Question about native German speakers

[Lotus49]

I have to say I'm not baffled by many things, but there is indeed something that has been baffling me for many years, and I can't contain my stupefaction any longer. So, I come to ask the question here, at a community that can hopefully clarify this phenomenon.

It simply blows my mind that (so many) native German speakers cannot annunciate the 'w' and 'th' sounds in English. It vexes me. Now listen, I had a couple years of German class (as well as Spanish) a long time ago, and I could easily make any sound each language had to offer, with the best of 'em. I'm not sure I could make those clicking sounds in certain African languages, but I probably could if I applied myself. Aside from that though, it's all cake. It's CAKE, I tell you... how could anyone in Europe not be able to annunciate any other sound from another European language? We're all from the same language family, so wHAT's THE STINKIn' DEAL, MAN?!

Anyway, I'm telling you - I just can't deal with this anymore. I apologize.


Hey, wait a second... in French, the word for 'yes' starts with the afore mentioned 'w'-type sound, right? So what, what would it be like if the whole nation of France stood up and said, "We can't pronounce 'Ja', and that's all there is to it". How would that be received? You see, YOU SEE how twisted this gets?! Man something is just not right here, and it ain't just me.

Ugh, that's it. I said it. I've been holding that in for years. I guess I just got done watching The Terminator, and it finally sent me over the edge.

 

[Thorbal]

The "w" thingy is not that common anymore, but the "th" one certainly is. I have to admit that im not always pronouncing it correctly as well. I think the reason is that this sound does simply not exist in the German language. And if you don´t get to know it while you´re very young, it can be quite difficult to pronounce. And this works both ways. For example, most English speakers have really big problems pronouncing the German "ch/sch" and the Umlauts.

 

[Marla_Singer]

Should it blow my mind that (so many) native English speakers aren't able to say the French "r" and "u" correctly ?

Similarly to the English "th" sound, these are complicated sounds which aren't easy to learn if you haven't been raised as a baby in an environment where everyone was doing it. I don't blame more Germans for their English "th" than I blame Americans for their French "u". It's not something that easy to master.

 

[Mise]

I find it very easy to mimic other people's accents -- I'd imagine that's got something to do with the fact that I can pronounce foreign words well. Learning the rest of the language I can't do though...

 

[Lotus49]

Should it blow my mind that (so many) native English speakers aren't able to say the French "r" and "u" correctly ?

Similarly to the English "th" sound, these are complicated sounds which aren't easy to learn if you haven't been raised as a baby in an environment where everyone was doing it. I don't blame more Germans for their English "th" than I blame Americans for their French "u". It's not something that easy to master.

Marla, the only thing blowing my mind at the moment is WHY do some people put a space between the final letter of a sentence and the punctuation mark?!

So many things... so many things that I do not understand.

I'm going to retire now, maybe the world will be less baffling when I awake. Btw, I used to know a highly educated, intelligent man from Denmark (who spoke/typed English as well as you'll find on internet forums), and even though I was constantly trying to tell him -- he always spelled 'sure' with an 'h' (shure). That was HIS fatal flaw. You see, everyone has it... that fatal flaw. That's what gets me.

 

[Marla_Singer]

I find it very easy to mimic other people's accents -- I'd imagine that's got something to do with the fact that I can pronounce foreign words well. Learning the rest of the language I can't do though...

Actually, you find it very easy because you're used to the English way of speaking, perspectives are very different when you're a foreign native speaker.

For instance, Hollywood actors are great performers, but if there's something where they suck, that would be in doing French accent. Sorry, but each time I hear an English speaking actor pretending to have a French accent, I just don't even realize he's supposed to have one.

English speakers can work on their French "r" sound, but most of them will really have a hard time to express a correct French "u" (similar to the German "ü" or "y"). Most English speakers who've been living in France for decades aren't able to pronounce them correctly.

The thing is that a baby grows up in an environment where he only hear a limited number of sound that a Human being can express. He gets used to a specific way to make sound, and once learnt, only these sounds feel "natural" to pronounce. A grown up will need to make specific efforts in order to express correctly newer sounds.

 

[Thorbal]

And wouldn´t it be very boring without accents ?

 

[Marla_Singer]

Marla, the only thing blowing my mind at the moment is WHY do some people put a space between the final letter of a sentence and the punctuation mark?!

And WHY do Americans use a dot instead of a comma between units and decimals?

Conventions of writings are different from a country to another. Even if I agree that in writing in another language you have to adapt yourself to these language's conventions, I find it awfully self-centered to consider that your own conventions are necessarily superior to others conventions.

I'm going to retire now, maybe the world will be less baffling when I awake. Btw, I used to know a highly educated, intelligent man from Denmark (who spoke/typed English as well as you'll find on internet forums), and even though I was constantly trying to tell him -- he always spelled 'sure' with an 'h' (shure). That was HIS fatal flaw. You see, everyone has it... that fatal flaw. That's what gets me.

Actually, It's rather silly to consider pronunciation as a sign of intelligence. If that would be the case, then Chinese people should probably think Westerners are complete idiots.

 

[Marla_Singer]

Anyway, it's true that the United States is a rather wide and populous country which is relatively isolated from foreign influences. This makes it easy to understand why Americans aren't really exposed to foreign languages. As such, it's understandable that they have issues to think of realities outside their own language perspective.

Now, the thing I'm convinced about is that language is a kind of jail in the meaning that it limits one's thoughts to what the language can express. That's probably the reason why I believe it's so much important to learn foreign languages, this actually opens up your brain. Having the experience of practising a foreign language in an environment where it's the mainstream language makes you really understand how relative is your country's perception of the world.

As a matter of fact, most of cultural misunderstandings between different countries aren't due of one being right an the other one being hypocritical and evil. Most of them are actually the results from different interpretations or different perceptions of realities.

 

[Mise]

Actually, you find it very easy because you're used to the English way of speaking, perspectives are very different when you're a foreign native speaker.

For instance, Hollywood actors are great performers, but if there's something where they suck, that would be in doing French accent. Sorry, but each time I hear an English speaking actor pretending to have a French accent, I just don't even realize he's supposed to have one.

English speakers can work on their French "r" sound, but most of them will really have a hard time to express a correct French "u" (similar to the German "ü" or "y"). Most English speakers who've been living in France for decades aren't able to pronounce them correctly.

The thing is that a baby grows up in an environment where he only hear a limited number of sound that a Human being can express. He gets used to a specific way to make sound, and once learnt, only these sounds feel "natural" to pronounce. A grown up will need to make specific efforts in order to express correctly newer sounds.

Apparently I'm one of the few non-french speakers who pronounce "Laure" (or however the french version of Laura is spelt) correctly. But she may have been being polite.

You're of course correct, though, that French (etc) accents tend to get converted into an "Anglicised" version, where the syllables and sounds are turned into an "equivalent" spelling in English (which is why most people call her "Lore"/"Law"), that is almost never satisfactory. I don't do this -- I just mimic the sounds like a parrot, rather than converting the sounds into an english equivalent.

 

[uppi]

It simply blows my mind that (so many) native German speakers cannot annunciate the 'w' and 'th' sounds in English. It vexes me. Now listen, I had a couple years of German class (as well as Spanish) a long time ago, and I could easily make any sound each language had to offer, with the best of 'em. I'm not sure I could make those clicking sounds in certain African languages, but I probably could if I applied myself. Aside from that though, it's all cake. It's CAKE, I tell you... how could anyone in Europe not be able to annunciate any other sound from another European language? We're all from the same language family, so wHAT's THE STINKIn' DEAL, MAN?!

Despite what you might think, you would probably instantly recognizable as a native English speaker if you tried to speak German to a native German speaker. I just have never met any native English speaker with accent-free German, although some of them have been in Germany for decades.

Especially if you have learned a language from a teacher, who is not a native speaker himself, the sounds you have learned in class might already have been the English-accent-version of the real German sounds.

 

[Marla_Singer]

Apparently I'm one of the few non-french speakers who pronounce "Laure" (or however the french version of Laura is spelt) correctly. But she may have been being polite.

You're of course correct, though, that French (etc) accents tend to get converted into an "Anglicised" version, where the syllables and sounds are turned into an "equivalent" spelling in English (which is why most people call her "Lore"/"Law"), that is almost never satisfactory. I don't do this -- I just mimic the sounds like a parrot, rather than converting the sounds into an english equivalent.

That's not really what I meant. The thing is that one's perception of language sounds is different considering the language environment he's been raised in.

To tell it differently, a French speaker hearing Japanese won't perceive the language sounds with as much details as a Japanese speaker will hear them. When hearing Japanese, the French speaker I've talked about will hear "Watashimakimotowishuzimakubizumu" or something like that, but the Japanese speaker would actually hear the different sounds with much more distinctive details. It's those details which totally disappear in the foreign interpretation of the language, or even of its accent.

Actually, this is not specific to languages, everything in life works this way. When you know absolutely nothing about how a car works and you open the hood to check the engine, you will see some kind of big dark gray block with wires everywhere. When you're a mechanic, you'll see it with a lot more details. With languages, it's exactly the same.

No matter how good I'll be in English, I'll never be able to differenciate the various English accents as a native speaker will. And no matter how good you'll be in German, you'll never be able to differenciate the various German accents as a native speaker will.

 

[Synobun]

I am native from Belgium, and I STILL can't pronounce the 'th' sound. Live with it.

 

[Mise]

That's not really what I meant. The thing is that one's perception of language sounds is different considering the language environment he's been raised in.

To tell it differently, a French speaker hearing Japanese won't perceive the language sounds with as much details as a Japanese speaker will hear them. When hearing Japanese, the French speaker I've talked about will hear "Watashimakimotowishuzimakubizumu" or something like that, but the Japanese speaker would actually hear the different sounds with much more distinctive details. It's those details which totally disappear in the foreign interpretation of the language, or even of its accent.

Actually, this is not specific to languages, everything in life works this way. When you know absolutely nothing about how a car works and you open the hood to check the engine, you will see some kind of big dark gray block with wires everywhere. When you're a mechanic, you'll see it with a lot more details. With languages, it's exactly the same.

No matter how good I'll be in English, I'll never be able to differenciate the various English accents as a native speaker will. And no matter how good you'll be in German, you'll never be able to differenciate the various German accents as a native speaker will.

Ahh, I see what you mean. Never having learnt a language fluently I don't think I can fully appreciate the nuances you describe, so I'll just take your word for it.

 

[Bill3000]

There's a rather simple answer. Those sounds don't exist in the language, so it's harder for a non-native speaker to use it.

With that said, I knew a German who spoke english like an utter native - a perfect Hiberno-English accent. Needless to say, speaking as an American who got a C in French and is teh such at languages, I was surprised.

 

[willemvanoranje]

No matter how good I'll be in English, I'll never be able to differenciate the various English accents as a native speaker will. And no matter how good you'll be in German, you'll never be able to differenciate the various German accents as a native speaker will.

Well, some people just have a talent. Out of a 100, 99 will always have some accent. The remaining one can adapt. It's hard though. After a year in Brazil I had reached a pretty good level of accent, which was even identifyable as coming from the city I was from.. when I tried to speak Dutch again after eleven months, all kinds of strange sounds came from my mouth. My mouth just wasn't used to it anymore. Now it's the other way around again. My Portuguese is still pretty good, but there must be a horrible Dutch accent in it by now. There's just too many limitations.

Now, I have a talent for languages, also in pronounciation. The only two languages I can speak completely accent free though, are Dutch and German. You'll not be surprised that those are my mother-tongues. My English is of a high level, but you can still recognise I'm Dutch as soon as a sentence of more than three words comes out of my mouth.

 

[ohcrapitsnico]

Is the umlaut u in german simlar sounding to the chinese u umlaut as in rain, I would write in chinese but this comp doesn't have it.

 

[Thorbal]

I don´t know any Chinese, but there is a similar sound(s) indeed. You could look here and click on "Jürgen", or "Günther" , etc., perhaps this is what you meant. These are pronounciatian examples for German names.

 

[Swedishguy]

Could the OP please say "enkelriktad" in proper swedish?

 

[Lotus49]

Despite what you might think, you would probably instantly recognizable as a native English speaker if you tried to speak German to a native German speaker. I just have never met any native English speaker with accent-free German, although some of them have been in Germany for decades.

Especially if you have learned a language from a teacher, who is not a native speaker himself, the sounds you have learned in class might already have been the English-accent-version of the real German sounds.

Type a sentence in German, and I'll upload a .wav file. I bet I could pass. But more to the POINT... I can certainly annunciate everything correctly (since day 1 in Deutsch Klasse), although after all these years I probably won't know what I'm saying.

Could the OP please say "enkelriktad" in proper swedish?

I don't speak Swedish, but if I did you can bet I'd do so impecably.


Now, quit trying to turn the tables. I told you in the OP that could do better than those whom I accuse of not trying hard enough to make noises with their mouths correctly. I am German-blooded, and it baffles me that my relatives from das alte Land can't pronounce 'w', 'wh', 'th' sounds in English. I still am baffled, and it would seem that I'm just going to have to remain so.