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Quick question about Defensive Pact functionality

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by Gazebo, Oct 4, 2017.

  1. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    I’m not talking about adding EU4 stuff. I’m simply talking about changing it so that the expiration only occurs if you directly attack the party you’ve aligned with.

    G
     
  2. NikMuazHakim

    NikMuazHakim Warlord

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    I think this is a good idea considering the current matter can be exploited by both players and AIs. If the defensive pact are made to expire naturally(like resources), it should also void the contracts in wars(like resources). This applies if the parties trading Defensive pact declares war on one another. Everything else looks logical, very straight forward matter. It also makes Defensive Pact more valuable, just my 2cents.
     
  3. GodDamnItAlexander

    GodDamnItAlexander Warlord

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    It's super strong and it will change diplomacy severely for Civs that like to play peaceful and want everyone else to play peaceful as well.

    I can attack anyone, you can attack anyone (we can't attack each other) and we're protecting each other from attacks. And at the same time it's not a DoF(!!!).

    What other tools do peace loving Civs have? Global peace accords?
     
  4. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

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    You can attack each other. Lower-ranked civs often request DP's. And it's easy to have the option of DPs even if you're peaceful, as long as you build a decent army. Now if you choose to go skimpy, then you're much less likely to benefit from this... and you'd be about as screwed in the current system, as well.
     
  5. GodDamnItAlexander

    GodDamnItAlexander Warlord

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    Well yeah of course you can attack each other, sorry about my wording. Although what's the point of a DP if you're just going to attack him anyways, other than to backstab?
     
  6. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

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    The AI backstab frequently. But they don't necessarily have it in mind when they sign a DP.
     
  7. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Gaining time. You cannot trust the civ you signed DP with, but other civs might be more reluctant to attack you. That's better than nothing.
     
    phantomaxl1207 likes this.
  8. Moi Magnus

    Moi Magnus Emperor

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    Well, if you are in a triangle of DP, attacking each other is a bad idea since it is a two against one, so it is possibly more efficient than a DoF.

    I think that's a good idea.
    The only problem is that it would lead to a lot of pathological cases, so we need to have a clead definition of the effect of a DP, so the result will be previsible.
    In the current situation, if you just change the expiration of DP, what are the rules ?
    More precisely :

    1) If you are dragged into a war due to a DP, are you declaring war ? Does the war is declared to you ? Or are you in a strange half-attacker half-defender ?
    2) Does DP chain each others ?
    3) How does DP interact with simultaneous war declaration ? (A, B, and C with 3 DP. A and B backstab and betray C. Does A and B have a way of doing so without ending at war with each others ?)
     
  9. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

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    I can live with a specific scenario being possibly more eficient than a DoF.
     
  10. GodDamnItAlexander

    GodDamnItAlexander Warlord

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    But don't we want DP to be different than DoF? The diplo game isn't that diverse, and right now the DoF and the new DP sound very similar.
     
  11. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

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    I don't know how any of that refers to my quote. I'm saying the AI aren't limited by DPs, because they do backstab, but that when they first sign one, backstabbing may not be what they have in mind. All this argues against what you originally wrote.
     
  12. hokath

    hokath King

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    I agree with changing it. We'll obviously have to think a bit about the diplomatic modifier behavior a little bit.
     
  13. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    I didn't think that preventing a DP from chained wars was to include EU features. Maybe that's hard-coded and not easy to change. But it seems logical that one civs should not be forced to join the war of a third.
     
  14. Dawnpromise

    Dawnpromise Prince

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    I like this idea.

    Right now I really don't see any point in signing defense pacts with anyone unless they pay me because my partner will just declare war on someone and annul it THEN my enemies have their opening to declare war.
     
  15. civplayer33

    civplayer33 King

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    The problem I see here is that the AI is often rather unpredictable and can change its disposition radically in a short time; so far the DP would go away automatically when they did something really stupid to piss a strong civ off (like declare war on that civ's friend). With the change I would be stuck defending the moron from the repercussions until it ran out naturally; as it is right now I almost never agree to DP already because in most cases I don't want to have to deal with this unpredictability and rather just defend myself; with the change I would never make another DP with anyone.

    So please add the ability to cancel the DP like a DOF if this change is enacted. To limit exploitability a mandatory minimum duration of 15 turns could be added as well as a diplomatic penalty on cancellation.
     
  16. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    I'm going to add this, but as an option within the CBO.

    G
     
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  17. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

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    Sounds good. Let us know how it goes with your testing, in terms of the unwanted complications some have theorized will occur.
     
  18. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

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    One question I have is how this will work with vassalization and runaways, in terms of a vassal being a de facto DP already, on top of which a powerful civ is likely to have a DP or two as well. If you could comment on that as well, it'd be appreciated.
     
  19. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    I've been testing it before I brought it up, and I find that it generally has the positive effect of reducing the number of dogpiles in a game. Example:

    Old:

    4 civs, A,B,C,D.

    A and B make a defensive pact
    B is paid to go to war with D by C
    A and B defensive pact annuls
    B is now vulnerable to attacks from A and C (adding more civs to the game increases the chance of dogpiling on the attacker)

    New:

    4 civs, A,B,C,D.

    A and B make a defensive pact
    B is paid to go to war with D by C
    A and B defensive pact remains
    B is now vulnerable to attacks from just C
     
  20. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Vassals are their own beast - they follow the master no matter what.

    Re: runaways, tying DPs to aggression against another civ makes it such that the world's alliance systems are a bit more static, but also a bit more predictable (and less likely to be abused/tweaked by accident). This actually helps the AI, as the AI can really freak out if the world balance suddenly changes.

    G
     

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