Question concerning No palace bug!!

[pagh80]

I have now played a game to the end by using the no palace bug. It leaves my empire totaly corruption free and a lot easyer to play. I would like to know if my game will be accepted. I dont think i am the only one who have doubts about this so please reply on this....

 

[Smirk]

It obviously defeats the spirit of the game. And its obviously a bug. I'm not sure why there is any question in your mind weither it should be allowed. Was the gold bug of pre-patch questionable? (You know the one where you ask for 999999999 gold per turn and it accepts it, and you actually get it for one turn)

Clearly both of those are bugs, and both stand to give you a huge advantage.

I might make allowance for the first person who ran into this unintentionally, unless that person would win by some large margin.

My guess right now would be that the winner will have 7k+, maybe even 10k or more. So where did you game place?

 

[pagh80]

My score ended at 6799 and maybe your right it should not be allowed (not even by him who discovered it.). I AM about to play a new game without using the bug, but if it will be allowed i will submit my first savegame while im sure a lot of other people will exploit the bug too.
Hmm.. maybe there should be two GOTM in this month. One where your can use the bug and one where you cant.

 

[pvondrak]

How is this even an issue? Is there even a realistic chance of using that bug in the first place without reloading over and over until you get the results from a hut that you want, and you happen to stumble on his capital quickly and combat turns out just right? Somehow I doubt it, and if I'm right, you've already cheated. Plus, in order to learn of that trick from wizlock, who I'm sure just stumbled into this in complete innocence (yeah right), you had to have been reading the GOTM3 spoiler thread before starting that game, which is against the spirit of the game as well. Replaying the game now that you've already cheated also falls in that category, since you have even more advance knowledge of the game.

Gee, why don't you edit the game and give yourself all the techs and 20 cities to start with and see what your score is and submit it? Hey, why don't we have one GOTM where you do that in addition to the normal one?

*sigh*

 

[Cruise]

Well you did not discover the bug yourself. Someone discovered it and posted it,so you knew about it and purposely exploited this bug to obtain an advantage in ths game. This is considered cheating, so your game will not be accepted.

I'd say just try again and play with a palace

 

[pagh80]

Pvondrak do you have a bad day today or what??? If you had read the whole thread you can see that i am starting a new game without using the bug. I am not taking this game as seriously as you apparantly do AND I am playing this game for fun and to test myself against other civ players. As for reloading: i dont reload exept if i make a really stupid move, hitting a wrong key and so on or if i lose 5 or 6 swordsmen against a spearman. Furthermore. I am pretty sure that im not the only one who are reloading from time to time. Actually i think most people doing it.
You say it is cheating to start a new game or even read the spoiler talks on this site... COME ON!!! If i should listen to you i cant submit a game because it would be cheating.. Are you afraid i would have a better score than you or what??

To EEKthedog: Congratulation with your fine score in the first GOTM and i looking forward to see your score for this month GOTM. It was pretty impressive. Yes i have realized it would be (not cheating) but exploit to submit a game with the "no palace bug" And i am about to start a new game... I wonder have you NEVER EVER reloaded a game??

 

[wizlock]

i actually did find this bug/exploit as a total accident .. and i dont think my game will be super great because i lost like 1500 years in the beginning just fooling around with the japs .. and then it took maybe 20 turns before i realized that i didn't have any corruption .. so i lost a lot of momentum in the beginning ..

anyways, whatever score i get, i dont think my game should count in the competition .. just playing for the fun of it .. and for comparing playing style with others .. so when i've finished this game i'll probably start a new GOTM3 ... yeah i know .. now i know the map and what to do .. but like most (i guess) i'm playing GOTM just to compare not compete

wizlock the un-corruptioner

 

[Aeson]

If you read the rules of the GOTM it makes it very clear that reloading (and that would include replaying) isn't allowed. It isnt a contest to see who can reload until they get the best outcome. I screwed up and saved over my saves this month, so I wont be able to submit a GOTM3. I was doing quite well even (had the last city dead to rights whenever I wanted to take it at 250AD), and may have had a chance to claim a high score again. If replaying and reloading were allowed, the winner would always end up being whoever had the most spare time that month to play, and skill would have almost nothing to do with who won. Thats why I shouldnt be allowed to play again, as I know now that I could cut at least 20 turns off of my conquest, and it would be impossible to replay out the scenario perfectly to that point.

I admit that in non competition games I like to save and reload quite a bit. Not so much from a standpoint of getting a better result, as in seeing how a different approach would have affected the outcome. Its perfectly alright to play Civ3 in any way you like privately, but when playing a competition game, the whole point is to have people play by the rules and see how well they can do within those limits.

The line between exploits and cheats really isnt much of a difference. Just because there isnt a specific rule against a particular exploit doesnt mean that taking advantage of it isnt considered cheating. An example would be using a debugging program to modify values in the game memory. The rules mention not modifying the save files, but nothing about game memory. It would be relatively easy to find where the score was being held, and modify it to whatever you wanted. There is no mention of this being disallowed in the rules for the GOTM specifically, but common sense says that it would be cheating. With the no palace bug, Corruption is a large part of the game, and finding a way to nullify it outside of intended gaming strategies is cheating. Just the same as if you figured out a way to make your units invincible, or the previously mentioned pre-patch gold bug. If there were a rule stating that a particular exploit was allowed, then that would be the only time that using the exploit would not be considered cheating.

The very fact that several people admit to having found or used the no corruption bug seems to point to massive reloading/replaying of the game to get the desired effect. I tested with it a bit, to see how it works, and out of about 50 different tries, only 2 or 3 ended up working in an acceptable manner to continue the game from. 3 times I was able to conquer a city before my settler died or ran out of huts to pop. One of those times it took so long that I was so far behind that it didnt matter. There certainly are ways that it will work, and once I had found them, I could reproduce them. With how many people knew of this bug before the competition (roughly no one), and how strange of a starting scenario it entails, its suprising that even wiz stumbled into it in a competition game. Running your settler around without placing a city is just asking to get wiped out before you even start the game. Everyone else who achieves this obviously did it with prior knowlege of the game situation from the spoiler thread, and prior knowlege is the reason why replaying isnt allowed.

 

[Aeson]

Oh, one thing I found while testing the no palace bug (and the way that worked the best for me). If you build a city right off, then build an archer or two, and then disband your city by building a settler, it works the same way. I built one archer and then by the time that archer was in position to attack, the settler had been built and I was ready to go with a 2 attack elite (popped barbs) instead of a 1 attack vetran (best you can get from popping 3 barbs from a hut).

Just including this for anyone who was wondering (like me) or wants to use it in private games. Also another interesting thing I found, was that I was actually behind on this map by playing this way by about 300 years in the conquest of where I had been from the start. The power of no corruption doesnt matter much while you are pop-rushing, but anytime else it is HUGE. Also I found a way to combine this with getting an early settler as well, talk about over powered for a non-conquest game.

 

[pagh80]

I have always beleved (and hoped) that some part of the reason to make a GOTM is not just the score but also to be able to share your thoughts and stories how it goes so far with other. I like to read about how other people handle the game and maybe get some good ideas. If this NOT is the case (and i beleve it is, for a lot of the people playing it) it is just too bad...
Half the joy of playing it is to play the same game as other people and share your thoughts with them.
How about all the people posting threats about the game right now (including all of you), should they also be banned??

Aeson if you were so unlucky too delete your savegame i really think you should submit a game anyway i really cant see why not..

 

[pvondrak]

pagh80, I'm annoyed because you clearly don't get it.

Civ3 GOTM Rules

Code of Honor
Cheating and replaying of the game are not allowed. Playing the game with modified rules, using exploits such as the 1 million gold bug, editing a saved game using a save game editor, retiring to see the map, and reloading the game when things don't go the way you wanted are all considered cheating. Because we cannot check this, we'll have to trust in your good honesty. There is really no need to cheat because GOTM is meant as a casual contest.

I would have thought that was pretty clear. Let's just say that I'm big on honesty.

Yes i have realized it would be (not cheating) but exploit to submit a game with the "no palace bug" And i am about to start a new game... I wonder have you NEVER EVER reloaded a game??

I'll answer that I haven't reloaded a game for the purposes of the contest, even though that was directed to EEKthedog. You should realize that using an exploit is cheating.

While this is a casual competition, that just means I won't be serious about my final score, it doesn't mean I won't be serious about people blatently not following the spirit of the competition, and acting like it's no big deal because 'everyone does it'. That's an insult to those that feel an honor code actually means something, and is a major pet peeve of mine, in case you hadn't guessed. Besides, what does it hurt if your 4 swordsman get killed by 1 spearman and you just keep playing? It happens to everyone, right? Or at least, I thought it did, lol.

...

wizlock, if you really just discovered it, my apologies. It seems like the sort of thing that some clever person would've figured out playing around with the editor

...

Regarding your last post pagh80, couldn't you just give the game a good natured honest attempt, see how you do, come back here, talk about it, and try again on your own implementing new tactics? I'd argue that playing the same game others are playing is nearly all of the fun of it, at least for me.

I also think that trying things on my own first and then attempting to learn from my mistakes is better experience than just being told what works first. That's why in school they actually give you homework and wait until you're done before giving you the answers. In a job, training usually consists of practice runs in addition to the instruction.

Just a suggestion, but why don't you at least try to play the next one by the books? You might find you enjoy it even more, because it doesn't really matter if things go poorly. Do your best, come back here and learn how you can do better! If you find that still doesn't appeal to you, at least you'd have given it a shot...

 

[Dirty Clint]

Happy new year guys. I have just come back from a wife - free golfing vacation and am reading this post with a tinge of sadness.
I couldn't agree more with what Aeson and pvondrak have to say on the subject of cheating and exploits. Since reading about the corruption free exploit I went and tested it myself as Aeson did. It may be possible to chance upon it once but the odds of replicating it are astronomical and it can only be replicated by reloading ( cheating). I believe strongly in an honour code whether a competition is for fun or not and it's good to see that there are others here who feel likewise. What happened to card cheats in the American wild west who didn't follow the code? Answer - look at my signature, lol. I never reload a save, or replay a previously seen map, not just because it's the rules but because it's not in the spirit of the game and I also feel that i'm cheating myself. Use Aeson as an example, he could have kept quiet about losing his saves and relayed the game but he didn't.
That is playing in the spirit of the game, Aeson I feel for you buddy, gonna miss your score.
Finaly, when it comes to multiplayer (and it's coming) those who have used reload and exploits to score high scores will be blown out of the water by the players who have learned by their mistakes and played through them to become better players.

Lets have some great competition and fun, but lets also stick to the rules and have a level playing field.

PS, sorry if i'm preaching but it's also a pet peeve of mine

 

[Matrix]

Dirty Clint, thanks for the...preaching. I was gone the last 7 days, otherwise I would've intervened myself. Indeed, it's an honour thing. If I notice someone using whatever cheat there is (which includes taking advantage of a bug), (s)he won't show up in the results. And that's just according to the rules stated on the GOTM pages.

 

[pagh80]

After read all this posts i have been convinced and realized that there are some guys outhere who dont manipulate the game in any way. Beleve me or not it actually made me happy and changed my mind about how to play this game. Next month i will try to play the game without reloading(well.. this month it is pretty much too late).

Because i have comed forward with this threat(and taking all the beating for it ) i´m not the only one who have reloaded the game nor would i be the last..
I have never read the rules of the game.. actually i did´nt know there was rules about loading\reloading, reading the spoiler threats before playing the game and start the game more than one time. Now i know, and i will try too keep to them.
As for the posts: it was some good and convinsing ones, though it was a bit annoying to read your first post pvondrak. I just say, if you think it is cheating(as i have realised it is) just say it in a decent way.. i can acually also understand that.... but no hard fealings..

 

[Matrix]

Good to hear that, pagh80!

[sigh] If only I could replay the GOTM02...

 

[Hobbes]

Just for laughs.

 

[OneInTen]

Well, just IMO, it's not technically a bug since Firaxis have yet to officially acknowledge that this isn't intended behaviour (as far as I'm aware).

So I'd consider it poor sportsmanship to use it, but not cheating.

 

[Sholto]

Well my GOTM2 result should vouch that I don't reload, ever!

What I wanted to ask though, is reading the GOTM Spoiler threads cheating, or unsporting, or neither?

I've been doing it for GOTM 2 & 3 because, frankly, I need every bit of intelligence I can get. Not much good it's done me mind, someone "went and wiped out the Japs", ha!

 

[Aeson]

I don't think its a big deal to participate in the spoiler threads once you play at least partway through the game (once your map is mostly visable and you know where all the civ's are). Checking out the threads before then could be akin to reloading or restarting, as it could give you quite an advantage. Later on, even finding out strategic resource placements isn't going to make much of a difference in the scoring most of the time. There haven't been many posts that give specific locations or sea crossings, so the vague tips like knowing someone "went and wiped out the Japs" wont have much of an effect on gameplay.

 

[pvondrak]

Well, just IMO, it's not technically a bug since Firaxis have yet to officially acknowledge that this isn't intended behaviour (as far as I'm aware).

We don't need Firaxis to verify it's a bug. According to your logic, if they resolved all the bugs in the game then dropped off the face of the earth, one could claim their software was then permanently bug-free, technically speaking of course. Hmm, better keep that quiet, don't want to give the marketing people any ideas... I'd love to give that excuse though... "I don't acknowledge that the code isn't supposed to do that, so it isn't a bug and you have to pay me to fi...err change it."

Often developers have intentions that aren't readily clear, and you many not be able to tell if the game behavior is as intended, but any intelligent person should be able to quickly determine that a core piece of empire management being sidestepped wasn't by design.

If you're trying to be some sort of picky rules lawyer, you might want to consider that the rules for the GOTM don't specifically mention bugs, but rather 'exploits'. The definition of a bug is thus irrelevant. As for 'exploit', it's described only by example, the final say obviously goes to those holding the contest, and I believe they've spoken on the matter.

If you're trying to justify using it as not cheating and thus not against the rules, feel free to go ahead and submit a game using that method, and see what happens to your submission.