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Question about Scientific Leader

floydian

Chieftain
Joined
Apr 24, 2002
Messages
8
Location
CA
I always thought u can get a leader only if u have used ur previous one , not to mention I rarely get scientific leaders at all. In my current game I have had 4 sofar(currently researching Music Theory) and got the last one while I had not used the 3rd one , so now have 2 scientific leaders ! (2 ALs) I wanna know if this can also happen with Military leaders and how many leaders u can have at the same time ?
 
Doesn't apply to MGL, but you can get a SGL while you have already one 'Einstein' sitting around. I don't know if this was intended - but overall chances to get a SGL are rather limited in comparison to getting a MGL anyways.
I mean you could *expect* 1 'offensive' MGL per turn if you were able to make 12 succesful elite attacks w/ HE every turn - OTOH, you could only get a tech every 4 turns, must have a monopoly on that tech and then there's only a chance of 3%(5%). At 5%, you could expect 5 SGL from 100 monopoly techs within (min) 400 turns - in the same time, you could try to harvest a really impressive amount of MGLs.
So it makes some sense to be able to have 2 SGL at the same time (i.e. avoid a 'wasted chance' for a SGL).
 
Even if you discovered all 84 techs with a scientific civ (which is nearly impossible), you have only a chance of 41% that you get 5 or more leaders (only 24 % for non-scientific civ, that's why I like scientific civs) so the number of SGLs is very limited.
Not allowing more MGLs at the same time was a way to limit the number of MGLs you get, because in theory you could get hundreds of them(and some people invented a technique called "MGL farming" to gain hundreds of them). So, it also makes sense to not allow rush-building of wonders for MGLs, because it's some kind of exploit, because you can keep a small civ alive just to win against the units they produce every few turns.
 
Originally posted by socralynnek
Even if you discovered all 84 techs with a scientific civ (which is nearly impossible), you have only a chance of 41% that you get 5 or more leaders (only 24 % for non-scientific civ, that's why I like scientific civs) so the number of SGLs is very limited.

is the difficulty level a factor ? I usually play Monarch or Emperor, this time I am playing regent , have discovered all techs up to "steam power" except 3 of them and got 5 SGLs so far , is it only luck or ... ?
 
As far as I know, it's luck. But on higher difficulty levels, you wouldn't have that tech lead, so you get more SGL in lower levels.
But it doesn't matter if you the first to discover 50 techs in Chieftain or in deity, you have the same chances of getting SGLs.
 
SGL's ruin the Play By E-mail and other Multiplayer types. The scientific leader is too much based on luck. Especially when someone gets a SGL early on. Getting Pyramids or the Great Libary this way greatly shifts the game towards this player. All because of luck.

You'd get more military leaders in a game, simply because you have more fights with elite units than discoveries of new techs. So that was a bit more balancing.
 
So, maybe there should be an option of having no SGLs, at least in a multiplayer game or adjust the probabilities for multiplayer games (a probability of 100 % would surely make the game faster...)
 
Originally posted by Aggie
SGL's ruin the Play By E-mail and other Multiplayer types. The scientific leader is too much based on luck. Especially when someone gets a SGL early on. Getting Pyramids or the Great Libary this way greatly shifts the game towards this player. All because of luck. You'd get more military leaders in a game, simply because you have more fights with elite units than discoveries of new techs. So that was a bit more balancing.

How is getting the Great Library with a SGL more unbalancing than getting the Great Library with a MGL ?
What's more, before SGL, it was easiest to rush a wonder because a MGL is easier to get than a MGL.
Agreed, it might be harder to catch up with a player that gets a SGL, but it's a strategy... Getting first techs is risky, you devoid much money from units, no ? So you should be weaker...
 
Getting first in tech gives you a 3 or 5 % chance to get a SGL. So the chance is almost zero. Overall you should be expecting not more than 1 SGL per game (the expected number when you are first to 20 to 30 techs). Getting a military GL is 1/16 or 1/12 per elite victory. There can be quite a few elite units around, which makes the chase for TGL's less of a gamble. I'd say that you should be able to get 4 to 6 TGL's in a game.


I do agree that it is a cool idea to have some sort of reward for being first in tech. But imho a 3 to 5% chance of a SGL is not it.
 
Originally posted by Aggie
SGL's ruin the Play By E-mail and other Multiplayer types. The scientific leader is too much based on luck. Especially when someone gets a SGL early on. Getting Pyramids or the Great Libary this way greatly shifts the game towards this player. All because of luck.

You'd get more military leaders in a game, simply because you have more fights with elite units than discoveries of new techs. So that was a bit more balancing.

I don't agree that getting the Pyramids or Great Library "greatly shifts the game towards this player." If that player is surrounded by Tundra or Jungles, they are still very much at a disadvantage. Getting the Pyramids through a SGL, like you said, can help them out by keeping another, more location-fortuante player, from having them. So to me, it helps the peaceful, location-unfortuante civs have a chance at getting a great wonder.
 
I don't think that a player starting in tundra or marches will be the one with a shot on a tech at first. That will probably be the player with the better starting position and expansion.

What I find even more unfair, now I think about it, is that always is the same human player is first up. Suppose that player 1, 2 and 3 start researching tech A (all due in 4 turns). Player 2 and 3 will never be able to get the tech at first and therefore never have a shot at a SGL. It is already frustrating for a player 2 or 3 when you see that player 1 has the tech in the same turn and therefore gets all the good deals. A SGL chance makes this even worse.
 
Originally posted by Aggie
SGL's ruin the Play By E-mail and other Multiplayer types. The scientific leader is too much based on luck. Especially when someone gets a SGL early on. Getting Pyramids or the Great Libary this way greatly shifts the game towards this player. All because of luck.

You could easily have an agreement among the players: Using SGL on rushing Great Wonder aren't allowed or something like that.;)
 
I see what you are saying, and I guess I can't totally relate since I don't play C3C in multiplayer - only singlepalyer. I just like that MGL can't build GW anymore...less of a benefit to all the war mongers out there!
 
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