Question about war mongering

pdxmm

Chieftain
Joined
May 1, 2016
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Hello all so I should probably already know this considering how much I have played this game but I don't. I am wondering if certain civs come already viewed as a war monger like Shaka even before anything is done?

What I mean is I recently decided I wanted to be on the other side of a impi wave so I started up as Shaka. Now for me I have never been a war monger type and usually save all my warring for late game so this was going to be new. By turn 150ish on epic speed I felt ready for war so I bribed the AI right next to me to go to war with another which made them a backstabber. A few turns latter I joined in and took the city that was right next to me. About 20 turns latter I noticed the AI to the other side of me also had the backstabber flag on and I wanted that city anyways. I accepted a deal to start a joint war and I took that city as well which did kick that civ out of the game. Well after doing that the whole world hated me and I don't really understand why since what I did I have done before but granted much latter in the game. They hate me just because I was Shaka or because I knocked one out rather early instead of latter in the game?
 
Their hate has nothing to do with Shaka. They hate you because you took the last city from a civ. That always amount to a huge warmonger penalty. In general avoid taking last city from a civ unless that city happens to be a capital that you need for domination. Otherwise it is either better to not take the city or to set it up so that another AI or CS would capture that city.
 
Hello all so I should probably already know this considering how much I have played this game but I don't. I am wondering if certain civs come already viewed as a war monger like Shaka even before anything is done?

What I mean is I recently decided I wanted to be on the other side of a impi wave so I started up as Shaka. Now for me I have never been a war monger type and usually save all my warring for late game so this was going to be new. By turn 150ish on epic speed I felt ready for war so I bribed the AI right next to me to go to war with another which made them a backstabber. A few turns latter I joined in and took the city that was right next to me. About 20 turns latter I noticed the AI to the other side of me also had the backstabber flag on and I wanted that city anyways. I accepted a deal to start a joint war and I took that city as well which did kick that civ out of the game. Well after doing that the whole world hated me and I don't really understand why since what I did I have done before but granted much latter in the game. They hate me just because I was Shaka or because I knocked one out rather early instead of latter in the game?
You can always try liberating a city to reduce your warmonger penalty. But the penalty from eliminating a civ from the game is REALLY steep so I'm not sure it would help.

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Oh I thought that taking of the last city penalty was taken out of the game awhile ago, I guess I didn't understand that change. Well at least it was a capital city and I was going to be up to no good so the world was going to hate me sooner or latter. I was just surprised but anyways thank you for the answers.
 
No, all civs start with a base warmonger point of 0. I believe the only thing that affects your warmongering score is the act of capturing/conquering cities and declaring war on other civs, so your neighbors hate you because you took those 2 cities. Also, sorta off topic but I have no idea whether declaring war to a city state without actually harming them causes you to become a warmonger.
 
No, all civs start with a base warmonger point of 0. I believe the only thing that affects your warmongering score is the act of capturing/conquering cities and declaring war on other civs, so your neighbors hate you because you took those 2 cities. Also, sorta off topic but I have no idea whether declaring war to a city state without actually harming them causes you to become a warmonger.

If you declare war twice on city-states, you get the message "city states grow wary" which makes your resting points decrease with all the city-states who know you, at least until you complete quests for them.
So if you declare two wars, you'll see a city-state be at -20 influence the entire game.

I don't think the other civs care, same as when you declare war to steal workers from other civs. They don't hold a grudge, but there might be a limit to how many wars you can declare like that. It seems as long as you don't take cities, the consequences are pretty small.
 
First, wellcome to the dark side. We have cookies!

Warmongering score is part of "diplomacy score". Its a sum of good, "green" points and bad, "red" points.

Green can be things like:
- we traded recently. You bought or sold something. Or you gifted something
- you have shared religion
- we fought againts a commone enemy
- they liked your proposal in World Congress
- etc.

Red can be things like:
- they want (covet) your land
- they hated your proposal in World Congress
- you build a world wonder that they wanted
- you compete for the same city states (you become ally with CS that they wanted)
- ..

Warmonger is just one of many "red" modifiers. It also decays over time.

How big "red" number you get by warmongering?:
- simple DoW (declaration of war) is a small number
- taking city is "variable". It depends on total cities are on the map and on how many cities your victiom still has. IIRC formula is: (big number based on map type) / (number_of_cities_on_the_map * number_of_cities_victim_has)

So, if you victim has 20+ cities and you take one, noone will care much. But if its the last one, you get lots of "red" points.

By the way: city state counts as "civ with only 1 city left". So if you take CS, its lots of points.

Other don't hate you coz you are "Shaka", but because you have more "red" diplo points then "green" points.
 
Also, sorta off topic but I have no idea whether declaring war to a city state without actually harming them causes you to become a warmonger.
DOW on CS is a DOW, so a small red modifier to your warmonger score.

If you declare war twice on city-states, you get the message "city states grow wary" which makes your resting points decrease with all the city-states who know you, at least until you complete quests for them.
Not just lower resting point, but faster influence decay too. Quests do help with that part of the penalty!

Your 2nd CS DOW does not have any effect on diplomacy with the major civs. (Nothing beyond any other 2nd DOW, so a minor hit to your warmonger score.) CS, oddly enough, do not care either way about you conquering or liberating CS.

I don't think the other civs care, same as when you declare war to steal workers from other civs. They don't hold a grudge, but there might be a limit to how many wars you can declare like that. It seems as long as you don't take cities, the consequences are pretty small.
Right, you can make DOWs all game long. So long as you don’t take cities, DOWing on its own does not add up to much. Warmongering penalties degrade over time, and the penalties are significantly reduced early in the game.

By the way: city state counts as "civ with only 1 city left". So if you take CS, its lots of points.
Yes, but if you take a single CS early in the game, you will never notice the warmonger penalty from that.

Other don't hate you coz you are "Shaka", but because you have more "red" diplo points then "green" points.
Right. Also keep in mind that some civs, including Shaka, are not the least bit troubled by player warmongering!
 
Right. Also keep in mind that some civs, including Shaka, are not the least bit troubled by player warmongering!

Keep in mind that reaction is flavor weighted, and each flavor can vary up to +/-2 from that civ's base flavor, so different behaviors can show up from game to game.

Even knowing that, it can be somewhat jarring to see Shaka have "concerns" about my early warmongering. Really? You've conquered 3 CSs and you're worried about my warmongering? Such a hypocrite....
 
If you declare war twice on city-states, you get the message "city states grow wary" which makes your resting points decrease with all the city-states who know you, at least until you complete quests for them.
So if you declare two wars, you'll see a city-state be at -20 influence the entire game.

I very seldom declare war on CS's. Occasionally once in the early game to steal a worker. If I do that, will all the city states remember it and if I declare war again 300 turns later they all hate me? Or does the first one fade over time?

I will sometime capture a CS if they declare war on me, but I'm pretty sure that doesn't count for this (it does count for warmonger hate from the AI)

beetle said:
Also keep in mind that some civs, including Shaka, are not the least bit troubled by player warmongering!
I'm pretty sure Monty is the only one who doesn't care at all about warmongering. (He actually seems to like it)
 
I very seldom declare war on CS's. Occasionally once in the early game to steal a worker. If I do that, will all the city states remember it and if I declare war again 300 turns later they all hate me? Or does the first one fade ....
One DoW vs CS is a freebie. But just DoW and only one.

I will sometime capture a CS if they declare war on me, but I'm pretty sure that doesn't count for this (it does count for warmonger hate from the AI)
...
Yes. Both.

...I'm pretty sure Monty is the only one who doesn't care at all about warmongering. (He actually seems to like it)
Its he's Unique Ability :D
 
Really? You've conquered 3 CSs and you're worried about my warmongering? Such a hypocrite....
Even worse, several of the civs with the “they hate warmongers” description do not hesitate to DOW and kill off civs. Shaka is only a hypocrite some games. Pocatello is a hypocrite just about every game!

I very seldom declare war on CS's. Occasionally once in the early game to steal a worker. If I do that, will all the city states remember it and if I declare war again 300 turns later they all hate me? Or does the first one fade over time?
Please experiment and report back! I have been avoiding CS worker steals because it feels more important to keep in reserve the late game option to liberate a CS from a CS. I would love to have my cake and eat it too!

I will sometime capture a CS if they declare war on me, but I'm pretty sure that doesn't count for this (it does count for warmonger hate from the AI).
Correct, you have not DOW’d a CS -- so the CS are not offended. Yes, it does count for warmonger hate from the AI, and since you are eliminating a civ from the game, it is a severe penalty. It is one of the game mechanics the AIs do not understand, so they will not hesitate to kill off CS when at war with the allied AI.
 
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