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Questions

Discussion in 'Civ4Col - We The People' started by Juku Salonen, Nov 19, 2020.

  1. Juku Salonen

    Juku Salonen Chieftain

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    Unlike Ray, I don't think having some (or even many) human-exclusive features is bad in and of itself. I consider Colonization to be more of an asymmetric game, unlike Civilization proper where everything is symmetric and all players start on a level field. Well, sort of. :p

    I just think even if the AI didn't know how to use or counter invisible units, having the whole native population go invisible (and that's the actual gameplay effect, no matter what the justification is) is bad immersion and annoying to play with. It would basically be like constant guerilla warfare.

    So if anything ever comes out of this, there needs to be considerable rethinking of how exactly you should go about it. Which is why I expect it to remain at the bottom of the todo list until at least 2025. :D
     
  2. ConjurerDragon

    ConjurerDragon Prince Supporter

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    Well, for once it would only be guerilla warfare, if at war. What would it bother you that you cannot see the combat units of some tribe that you live in peace with?

    And second, as far as I understand the concept those units were invisicamouflaged only in their "home" terrain type - e.g. forests, so that if they approached cultivated lands around a city they would be spotted.
     
  3. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    There are different "InvisibilityTypes" possible actually - each could have a separete small logic in DLL.
    The Ranger (INVISIBILITY_TYPE_RANGER) was e.g. implemented to be only "invisible" in Forrests.

    We could have more different "InvisibilityTypes" that could behave totally different.
    And of course more specific Units that can spot Units with specific InvisibilityTypes.

    -------

    But still the fact remained that it had unwanted side effects (small bugs) - because the ported Civ4BTS logic does not allow "Invisible Units" to capture our destroy Cities.
    And also the fact remained that AI had no clue how to use it itself or how to counter it - and thus we considered it an "exploit".

    And as I said - the code was not completely removed though
    We just deactivated it in XML, so at a later point in time we can fix or improve it.

    -------

    Otherwise I can only say:

    Once one of us finds time and motivation to actually take care of "InvisibilityTypes" we will consider it again. :thumbsup:
    We will then make a really good and intersting game concept for it and also try to properly teach it to AI.

    Simply not now. :dunno:
    Have some patience. :thumbsup:

    We have an incredible amount of ideas - many you simply never heard of yet - but only little time to mod ...
    That is why we can implement new features or improve existing ones only step by step. ;)

    -------

    If you want things to be realized faster, you need to become a modder yourself. :)
    The more people we have that join us, the faster we can progress.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2020
  4. Juku Salonen

    Juku Salonen Chieftain

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    No, the situation would resemble guerilla warfare a lot of the time, since the natives are capable of being at 'shadow war' with you. Raiding settlements, stealing treasures, that sort of thing. Now, you wouldn't even know what hit you. :eek: And certain tribes can raid you at the drop of a hat.

    The forest thing is the only saving grace. But e.g. South America on the historical map is chock-full of jungle.

    How does the game determine that this particular invisibility only applies in forests? Matching the "INVISIBILITY_RANGER" string?

    I am one. Unfortunately, I'm largely committed elsewhere. :cry:

    Another suggestion that can go to the bottom of the TODO list: if you have a scenario that starts with more than three units, the others overflow the introduction window. Looks kinda bad and if the list is particularly long, some of it can be cut off.
     
  5. Juku Salonen

    Juku Salonen Chieftain

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    I'll move this here, since it was somewhat offtopic in the other thread.
    Thank you, that is much better and I appreciate it. I think we can consider the 'feature request' closed, anyway.

    Spoiler Discussion that shouldn't be had :
    But I'd still like to discuss some things because I may want to do it for myself sometime after I lose interest in my current project.
    I understand that, and I never wanted this. I know the AI struggles as it is. I also forgot about automation, because I never use automation myself.
    For the human player, that's actually a bonus. :D
    Well, maybe there are some extra considerations but most of the diplomacy seems to be conducted before doFound() is invoked?

    BTW, how are commands tied to the UI, anyway?
    Er, bugs might happen, of course, but doFound() seems to be a relatively isolated piece of code. All the diplomacy is done in found(). Tacking some pioneer code in-between there should be relatively doable. Maybe there will be unforeseen consequences, but I assume these will be primarily tied to the settler getting killed. Is there anything that assumes a city must be built once you've done all the diplomacy? Maybe an achievement will break, but I can live with that.

    Did the AI do one-city challenges? :) This was meant to be human-only.

    You already have the two city radii, maintaining that is at least an order of magnitude more problematic. But I can understand the desire to keep things uniform and cut down on the probable causes of bugs. I'd have been happy with an experimental and hidden "Turn it on at your own risk!" option. Well, water under the bridge.

    The AI is cheating anyway. :D This would have been like using Revolutionary or Deity to boost the AI.

    I think the main difference between the WTP team's vision and myself is that you want to make the AI competitive. But the vast majority of players do not want AI (never mind a whole bunch of AIs) that successfully competes with them. They want obstacles. Colonization is already halfway asymmetric with the natives playing by different rules and the King coming after you.

    Offtopic, but last I looked, programming was still more like art than science, and this project doesn't look particularly developed wrt code verification, automated testing or the like. I believe you can predict your personal workload and obvious game mechanics issues. No offense, but I doubt you can predict specific bugs or even the existence of bugs beyond 'there are always bugs'. :p

    No problem. From where I come from, opinion is that Germans have become way too soft after they gave up on serfdom. :whipped:

    I 'became personal' after you repeatedly stonewalled me, not because you refused. I have my own issues. :oAgain, let's say we have different standards of what constitutes meaningful communication and leave it at that.

    I'm not challenging your taste. I acknowledge yours is more important to you than mine or anyone else's.

    I took issue with your way of communicating. I don't think you are going to change, and neither am I, so...

    Agreed.
     
    raystuttgart likes this.
  6. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    They are almost completely handled in DLL.
    (Which also includes "Which Unit/Profession can usit it under which specific conditions?")

    But of course you need to configure them first here:
    (Including text and button displayed.)
    CIV4CommandInfos.xml

    Of course not, or otherwise I would directly correct / fix so we would never really have a bug in the things I implement. ;)
    But after 12 years of modding experience with this game I have gotten a really reliable "gut feeling" for "Is it risky or not?".

    To explain our considerations for changes and new features:
    Spoiler :
    Yes AI, stability, performance and scalability are the main technical aspects we consider. :thumbsup:
    Non-technical aspects are balancing, aesthetics (graphics) and immersion.

    Those are what I called our "quality criteria" - but I know you do not like that phrasing. :)
    (It is just so you know what I wanted to say or summarize here by that term.)

    It is not that easy though - and often not possible - to really fulfill all of them - because this is still just a game.
    So yes, we have to make compromises but we do still consider them for our decisions.

    We simply do not want to create a mod that is just a "scrappy collection" of things.
    We really want to create and publish a "quality mod" - sorry, but I miss a better term for it.

    Otherwise it is basically just about effort and gameplay.
    (Our motivation to invest time and our personal taste.)

    Once you are a Civ4Col modder yourself and want to implement stuff, let us know. :)
    Even if we do not share the same opinions about a specific features cooperation and support is always possible. :thumbsup:
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2020
    Juku Salonen likes this.
  7. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    I agree, we should put that on our list of issues - which we track in our GIT. :thumbsup:
    It is a "minor bug" but it is still a bug.
     

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