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Questions from Tachy's Saladin Game

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Mantic0re, Feb 20, 2013.

  1. Mantic0re

    Mantic0re Prince

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    I'm asking this question in a separate thread rather than derail Tackywaxon's deeply educational thread.

    Spoiler :



    1. How does Tachy know the number of hammers invested?

    2. I'm assuming from Tachy's comments that these hammers are all in one city, Can we determine which city has the hammers invested?

    3. Can the 62 hammers in turn 82 be a result of a whip in another city or does that number 11 hammer increase in the city with 51 hammers invested.

    4. Is whip overflow considered in the math that gives Tachy these insights?

    5. Do we have any understanding of how often AI's whip and under what conditions? I rarely notice it unless emergency units are causing problems for me.

    6. Can we infer the buildings in a particular city from the Espionage Advisor?
     
  2. timmy827

    timmy827 King

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    Formula for tracking hammers:
     
  3. Undecided

    Undecided Warlord

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    I don't think tachy would've minded if you posted this in the saladin thread. Question 5 is right up tachy's alley.

    1. see timmy827 post.

    Just for the sake of completeness there is another formula developed by T-hawk which is a bit easier in my opinion.

    Spoiler :


    2.
    Yes, we can determine the city. In the T82 screenshot Darius is selected on the left side. In the middle every city is listed, that tachy can see on the world map. (Perse, Susa, Tarsus) Right now Persepolis is highlighted, but you could look at every listed city and determine the hammer investment with the above mentioned formulas.

    3.
    The same city is selected in both screenshots so it's definitely not a whip from another city. If you have a big hammer increase between turns, you can just look if the city lost population between the two turns, to figure out if it was a whip or a forestchop.

    4.
    Yes. Overflow hammers, production modifiers, chops. Everything is considered afaik.

    5.
    Besides the emergency units you already mentioned, i have no clue.

    6.
    Don't know exactly what you mean, determine which item is currently produced or which buildings are already present in a city?
    In any case both things are possible, for the second one you don't even have to use math.
    First one can be a bit tricky, but if you monitor a city every turn you know how much hammers were invested if you use the formula. If an item is build in the city the hammer investment is obviously smaller than the turn before.
    Let's use the example from the screenshots T81 when darius has 51 hammers invested in something. Imagine on T82 the hammer invested would've dropped. Now you could conclude that darius probably finished an item in persepolis worth 60 hammers. Problem is, there are alot of items that cost 60 hammers.
    If you're really curious you can now look at the tech and resource situation, the location of the city you monitored, zoom in on the city to see which buildings were already build (this takes a bit of practise but it's the answer to the "no-math-needed" part) and if the city population stagnated or got smaller.
    After that there is a pretty high possibility that you either feel very proud because you managed to guess the right item or start questioning your sanity. ;)

    Hope this answers some of your points and makes atleast a bit of sense.
     
  4. kossin

    kossin Deity

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    Others are already answered.

    5. Have you already tried automating your cities production? That's about how often the AI will whip (not a lot). They do however, whip a lot of emergency troops when a city is being threatened by enemy troops.

    6. No but if you look closely at the city on the map, you can see the various buildings.
    It's the same as seeing the Pyramids, but infrastructure is, of course, smaller.

    If you look at Civilopedia, each building has an associated image... that's what you're looking for.
     
  5. Thrar

    Thrar King

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    In the second screenshot there is no value shown for sabotage production. Why is that and how do we know it's now 62 hammers?
     
  6. Mantic0re

    Mantic0re Prince

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    Wow, great answers. Thanks guys.

    I'm actually gonna bookmark a thread I created.
    First time for everything.
     
  7. Pangaea

    Pangaea Rock N Roller

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    This is what I wonder about too.

    Apart from this having no value in the 2nd screenshot, the only values that are different is the EP, and Steal Treasury, which has gone up from 42 to 50. So how can you tell there are now 62 hammers invested in something?
     
  8. Manco Capac

    Manco Capac Friday,13 June,I Collapse

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    Glad people took care of answering. :lol:

    Any more questions?
     
  9. Thrar

    Thrar King

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    Well, there is this one...

     
  10. Mantic0re

    Mantic0re Prince

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    This puzzles me as well. I assume 62 comes from something in the save and is not displayed on the screenshot with that caption. Maybe 62 is based on info from a different turn or deduced by the number of hammers added to the 51 each turn.


    I have more questions (some information/mechanics and mostly upper level strategy questions) but to be honest I have to reread everything and think it over first. I play Prince/Monarch and am not used to the level of detail and thinking involved at this level.
     
  11. Manco Capac

    Manco Capac Friday,13 June,I Collapse

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    Ok, I'll get to this question tomorrow.
     
  12. Soirana

    Soirana Emperor

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    You do realize, that on esp screen you can click on different city names and see quite different results, right?
     
  13. Mantic0re

    Mantic0re Prince

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    I do, but I don't understand why you ask. How does espionage information on Susa (or any other city for that matter) help Tachywaxon determine that Persepolis "now has 62 hammers into something"? If you look at the screenshot the "sabotage production" space is blank. This information is required for the T-hawk quoted formula.


    I thought maybe Tachy came to that number in another way since the formula was missing key data. Maybe there was a problem with the screenshot and what we saw isn't what Tachy was seeing.
    Maybe you could look at the city on the world map and guess at how many hammers get collected based on the population and improved tiles. Maybe Turn 80 showed a hammer count of 40, and turn 81 showed a count of 51 (eleven hammers more). If the city pop didn't change it seems reasonable to assume an additional 11 hammers added at turn 82.

    I guess the details in this case aren't important. I only open the espionage screen a few times each game and never really looked at the numbers. I learned a new trick and can even see how it can be useful. I'm learning that playing above my current level takes a more careful eye and deeper planning to be successful.
     
  14. Soirana

    Soirana Emperor

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    Would you mind citing there it was said 62 hammers were precisely in Persepolis?
     
  15. Dubioza

    Dubioza Emperor

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  16. Manco Capac

    Manco Capac Friday,13 June,I Collapse

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    Ok, given I was also confused, I looked through the saves (yes, I have an automatic save ajusted to save each turn) and I conclude that screenshot from T82 is a confusion and possibly a screenshot from T83 I named after T82. My mistake in any case.

    I looked T81-82:

    Persepolis got 51 hammers then on T82, 62 hammers.
    Susa got 67 hammers and then on T82, the build is finished.

    Indeed, no sabotage production means a build is finished and the next hasn't been chosen yet. Queue remedies this though.

    Espionage screen is a really strong mean to make the game a bit less random regarding mid-wonders.
    Exploration is an important component and that remains true for AI's land too even if you know to get Paper in 20-30 turns later. That might be occasionally a lifesaver for certain wonders. Like do I need to whip inefficiently this wonder if I know the AI doesn't get it in like 6 turns later for instance. Also helpful to predict present build in a early rush. You may predict a settler under training and if you are almost sure it remains three turns before the settler is out (for any build, if 3 turns remaining or less, the AI won't ever swap builds; that's hardcoded), you may abuse the AI and avoid the unfortunate urgency whipping until your slow units get to the city square.
     

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