Question about BTS optimum early growth strategy

Warlord Sam

2500 hours and counting..
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Oct 27, 2001
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Hello there, fellow Civvers!

I'm just curious if someone a bit more mathematically minded than myself could have a look at this post in the academy:

http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/earlygrowth.php

I am curious how (if) the changes in BTS affect this analysis, assuming we ignore random events. Are chopping values still the same? (I seem to recall the change involving mathematics tech but I'm not sure if that was a change from Civ 3 to Civ 4 or a patch or an expansion or what..)

In particular, I almost always play on Epic speed so I understand that it changes things a bit, but I can't begin to break down things mathematically so if anyone enjoys this sort of thing as a hobby, I'd love for you to help me out.

Thanks much!
 
Choping yields 20 Hammer on Normal now. 30 when you teched Mathematics.

Playing on Epic should not change much. Unit/Research costs, chops, whips and worker jobs are scaled with the speed - everything *1.5 for epic i think. Basicly Epic speed makes unit movement 'cheaper' as you have more turns avaiable.
 
Basically what I'm asking is this:

Is it still true that worker worker settler using chopping is the optimum early game strategy as far as effective use of turns and hammers, as originally demonstrated in this article?

If anyone is mathematically inclined and could figure out if this holds true with the changes to BTS, disregarding random events, I'd appreciate it.
 
i have never thought that the optimum growth is the way to go. first it assumes you start with mining but don't start with hunting (you don't want a warrior guarding your settler.) second, chopping trees is now much more advantageous after mathematics. it also assumes that you have about ten trees in bts. you stay at size one for the first 30 turns or something, which significantly hurts your growth. also, it doesn't take into account coastal starts with seafood.
 
IF you want to bring out your first settle ASAP this still would be the fastes way to do it. The question IF making the settles ASAP is the best strategy is another one - that depends on many things.
 
There are times when getting the first settler out ASAP is not necessarily the best.

I haven't played many games on Immortal, but I have found on that level, and to some extent on Emperor, that getting the first settler out too quickly can involve too much risk ... if you are going to go the chop route, you have to research Bronze Working. You may also need to research techs like Agriculture and Animal Husbandry, and lacking copper in the capital, hunting and archery for defense (because the barbs show up quick and in numbers). Quite a few archers may be necessary to defend both cities, causing some military upkeep plus the maintenance on the second city, slowing techrate.

Add this in, plus the necessity of either getting pottery for some cottages, or writing for libraries(expensive) and scientists (cut production), and just allowing the capital to grow to size 4 or 5 while building military and allowing the worker to improve tiles (mines, pastures, farms) rather than chop wood can give a more manageable start.

BTW, I am not suggesting you should not build a library and run some scientists ... that is a good idea just to get an early Great Scientist. Just that if you get in a position where the tech rate is slow early on a high level, you may not have the hammers to spare on a library and specialists.

I used to use the worker/chop worker/both chop settler strategy a lot. Especially on Vanilla (when chopping before math was stronger). Now, I tend to make sure I get the capital growing and its tiles developed. Getting the capital up to size 5 or 6 very quickly, working all improved tiles will allow building more workers and settlers quite quickly, and this is when I tend to start chopping settlers. This allows time to build some military and tech pottery and the wheel so that one (or both) of the first 2 cities can be working cottages just about right away to pay for more expansion, more military, and a higher tech rate.

Up to Emperor level for sure, it is not necessary to always have the 'optimum' early game strategy. But it is important to have a strong strategy and not make big mistakes that set you way back. Some examples of big mistakes:

Starting with a settler for your first build. This is a mistake because a second city won't help nearly as much as having a worker improve the capital's tiles. After the Settler, you still need to build a worker, and it will be a long time before your capital (or your second city) produces much at all.

Growing to size 3 or 4 before building a worker (excepting the case of having fishing and a couple seafood tiles where it is ok, even ideal). With no seafood tiles, building warriors and scouts (have even seen people start with barracks as first build) until your city grows bigger than size 2 is again a very big mistake because extra unimproved tiles aren't worth much. It is occassionally a good idea to grow to size 2 before starting on a worker, but don't delay it any further.

Even when using the worker/chop worker/ both chop settler strategy (which is still good in the right cases), it is usually better for the initial worker to improve a strong resource tile (if you have the tech) before starting to chop. Any tile that provides 5 or 6 Food + Hammers improved should be improved before chopping. If you have 2 such tiles, and are going to build worker 2nd, you only have to improve 1 because you can't work both at size 1. Tiles that should be improved ASAP are copper, pigs, sheep, cows, corn, wheat, and rice if it is on a fresh water tile. If you have 2 such tiles, and the tech to improve them, I would suggest improving both and growing to size 2 before chopping the second worker. Example: you start with Agriculture and have a riverside corn tile, then with BW, copper shows up in capital. Improve both and start on a warrior while you grow to size 2.
 
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=248435

Quite often you can adapt this if you want a settler out asap(grow to size 2 or 4(and whip 2 pop)), if circumstances dictate it(close neighbour rush to get copper). This gives best long term production though. Basically after the first worker you don't want to produce any workers or settlers cept when at happy cap. Worker worker settler cost alot of trees. This strategy can still use all those threes but it gets out way higher base production way sooner.

Basically taking your time yeild longer return in the long run and is proably optimal, except when it is not... It ends up depending alot on the titles around you...

If you can get alot of workboats starting with those might be an idea...
 
IF you want to bring out your first settle ASAP this still would be the fastes way to do it. The question IF making the settles ASAP is the best strategy is another one - that depends on many things.

My point was mainly that it was very leader and map dependent strategy. i think getting a setller out first is only really benficial on immortal/deity when it is often key to make a land grab.
 
Thank you guys so much, not only answered my question thoroughly but directed me to other strategies that are interesting :) I love this community!
 
My point was mainly that it was very leader and map dependent strategy. i think getting a setller out first is only really benficial on immortal/deity when it is often key to make a land grab.

Why a deity player wouldn't make a worker FIRST, and THEN just quickly chop a settler mystifies me.

And how he can even survive on deity with the settler-first strategy actually just boggles my mind.
 
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