Questions about Combat

[Zerro0713]

Greetings, my friends and I have been playing Beyond the Sword for quite some time and I have some questions about some military units and when are the best times to use them. We usually play "Beyond the Sword" on either Noble or Prince difficulty.

Whenever I play, I always tech for gunpowder first. I rarely use pre-gunpowder units except to garrison cities, deal with barbs, or deal with jerks like Gengis Kahn or Ragnar who DoWs you while Pleased.

Catapults, Cannons, other similiar units: I only use these units to weaken a city's defense. Do you people use these weapons for anything else other than weakening city walls? What's the best upgrades to go for with these units to make them or effective?
Tanks: I have no idea when I should use these. Are they just another upgrade for Cannons or are they in a different genre of military units?
Infantry vs. Marines: When I get the option to build Marines, should I start building them instead of Infantry? I usually stay with Infantry because I know I can upgrade them to Mechanize Infantry while Marines don't seem to upgrade to anything useful.
Fighters and Carriers: When is the best time to use fighters and what are they good for? Traditionally I just ground pound with riflemen and seige equipment. I noticed fighters can attack land improvements and bomb city defenses. Should I fighters for this? Also what is the point of Aircraft Carriers? I know in real life, Aircraft Carriers are far superior to Destroyers and Battleships because aircraft are more mobile and can take out ships better but that does not seem like it's the case in Civ4. Like if I need to get across the ocean, I would protect my transports with Aircraft Carriers but ships like Destroyers, Battleships, and Missile Cruisers just seems better.
Submarines: Should these only be used for espionage or do they have any form of naval combat advantages through either offense or defense?

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Welcome to CivFanatics

Catapults, Cannons, other similiar units: I only use these units to weaken a city's defense. Do you people use these weapons for anything else other than weakening city walls?

Yes; weakening the city walls is nice, but the big advantage of these units is the collateral damage perk (the ability to damage units other then the one they are directly attacking).

Collateral damage is a key element in capturing cities that contain strong defensive pieces.

As such, they will most typically get City Raider promotions.

Tanks: I have no idea when I should use these. Are they just another upgrade for Cannons or are they in a different genre of military units?

They are another kind of attacking piece - more like riflemen than cannons (because they have the ability to kill defenders).

I'm not well placed to answer your other questions -- it's been years since I've fought in that late an era. The game changing wars are usually much earlier.

 

[s.bernbaum]

Greetings, my friends and I have been playing Beyond the Sword for quite some time and I have some questions about some military units and when are the best times to use them. We usually play "Beyond the Sword" on either Noble or Prince difficulty.

Whenever I play, I always tech for gunpowder first. I rarely use pre-gunpowder units except to garrison cities, deal with barbs, or deal with jerks like Gengis Kahn or Ragnar who DoWs you while Pleased.

Catapults, Cannons, other similiar units: I only use these units to weaken a city's defense. Do you people use these weapons for anything else other than weakening city walls? What's the best upgrades to go for with these units to make them or effective?

I will start off by saying that I am just going to answer the basic questions. There are many folks who like giving strategic advice and I am sure will soon do so.

These types of units generally known as "siege" are used for two things. One is as you have been using them, to barrage away the defending city's cultural defense. The other use is to soften up the defending units themselves, whether in a city or a stack in the field. You expect to lose the first few siege that you attack with but they cause collateral damage to other units in the defending stack besides the active defender. After you use a few of them, your infantry, marines, tanks, axes or whatever can attack with much better odds, avoiding losses among these more important units.

Upgrades for siege are city raider to give them a better chance of surviving, barrage to reduce the city defenses faster, and collateral damage so they injure more defenders when they attack. Which ones to use vary depending on what you plan. There are various strategies emphasizing different combinations. They all have their advocates and I am sure you will hear from them.

Tanks: I have no idea when I should use these. Are they just another upgrade for Cannons or are they in a different genre of military units?

Tanks are not siege. If you are playing vanilla CIV, then they do collateral damage like siege but that is not their primary purpose. The collateral damage is no longer there in BTS. (Having never played Warlords, I don't know if it is there still or already gone.) Tanks are primarily attack units. They can attack twice in each turn. They move two tiles instead of one per turn. They can get city raider promotions, which infantry cannot.

Infantry vs. Marines: When I get the option to build Marines, should I start building them instead of Infantry? I usually stay with Infantry because I know I can upgrade them to Mechanize Infantry while Marines don't seem to upgrade to anything useful.

This one is a matter of strategy. Marines are marginally stronger units but since infantry has a bonus against gunpowder units, they even out in that setting. Marines get a bonus against artillery. Marines do not get a penalty attacking across rivers or from transports while infantry does get the penalties. OTOH, infantry is available sooner and can be upgraded to Mechs. Marines don't upgrade to anything else. I use marines for two things. In land armies, I mix them in for their advantages and keep some infantry for theirs. If I am mounting an invasion from the sea, I use marines almost exclusively for those, along with battleships and carriers full of fighters.

Fighters and Carriers: When is the best time to use fighters and what are they good for? Traditionally I just ground pound with riflemen and seige equipment. I noticed fighters can attack land improvements and bomb city defenses. Should I fighters for this? Also what is the point of Aircraft Carriers? I know in real life, Aircraft Carriers are far superior to Destroyers and Battleships because aircraft are more mobile and can take out ships better but that does not seem like it's the case in Civ4. Like if I need to get across the ocean, I would protect my transports with Aircraft Carriers but ships like Destroyers, Battleships, and Missile Cruisers just seems better.

Fighters defend your forces against enemy fighters, airships, and bombers. They are also good for attacking enemy city defenses (cultural) and individual enemy units, although in general bombers do this better. When using bombers, I like to send in fighters as the first wave of attackers to take care of defending fighters on intercept missions and SAMs. I'd rather have the SAM damage my fighter than bomber. Then the bombers come in to the main attack.

The exception is for the sea based invasions. In that case, I have no air bases in bomber range. So, the fleet includes battleships for defense against enemy ships and to barrage away city defenses, a couple of destroyers to watch for enemy subs, a couple of carriers with fighters on intercept to take out enemy air attacks, and a half dozen or so carriers with fighters to pound the defending units down to half strength before the marines go in.

Submarines: Should these only be used for espionage or do they have any form of naval combat advantages through either offense or defense?

Subs can be used for espionage. They can also be used with missiles to soften up enemy ships before your battleships or destroyers attack them or to destroy them with missiles if they are out of range otherwise. I'm sure there are other uses for them but that is how I use them.

 

[Archon_Wing]

Tanks have nothing to do with siege. They're essentially a replacement for mounted units with their 2 moves, though mounted does not upgrade to them. They're very strong units that can mow down units if supported by air.They can also attack twice in a single turn with their natural blitz promotion. Against backwards foes, tanks can wreck them quickly.

Marines are specialized units meant for amphibious assaults. Your basic unit should still be infantry.

Because there are no limits to how many carriers you can fit in one tile, you can base a ton of fighters in an area and gain air superiority, while attacking enemy units, as well as reducing city defenses Due to ship mobility, you can cover a larger area with air power. Enemy fleets don't do very well if they get hit by 20 fighters.

Submarines can carry tactical nukes. Nuff said.

 

[Handel]

Also there is a very special type of units - the choppers (gunships). They should be airborn units but they are not - they move, attack and kill as the earthbound units (and they cannot move over water tiles) BUT they cannot capture cities.

 

[coanda]

Greetings, my friends and I have been playing Beyond the Sword for quite some time and I have some questions about some military units and when are the best times to use them. We usually play "Beyond the Sword" on either Noble or Prince difficulty.

Welcome to the forums!

Whenever I play, I always tech for gunpowder first. I rarely use pre-gunpowder units except to garrison cities, deal with barbs, or deal with jerks like Gengis Kahn or Ragnar who DoWs you while Pleased.

Play how you will, but I'd recognize that the best time to use military units (if your goal is just to win) is usually an early aggressive push to secure a solid core of cities (either a rush or a Medieval war), followed by going wild in the Renaissance with muskets, rifles, cuirassiers, cavalry, and/or cannons. The later military units all are somewhat less critical because of the overpowered nature of nukes and air superiority towards the end of the game, plus just because small advantages early tend to snowball into huge ones later.

The real keys to fun and successful earlier wars are (1) slavery and the whip to hurry out units, and (2) either rushing really early or bringing lots of siege along to lower city defenses and soften up defenders.

Catapults, Cannons, other similiar units: I only use these units to weaken a city's defense. Do you people use these weapons for anything else other than weakening city walls? What's the best upgrades to go for with these units to make them or effective?

As others have said, their best strength is the collateral damage - a common alternate term for catapults is "disposapults" because people just throw several of them away on suicide attacks right at the start to soften the enemy stack up. Generally you want the city raider promotion, but don't promote them until you're about to attack with them. If you run up against an army in the field, promote to Combat I instead (obviously CR won't help there). If you have a huge tech edge (like Artillery vs. Longbows), promote to Drill just to keep from taking any damage at all. Occasionally Accuracy is a worthwhile promotion (but only in certain unusual circumstances).

Tanks: I have no idea when I should use these. Are they just another upgrade for Cannons or are they in a different genre of military units?

Tanks are great as a strong 2-move attack unit with Blitz. That makes them good for moving quickly through enemy territory, so they're ideal when supported by a dominant air force and/or nukes. You cripple or kill all the defenders in a city, the tanks close in and take the city on the cheap, and you're ready to move on again immediately.

Infantry vs. Marines: When I get the option to build Marines, should I start building them instead of Infantry? I usually stay with Infantry because I know I can upgrade them to Mechanize Infantry while Marines don't seem to upgrade to anything useful.

If you're America, the Navy SEAL is good enough to supplant Infantry. Otherwise, Infantry tend to be more useful for non-Amphibious assaults. Generally by that point you aren't fighting strong enemy stacks because you're relying on an air force or on artillery to soften them up greatly first, so numbers are more important than strength... and infantry are cheaper, plus they can be drafted.

Fighters and Carriers: When is the best time to use fighters and what are they good for? Traditionally I just ground pound with riflemen and seige equipment. I noticed fighters can attack land improvements and bomb city defenses. Should I fighters for this? Also what is the point of Aircraft Carriers? I know in real life, Aircraft Carriers are far superior to Destroyers and Battleships because aircraft are more mobile and can take out ships better but that does not seem like it's the case in Civ4. Like if I need to get across the ocean, I would protect my transports with Aircraft Carriers but ships like Destroyers, Battleships, and Missile Cruisers just seems better.

The best time to use fighters is early and often. They're an extremely strong unit - they let your whole army advance much more quickly and safely, which means the war ends faster so you have to fight fewer enemy reinforcements. Until you get to more advanced air units you'll definitely still be dragging ground siege along as well, but Fighters are a great support unit.

Aircraft Carriers are nice because you can stack them, and that lets you put an arbitrarily large air-force in one spot. Since you can rebase your planes instantly to anywhere, that means you can have several carrier fleets, all of which are unassailable because they all get backed up by your entire massive air force when needed. And that will let you project air power well inland too, letting you easily take any enemy cities within a half-dozen tiles of the coast.

Submarines: Should these only be used for espionage or do they have any form of naval combat advantages through either offense or defense?

Submarines carry Tactical Nukes. Tactical Nukes cost half as much as ICBMs but are equally effective - so you can build a submarine and a tactical nuke, and still save hammers. Nukes win late-game wars. As far as late-game naval battles... I generally just avoid them. It might not be possible in multiplayer (I don't know), but in single-player you can usually just figure out which city the AIs have their fleets in and Pearl-Harbor them on turn 1 of a war.

 

[Mantic0re]

It has been said but is worth repeating.

Siege (catapults,cannon, artillery, and fighters/bombers and everyones favorite: Nukes) requires you to attack the opponent rather than wait for them to attack you. You HAVE to use these units in order to win a war with less losses than the AI. Computer opponents get bonuses that make units faster and cheaper to build. If you want to do well you will use Collateral Damage to soften up the opponents.