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Questions from a newbie

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by Psycho_Ivan, Aug 14, 2016.

  1. Psycho_Ivan

    Psycho_Ivan Warlord

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    I've just been getting into Civ V for the umpteenth time, and I have been enjoying this mod especially much. But I still have a few things I'd like some answers or elaboration on to understand things a bit better, and so.

    Carthage gets triple income bonuses from resource diversity... What is this and how does it work? Also, what the heck are good victory types for Carthage to pursue using all this cash flow?

    For context: In one match on PerfectWorld I had a giant tech lead (most of a century ahead of everyone else) and was getting oodles of bonuses for founding cities and getting population growth, but for the most part I was keeping to myself. Ultimately, I used my trade to aim for a cultural victory but fell back on a diplomatic one eventually since I was making in excess of 1000 gold per turn and hadn't yet enabled the city-states module... That probably wouldn't have worked so well with the mod enabled though.

    Sweden feels extremely boring and normally I really love playing as them, whatever game it might be. (Europa Universalis, Victoria, modded Empire: Total War...) The lack of incentive for me to really pursue anything but a military victory feels unsatisfying. I admit to having a tendency to put off military efforts until I've put a lot of time into infrastructure however. Is there any sort of satisfying way to play Sweden as it is that isn't wholly military focused? The Carolean feels underwhelming after all and the +10% attack boost on melee troops is.. paltry, as well as feels like with the UA taken into account, Sweden is more of an early rush civilization. Is Sweden no longer the faction for me or am I just ignoring the greater scope of what culture does to actually mold a nation?

    Thanks in advance for any responses and sorry I won't be able to check back on this thread for a while as this is literally a last-minute write-up before I go on a vacation.
     
  2. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    It's the Portuguese UA from vanilla, basically you get extra gold in your trade-routes for resources near the origin city that doesn't exist in the destination city (and the other way around)

    As for victory condition, Carthage can really go for any of them, the extra economy helps you keep up with everything from army to infrastructure.


    As for Sweden, yeah the Carolean is pure garbage, it has been brought up multiple times but G thinks it's fine.

    Imho the whole March promotion feels really weak and getting just march isn't a very good deal.
     
  3. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Some civs are too focused on something, but that doesn't mean you couldn't pursue any victory type. For many games, you can conquer a civ or two and still get a diplo or cultural victory, perhaps even scientific.
    Besides, after King difficulty is nearly impossible to win without some heavy warfare.
     
  4. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    100% pure garbage. Just total garbage. I love garbage UUs!

    G
     
  5. Rolepgeek

    Rolepgeek Chieftain

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    In response to the question about Carthage: if you hover over a trade route destination when deciding what to go for, you'll usually see each type of resource the originating city(I think) has with a 0.5 after it; trade route value being increased for every different type of resource available. Carthage gets 1.5 for each resource, I think.
     
  6. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    You do keep defending them, so I guess you do.
     
  7. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    You know it! I love garbage UUs.

    G
     
  8. Rolepgeek

    Rolepgeek Chieftain

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    Free March seems pretty good to me, Gazebo, for the record.

    I think your particular playstyle might influence a lot of your ideas, Funak, and you never seem to qualify, you basically just imply people are stupid if they disagree. Maybe toning that down would help you not antagonize Gazebo?
     
  9. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    I agree. March isn't as OP as it used to be, but it is by no means a bad promotion. The Carolean gets additional combat strength and benefits from the UA bonuses.

    I simply find it humorous when I stumble upon random personal attacks against me in threads. Nice to always be remembered.

    G
     
  10. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    The changes done to March in CPP compared to vanilla: Healing in enemy territory down to 5 hp from 10 (that's effectively cut the usefulness in half), -10% CS while defending, meaning it's a lot worse than in Vanilla. On top of that improved AI means enemy damage is not going to be spread out to anywhere near the same level as in vanilla, meaning that you're not going to get anywhere near the same amount of healing out of the promotion. Along with March the Carolean gets a bonus +2 CS.

    Comparing that to the other two Tercio replacements:

    Musketeer: +5 CS and a unique promotion providing +15% cs, +1 movement and the ability to ignore ZoC. The unique promotion blows march away in every situation. Even if the Musketeer had a negative 5 CS mod instead of a positive one it would still be a better unit than the Carolean. If it was just a 30 CS unit with +1 movement it would still blow the Carolean away.

    Impi: +3 CS, unique promotion giving you double attacks (one weaker but without counterattack). This unit hits a lot harder than the Carolean and it gets promotions a lot faster (double attacks means double experience). Ultimately this unit is a lot less interesting than the Musketeer, probably because the rest of the Zulu kit adds a ton of other bonuses to it (a lot more than a bonus 10% CS when attacking). Even with that in mind however the unit is still way better than the Carolean.

    Comparing it with the Janissary, a ranged musketman replacement that unlocks at the same time and shares the march promotion:
    +3 CS, +3 RCS, March, +25% CS when attacking, costs 25 hammers less and unlocks 1 tech earlier.
    Comparing a ranged unit with a melee unit isn't exactly fair, but as you can see the straight up numbers are heavily in the favor of the Janissary. Sure a ranged unit is less likely to take damage, so March is less useful here, right? On the other hand a ranged unit is more likely to be standing outside of enemy territory meaning it's way more likely to actually heal more than 5.


    A few earlier unique units to compare with:


    Hoplite - Spearman replacement.
    +3 CS, 2 unique promotions. Either of these promotions alone probably doesn't match just march alone, but they are both unique, meaning you can't get them by leveling your units up (as you can with march). Notice that even though this unit is 2 eras earlier than the Carolean it still provides you with more +CS? Yeah well if you count percentages the Hoplite is 30% stronger than a normal spearman while a Carolean is 8% stronger than a Tercio.

    Immortal - Spearman replacement.
    +2 CS, 2 unique promotions (healing at double speed, +25% CS when defending). Each of these promotions are imho straight up better than March, and you get two of them. The +CS is exactly the same as for the Carolean, but again in percentages it's 20% compared to the 8% of the Carolean.



    My playstyle got nothing to do with anything here, the Carolean is just straight up numerically weaker than other unique units.

    On top of that, and this is an opinion not a fact (in case you were keeping score), the unit is badly designed for the overall goal of the civilization, March is a promotion that's the strongest while you're defending your own territory (as healing in your own territory is three times stronger than healing in enemy territory), while the Swedish UA is completely based around offensive warfare.

    The one redeeming factor the Carolean have is that it unlocks at the same time as cannons, which makes it a strong timing. However as mentioned earlier, all the other units that unlocks on that same tech are all a lot stronger than the Carolean.
     
  11. Rolepgeek

    Rolepgeek Chieftain

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    I'm not saying it's the greatest of them, I'm just saying it's not really garbage. It is more effective in your territory, but it's probably also fairly effective in neutral territory. It also helps not just when involved in the fight, but allows you to do fighting retreats, basically, and cycle through units. That might not be the best representation of the Carolean historically, obviously, but Attacking is necessary whether you're on offense or defense, and Sweden's UA is still pretty decent either way. I think it could maybe be improved, but I still like March as a promotion. Seems best for enabling mobility in the field. If something was going to be changed, best way to do it might be just to make them heal upon destroying a unit. Jaguars do that, after all, and it sorta fits in with their theme of never stopping the advance. Ooh, or giving them Charge too, since normally non-mounted units can't get it.

    And if it really is garbage, there's better ways to say it. Attacking the creator of the mod doesn't seem like a great way to do that. What you told me just now seems like a good way to do that.
     
  12. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    When people have given decent explanations to why it's underperforming and he just keep responding with "It's fine" people lose interest in writing elaborate explanations.
     
  13. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Funak, writing a thorough post that actually fails to offer an alternative, and then complaining when other people shrug and ask 'so what?' is a really ineffective means of communication. You seem very concerned with the power of the Carolean, yet you do nothing but trash it. Criticism without construction is not helpful.

    Take this to the Sweden thread, and figure out what you think it should do differently. I've never, ever defended something for the sake of doing so. But an outcry of 'it is garbage, fix it!' is extremely unhelpful, and downright needy. You fix it! :)

    G
     
  14. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    I'm not writing another suggestion just to have it shut down by a "No it's fine", no thanks. I wrote this to make a point and now I don't care anymore.
     
  15. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Writing a suggestion does not immediately qualify it as being good. Trust me on that! Besides, I don't recall anyone offering an improvement on the Carolean aside from adding Drill I, which I didn't see as being a very compelling upgrade.

    G
     
  16. Gamewizard

    Gamewizard Emperor

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    I personally still like the march promotion when on the offensive. You just need to have some medics in the mix.
     
  17. Psycho_Ivan

    Psycho_Ivan Warlord

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    Ahah, OK I didn't expect for things to get dramatic like that but thank you for the responses and answers. The advice on Carthage was especially useful.

    I suppose I'll want to actually play Sweden in this mod and see how it feels, but just taking a second look at them makes me feel like they are very much a pro-war faction and they retain little of what made them stand out to me in the base game, even if some things have been implemented in different ways. (IE, building tall but focusing on it for benefits with the Skola rather than an inherent effort to gain great people, and their military might culminating to its strongest during the gunpowder era.) As it is though, the faction seems like it has on a whole a bit of a personality crisis.
     
  18. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Say what kind of game you do want to play and we'd advice some civs.
     
  19. Psycho_Ivan

    Psycho_Ivan Warlord

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    Hmm, well I don't like going on the offensive militarily very often but I do like a good defensive war or two. Science victories are what I usually go for but I tend to focus on peaceful resolutions anyhow. I focus on early expansion before building up infrastructure, although I'm no stranger to reversing the order if the situation or civ calls for it. Trade money, great people and beakers are generally my favorite aspects of Civ, along with flavorful factions. To the point that the Huns appealed to me a lot in this mod despite being completely unlike what I tend towards. That help at all?
     
  20. Greggy08

    Greggy08 Warlord

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    I changed my mind about the civ to suggest you like 23 times reading this post lol... Then i can finally say you should just pick random and see what happens.
     

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