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Question about Research Agreements

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by JamesCivFan, Nov 11, 2013.

  1. JamesCivFan

    JamesCivFan King

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    Hello, I have a question regarding Research Agreements in BNW. Do Great Scientists' "Discover Technology" feature count as "research you have produced" for the RA or not?

    In civilopedia, it says that the amount of research you gain from an RA, is dependent to the amount of research produced by you and your partner. So, if I gain 2500 beakers all at once, using a GS, will it count towards that? Or am I better off settling him down to an academy?
     
  2. Jaybe

    Jaybe civus fanaticus Supporter

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    With the fall patch the RA rules have changed, but the 'pedia was not updated. From what I recall, its BASIC benefit is limited to the LESSER of the two civs.

    Re your actual question: don't know/recall.
    If you have the lesser science, please:
    1) find out
    2) reload and choose the alternate GScientist choice
    3) report back. ;)
     
  3. JamesCivFan

    JamesCivFan King

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    I will do it in my next game, at an earlier phase, where the load times are better. My laptop is rather old and runs slowly after turn 200 or so. But, yes, I shall definitely report when I have the answer. It's a detail, but an important one.
     
  4. GoStu

    GoStu King

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    Can anyone post an explanation of how the RA works in general? All I know about it is that it's "money goes in, science comes out", but how much science I'm not sure of. I also don't really know the value of anything that increases RA gain, because I understand it's limited in some way by the weaker partner.
     
  5. Tabarnak

    Tabarnak R.I.P.

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    RAs suck really bad now, at least for immortal. I don't know about deity but i'm still thinking that they nerfed them way too much this time. But deity is deity, you can do anything you want with the AI and jump ahead thanks to their awesome intelligence.

    This should be an average of 2 civs instead. So the lowest techer has some little advantage.

    At immortal, they gave me only a single turn each of research among the all game(7-8 RAs total). ONLY A SINGLE TURN!!!

    Don't sign RAs....keep your gold to rush buy science buildings instead. You gonna get more by doing this. Anyways, it still sucks when you have to pay 100 or 200 extra gold because you are far away and still got a single turn or research...:(
     
  6. YourHarry

    YourHarry Chieftain

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    What I understand:

    Prior to the fall patch, the amount of science boost you get from RA is half of the median value of all available research (at the time of RA completion). For example, say when RA is done you can research following techs:

    1. Animal Husbandary (Costs 70 science)
    2. Writing (Costs 100 science)
    3. Mining (Costs 80 Science)

    The median science value is 80 science. So your RA gives you half of this = 40 science.

    The way RA works changed after the fall patch. Tech leaders gain less from RAs, while tech laggers gain as much as before (therefore, relatively more compared to competition). Basically, you get the minimum of what you or your partner would have gained prior to the patch.

    So RAs can be used to catch up, if you are behind. If you are ahead, you should be reluctant to sign them.
     
  7. phillipwyllie

    phillipwyllie Wannabe Deity

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    Pre-patch:
    The bonus for each player is calculated as 50% of the median Science value for all of the technologies that player can currently research.
    Post-patch:
    The calculation is done as pre-patch but the lesser of the 2 bonuses is applied to both civs participating in a RA.

    This bonus can be increased by acquiring the Rationalism Social Policy, or by building the Porcelain tower Wonder.
     
  8. JamesCivFan

    JamesCivFan King

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    Yes, I knew about the median tech bonus. So, you're saying it's about the median value of the available techs, like old times, except that you get the least possible amount of research, right?

    For example, if by the time the RA finishes, and you have 3 techs available that need 6, 7, and 8 turns of research, you will get beakers equivalent to that of the 7 turn tech? (If you have both the PT and the Social Policy from Rationalism, meaning you get 100% of that value). Please correct me if I am wrong.
     
  9. EK834

    EK834 Prince

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    (I play on Emperor, it's only my 3rd game on the level since BNW, so I'm still adjusting to a science strategy without the GL)

    When a few AI is not much behind and you don't want it to be able to interfere with building Wonders and such it's still worth considering RA, at the least with the right Wonders and SP to boost them (with which you still collect substantially more than the other partner). Otherwise it could well be the #2-#3 techers that start signing a few and gradually eat up your lead, and getting them to hate each other and so they stop signing DoFs and RAs isn't always possible.

    I still tend to refuse them if I'm ahead and the AIs breathing down my neck has no other fairly advanced friend to sign one with, but it depends a lot of the situation I'm in. E.g: beside their nerfing they're now fairly difficult to torpedo if AIs have them since it now takes a DOW to void them (so you need to get one of the partners to DoW the other, and they almost always refuse to be bribed no matter what once they signed a RA, even the few you can normally convince to backstab a friend for the right high price). If your neighbor in the game start signing multiple RAs, it's goodbye to any possibility of bribing anyone to DoW him as they now just Denounce, at best. I managed to trick Genghis a few times into declaring war on CS that I knew were protected by AIs he refused to DoW directly, but if he had a RA with one of the protectors, that indirect trick also failed. So I sometimes sign RAs to prevent other Civs from getting those virtual non agression pacts with one another, or in order to get one to avoid a DoW that would make me lose time (especially when I have beliefs that work only while at peace)... at least if I don't have a higher priority for the gold) or just to strenghten my own relationships (the same reason I might occasionally sign a "useless" and risky Defensive Pact)

    If I play for a SV or beelining an "endgame" tech like Internet or Globalization and I'm ahead and rich enough (I have all my RL, and enough money in the bank or gpt that buying the spaceship when I need to isn't an issue), I'll often agree to all RAs or even seek them, simply to make the game end faster, keeping the AI peaceful as a bonus.

    But in Raw science benefits, it's true they're not worth much anymore if you're ahead or can't sign one with a runaway civ, to slowly eat up the gap between you.
     
  10. EK834

    EK834 Prince

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    Only if you're behind your signing partner. Otherwise it's his amount of beakers calculated on his median that you both get, then for you it will be adjusted for your SP and the PT. If his median is 9000 beakers and yours is 30000, you get from 4500 beakers to 9000 (with the right stuff) but he will get from 4500 to 6250 (if he has the SP too). It's designed now so the lesser partner gets larger benefits to catch up, while the leading partner gets a smaller boost 'for helping a friend'. The fairest RA are thus between relatively similar partners, and still quite good if you have the boosters and are trying to catch up a runaway or two. You can gain far more for signing them with tech leaders... but only if you still have good hopes and a strategy to eventually catch up, otherwise you might close the gap a bit but too late, and it'll just help the runaway to win faster. Signing them with a stronger Civ that has the PT and Rationalism SP is usually a no-no unless you have a plan in mind to cripple them and increasing their science lead isn't too dangerous (eg: I signed one with the runaway as I knew he was beelining at the bottom and toward getting the Great Firewall, while our RA + 1 bought GS with Faith were the key to getting me in time to Globalization and a diplo win. Thank you Bismarck).

    Signing a RA with a civ behind you is quite a bit of a gamble. Sometimes you could get lucky and they'll be beelining at the top of tree, in effect they're behind you in number of techs but the ones they have available are more expensive than the median of those you can research. But the amount you get can also be quite ridiculous if they're quite behind.
     
  11. KrikkitTwo

    KrikkitTwo Immortal

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    It has Nothing to do with median tech.
    (that was in G+K/Vanilla)

    In BNW, the science you get depends on the science generated by the two partners over the time of the RA

    After the fall patch, they made it strictly based on whoever produces the Least Science.

    However, boosters (Porcelain Tower/Rationalism policy) apply to that base amount, so they let you get more than the other civ.

    (they also fixed a bug where science from RAs counted in science for future RAs.. or something like that)
     
  12. Browd

    Browd Dilettante Administrator

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    Actually the median tech mechanism was just in vanilla.
     
  13. phillipwyllie

    phillipwyllie Wannabe Deity

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    Is it the accumulation of 30 turns worth of science now?
     
  14. Browd

    Browd Dilettante Administrator

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    The RA output is measured over 30 turns, based on the combined research output of the two civs (ignoring other RA pay-offs and GS bulbs). Starting in G&K and continuing in BNW until the latest patch, base RA yield (before the 50% boosts from Porcelain Tower and Scientific Revolution) would generally equate to 5x your average beaker production over the 30 turns. Since your reward was effectively capped by your contributoin to the RA, you gained nothing extra by doing an RA with a science runaway or science peer, but really benefited by doing RAs with players with lower beaker production.

    However, the Fall Patch now caps base RA yield at the beaker production of the lesser partner in the RA, so now you are effectively penalized when doing RAs with science laggards. (As stated in the Fall Patch notes: "Both Civs will now only get the minimum of the two beaker counts (to balance out Rich getting Richer mechanic weakness).")
     
  15. GoStu

    GoStu King

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    So the social policy and the Porcelain Tower apply AFTER the cap is worked out? That makes them much better than I thought: I thought it might just be contributing to "overkill" or some such.

    It's still kind of obnoxious that they won't tie a breakdown of what the result was and how it was calculated to the little toast showing the RA is done. All it would have to say is "Your Research Agreement with X is complete, granting you XXXXX Science!" with a quick breakdown on how that number was reached.
     
  16. _alphaBeta_

    _alphaBeta_ King

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    So there's no way to tell how much the RA generated for you unless you manually calculate your beaker delta from the turn before the RA is ready to the turn after?

    In BNW terms, assuming no other wonder or social policy modifiers:

    Post-Fall patch:
    Column 1 Column 2 Column 3
    Beakers Generated During Agreement Beakers Awarded
    CivA
    200​
    50%*200=100
    CivB
    500​
    50%*200=100


    Pre-Fall Patch
    Column 1 Column 2 Column 3
    Beakers Generated During Agreement Beakers Awarded
    CivA
    200​
    50%*700=350
    CivB
    500​
    50%*700=350


    Is this correct?
     
  17. joncnunn

    joncnunn Senior Java Wizard Moderator

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    On the first question, yes, someone needs to do that in a Single Player game and report back. But unless there was a major increase in science that very turn, it's not very noticeable.

    As to the chart; that is correct. Normally AIs way behind have poor science yields and so are bad RA partners. But whichever AIs are towards the top can be ok partners, especially if you build PT.
     
  18. Browd

    Browd Dilettante Administrator

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    The arithmetic in the chart is not right, but the point you are trying to illustrate is directionally correct.

    Let me use some more realistic numbers. Let's say Civ A produces 3,000 beakers over the 30 turns (average is 100 bpt -- maybe their beaker count rose from 75 bpt to 125 bpt over the 30 turns). Civ B is far more advanced, generating 9,000 beakers over the 30 turns, or an average of 300 bpt.

    In G&K, and in BNW until the Fall Patch, the formula for base yield of an RA (before taking account of PT or Scientific Revolution bonuses) was

    50% * (your beaker count + min(your beaker count, RA partner beaker count))/6​
    So, for Civ A, that would be 50% * (3000 + 3000)/6, or 500 beakers, while for Civ B, that would be 50% * (9000 + 3000)/6, or 1,000 beakers.

    In current BNW, the RA yield is tied to the beaker generation of the "lesser" RA partner. Since there is no more averaging, the RA divisor is now 3, rather than 6, and the formula for both RA partners is
    50% * min(Civ A beakers, Civ B beakers)/3​
    In this example, both parties get base RA yield of 500 beakers (50% * min(3000, 9000)/3). If CivB has PT, then his yield is 750 beakers (another +25%). Adding Scientific Revolution would then yield him the 1000 beakers he would have gotten under the old formula BEFORE accounting for PT and Scientific Revolution bonuses.

    EDIT: Fixed the typo _alphabeta_ notes below. Thanks for the catch!
     
  19. _alphaBeta_

    _alphaBeta_ King

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    Thanks for the clarification. Just to note, the 500 beakers is correct per your explanation of the forumla, but the calculation you show in your post is dividing by 6. The point is made, however.

    So to update the table (using your example beaker counts):

    Pre-Fall Patch
    Column 1 Column 2 Column 3
    Beakers Generated During Agreement Beakers Awarded
    CivA
    3000​
    50% * (3000 + min(3000, 9000))/6 = 500
    CivB
    9000​
    50% * (9000 + min(9000, 3000))/6 = 1000


    Post-Fall patch:
    Column 1 Column 2 Column 3
    Beakers Generated During Agreement Beakers Awarded
    CivA
    3000​
    50% * min(3000, 9000)/3 = 500
    CivB
    9000​
    50% * min(3000, 9000)/3 = 500


    I suppose to mirror what's been said earlier, teaming up with the wrong partner can be costly. Regardless and on the plus side, you're still turning gold into beakers.
     
  20. player1 fanatic

    player1 fanatic Fanatic

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    So, essentially, you get 5 turns of your average research in last 30 turn, if you are weaker partner, or 5 turns of your partner's average research in last 30 turn, if he is weaker partner?

    All this without boosting policies/wonders.
     

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