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Questions about editing and balance...

Discussion in 'Civ3 - General Discussions' started by licker, Feb 18, 2003.

  1. licker

    licker Chieftain

    Joined:
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    I've been enjoying my SP experiences so far, but there are a few minor tweeks I'd like to toy around with. Esentially I think the combat system could use a slight change to unit strengths. I'm not that interested in changing the Att/Def values, but rather I'd like to tinker with the HPs of units.

    My initial idea was to simply increase the HPs for everyone across the board by one or two, and then to increase HPs for UUs by another one (additional balancing of non HP using UUs required as well). The more I thought about this idea the less I liked it for its uniformity, and it essentially changes little other than 'normalizing' combat results a little. So I thought it would be better to change the reletive values of conscript vs. regular vs. veteren vs. elite. The problem with a change like that is that it favors the human player (generally only produces vets vs. regs for the AI) and it also favors Militeristic civs with more promotions. I think that I can personally live with favoring the Militeristic civs a bit (I don't normally play them anyway), and depending on the diference between vet and reg the AI shouldn't be too badly hurt by this change.

    Additionally to the changes for the grade of unit I also wanted to change the #of HPs based on the age of the unit, so more modern units would have additional advantages to their older counterparts, not a major advantage, but maybe an extra HP per age. This also makes higher grades of modern units reletivley weaker against same age units, which is probably ok.

    Ok, so that's what I want to do, and some, admittedly, fuzzy logic for why I want to do it, the question now is how? I've not really fooled with the editor so I'm not sure if what I'm outlining is trivial to change, or difficult, if someone can either explain here, or point me to an appropriate thread (and yes I've looked in the customization threads but not found info on this) I'd appreciate it. Also feedback on what my proposed changes would do would be appreciated, heck, maybe someone out there has already done what I'm thinking of and can point me to their mod.

    Thanks in advance
     
  2. Ralph-x

    Ralph-x Yo Foo Foo

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2003
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    You can only change the hp of reg/vet/elite units, and this effects all units, dont think theres a way to set them for individual units or based on age or anything.
     
  3. Lt. 'Killer' M.

    Lt. 'Killer' M. Chieftain

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    I like the game with all HP doubled. That way, less freak results happen, but enouhg to keep the game from becoming predictable. I also added 1 extra HP to elites, just to test, and found the AI cannot handle that.

    extra HP per age worked so-so for me, i rather did it by hand, giving Cavalry ione more HP than Knights though they are in the same age.

    Essentially, you can do what you want, give it a try, then take it back, but your analysis fits my experience pretty much.

    How to do it: open the editor, (select Scenario --> custom rules if it is PTW), edit rules. The HPs are in an extra tab (Combat experience IIRC), the extra HP per advancement can be done in the edit unit tab. There is an extra field where you can give the units more HP.

    If you can't work it out, I can post screenshots.
     
  4. licker

    licker Chieftain

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    Wow, thanks Killer, I'm at work right now, so I'll have to wait until I get home to fool around with it, I'll ask for screenies later if I'm really unable to figure it out.

    So you doubled everything? Meaning 4/6/8/10HPs for the different grades? But when you upped elite even more you found it unbalancing. Just making sure I understand you :)

    My origional thought was to go with 3/6/7/10, that way the difference in reg vs. vet isn't that huge so the AI wouldn't get quite the shaft they get now.

    I'm glad to hear that I can change the HPs individually too, means I can make the UUs a little better reletive to their counterparts, although I should probably consider upping the cost some... or will that cause AI problems as well. Granted that could give too big of a boost to the early UU civ's, but its not so huge if all units get their HPs bumped up.

    It'd also be interesting to tweek down some attack or def values, but up the HP greatly for certain units (or vice versa, up the attack/def, but make the unit very fragile) has anyone tried that? With good or bad experiences?
     
  5. Grey Fox

    Grey Fox Master of Points

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    I must say that giving each era aditional HP will unbalance the game IMHO.

    The game as it is, is designed to not give too much disadvantage to a civ who is behind.

    Game Balance at the cost of Realism, which is ok to me.
     
  6. licker

    licker Chieftain

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    I agree with you generally Grey Fox. However, if you increase HPs across the board an additional HP/age isn't as much as it is with the 2/3/4/5 system, where you are talking about a 20-25% increase (generally). In a 3/6/7/10 system you are talking about 12-15% increases, still that may be a bit much. I'm undecided as to how the handle the differences in age, perhaps I'll not make it generic to all units from the age, but rather just to defensive units, or something...

    Actually I'm kind of interested in 'doubleing' some units. So for example you'd have an offensive and defensive version of riflemen. The offensive version might be 5/4/1 with 6hps at reg, while the defensive would be 3/6/1 with 7hps at reg... I dunno about those numbers exactly, but for infantry type units I think it makes some sense, now it'd be nice if you could upgrade them back and forth between each other, but I'm not sure if something like that can be done.
     
  7. Lt. 'Killer' M.

    Lt. 'Killer' M. Chieftain

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    licker: you got me right.

    If you go by a factor of two, i found the extra HP for advanced units a good thing, especially for units with guns against older units.

    I one gave all archer units +1 HP, too - made them a lot more realistic ;)
     
  8. Grey Fox

    Grey Fox Master of Points

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    And btw, with more health you need to increase the Rate of Fire and/or power of the Artillary too. Otherwise they will be a lot less useful.
     
  9. licker

    licker Chieftain

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    Good point on Artillary Grey Fox, I hadn't overlooked it, but I hadn't really thought about it.

    How about naval units? I frequently play pangeas, so my navy is normally quite small and ineffective, thus I don't have many data points with ships, but should they simply recieve the same treatment as the land units?

    Also isn't there a combat calculator util around somewhere? (I'll take a look in a minute) but I'd like to check how differing hps vs. attack effects the out comes in various combinations.

    Ohh, one more thing (now I'm on a roll ;) ) I suppose I should change the healing rate or something, else rax are going to be even more important... I can adjust the healing rate right?
     
  10. Turner

    Turner Chieftain Retired Moderator

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    I changed my hitpoints from 2/3/4/5 to 2/4/6/8. This seems to work out pretty good. My elites have a better time of it, so I'm not as hesitant to send that Tank against a Spearman. I did this mostly so that when a unit gets promoted in battle, where it's defending, you get more than one hp added, and this insures better survivalability.
     
  11. Lt. 'Killer' M.

    Lt. 'Killer' M. Chieftain

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    combat calc link is in FAQ thread.

    heling will go along, if the steps are 5 HP it will be 5 HP a turn
     
  12. licker

    licker Chieftain

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    For your 4/6/8/10 I can see that the step is 2, so units heal at 2, 4 in a city, and max with rax. But in my case there isn't an even step 3/6/7/10 e.g. so what would the healing rate be set at? Or can I even do an uneven jump in HPs? Do you just specify conscript then a hp gain per grade? Hopefully not as I want reg and vet to be close compared to elite...

    I was assuming I could have a different hp gain depending on what grade was achieved, so something like +3/+1/+3 instead of +3 across the board.

    Also, does anyone have any insight as to how the AI prioritizes its build of military? Especaily when using modded units. I'm curious how well the AI would discriminate between a unit with 10/2/1 and 5hps vs. a unit with 5/1/1 and 10hps, they are esentially the same thing after all.
     
  13. Illustrious

    Illustrious Becoming Colonel Blimp

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    You can and should do exactly the same with sea units. In fact, since any increases to base hp are global, you won't have any choice!

    One other thing is that because (apart from bombardment) sea units and land units don't fight one another, you can use a completely different A/D/M progression for your navies without any ill effect - as long as you mod their rate of fire to reflect the new hp progression.

    In an earlier thread there was some discussion of how to make naval warfare a bit more historically interesting:
    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=41924
     
  14. licker

    licker Chieftain

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    Its true that the naval units will follow the land via grade, but you can adjust unit's HP individually, which was more of my interest for the naval side. I'll check out the link you provided though, thanks.
     
  15. Lt. 'Killer' M.

    Lt. 'Killer' M. Chieftain

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    licker: one more thing: you need to up the bombard values disproportionately, as it always is a chance of hitting. So not from 4 to 8 but to 9, or increase the fire rate.
     
  16. licker

    licker Chieftain

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    My quick impression of artillary (or bombard) was that if you roughly doubled hps, you should double fire rate, as that would balance out the damage done. That's a bit simplistic though, and I think you really need to up fire rate by 150% to keep the same reletive damage done. I've also considered just increasing the range of all units by one, making them easier to use, but less effective.

    Probably increasing Attack by 50% and doubleing rate will amount to the same thing though. Heh, I'm too lazy to make the calculations though... oh well its not like the AI uses artillary that well anyway, so making artillary a bit worse penalizes the player more anyway.
     

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