R&F Almost Included the Haida

[conorbebe]

According to janboruta, creator of the Better Civilization Icons mod, there remains some traces of a Haida civilisation within the Rise & Fall code.

Here is what they posted in the patch notes of the mod, explaining why the Cree icon was changed:

Has anyone else found evidence to support this?

Why might have Firaxis chosen against going with the Haida?

What are people's thoughts on the Haida being substituted for the Cree?

 

[Morningcalm]

Doesn't seem like solid evidence for Haida consideration to me (though I haven't seen the code in question).

As to why no Haida in Civ VI, I think one of the big disadvantages of the Haida are shared traits with Vikings (for them it is said warfare was the easier way to wealth than trade, though like the Vikings of Europe they also traded with others). And we already have Norway for coastal raiding bonuses.

Another disadvantage of the Haida that likely prevented them from being in Civ VI so far is their lack of well-attested leaders on the scale of say Poundmaker or Sitting Bull. Their more famous leaders (from what little I can see in English on Google) raided vessels but commanded rather small-scale groups. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koyah
http://www.biographi.ca/en/bio/koyah_4E.html
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumshewa

Certainly the Haida are still an interesting culture (esp due to the totem poles), but I don't see them as fitting Civ VI as it stands. (We also had a long discussion about this in the Ideas & Suggestions forum.)

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

As a Canadian, I would have put the Haida as the most likely of our indigenous cultures to be added to Civ, based on name recognition and cultural familiarity (totem poles).

I'm pleased to see the Cree included. They were a major political and cultural force over a large part of North America and continue to form an important (and too frequently disadvantaged) part of our nation.

There's no overlap with the Haida on the other side of the Rockies, though, so a future addition of the Haida would be fine with me, too. I'd buy that as a DLC just to erect totem poles all over my empire. Their mass feasts, where they share food with adjacent (often rival) neighbours, would also make for a cool and unique bread & circuses project.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

While the Cree icon bears some resemblance to PNW art, it is a fully Cree design. It looks a lot like this Cree eagle mask:

 

[Amrunril]

I don't think the icon is very strong evidence that the developers planned to include the Haida or another PNW civ. If the developers did change their planned civs at one point, the icon would have been one of the easiest things to change.

 

[Uberfrog]

I agree with the above points, this doesn’t seem like it’s based on anything solid.

The idea that Firaxis would change which Civ they wanted and go to the effort of making a 3D animated leader (with associated controversy ), original music performed by the descendants of that leader, not to mention all the other aspects of the Civ design (which wouldn’t fit the Haida at all) and then forget to change the tiny Civ icon is... a little absurd

 

[conorbebe]

Well I was more curious about the claim of finding references to the Haida in the game's code. I'd be interested in hearing from other modders to substantiate this claim.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

So I did some researching and under the file Civilizations.artdef for Expansion 1 the Haida do appear as a Civilization along with the other Civs in the expansion and the Khmer and Nubia.

Add on: Something tells me that it could be true and they decided to go with the Cree instead and we were also going to have 10 Civs but the Khmer and Nubia were moved up early to DLC.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I suspect they initially were developing several Native American/First Nation options in parallel before narrowing it down to the Cree. I personally hope they can make the Haida or some other PNW culture work in some later DLC or expansion. It's one very distinctive Native American region that hasn't been explored yet.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

I suspect they initially were developing several Native American/First Nation options in parallel before narrowing it down to the Cree. I personally hope they can make the Haida or some other PNW culture work in some later DLC or expansion. It's one very distinctive Native American region that hasn't been explored yet.

You're forgetting Totem Pole of the "Native Americans"

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

You're forgetting Totem Pole of the "Native Americans"

By choice. *shudders*

 

[Phoenix1595]

I suspect they initially were developing several Native American/First Nation options in parallel before narrowing it down to the Cree. I personally hope they can make the Haida or some other PNW culture work in some later DLC or expansion. It's one very distinctive Native American region that hasn't been explored yet.

I'd love to see this too. Between the Pacific Northwest and the American Southwest, there is a ton of content the series has yet to explore.

 

[Krajzen]

So I did some researching and under the file Civilizations.artdef for Expansion 1 the Haida do appear as a Civilization along with the other Civs in the expansion and the Khmer and Nubia.

Add on: Something tells me that it could be true and they decided to go with the Cree instead and we were also going to have 10 Civs but the Khmer and Nubia were moved up early to DLC.

Wow. So confirmed.

Maybe they left Haida because they have really awful lack od notable leaders.

In my opinion, Pacific NW should be represented by Salish - another major people from the same cultural area, and they have a good charismatic personality to lead them: Chief Seattle (native name Si'Ahl), after whom the city of Seattle is named Check his wikipedia article.

 

[Krajzen]

You're forgetting Totem Pole of the "Native Americans"

I will never stop enjoying the meme of this forums of applying salt to the wound by constantly mentioning this infamous civ

 

[Lord Lakely]

I never looked up the Haida but the Tlingit are perfectly reasonable to implement. A lot of cities in western Canada and Alaska have names in Linkit (which avoids abominations like "Iroquois City of Montreal"), and they have a doable leader list. (they could go with the semi mythical Glushkin, or some other leader).

Either would be a cool addition to the franchise

There are other traits you can give to the Vikings over what they already have.

Spoiler :

"Ragnarok" is a cool idea which would involve upgrading civilian units (Builders, Engineers, Settlers, Great People) and Religious units into military (or Support) ones using Faith.
"Bersaerkergang" could give improved healing to military units. Like a fixed +5 every turn or something.
"Kalmar Union" could improve loyalty in some way or give bonuses from established Governors (like Hwarang, but with production and loyalty instead of science and culture)
"Vinland" makes the first city on a different continent count like a capital for the sake of loyalty and distance bonuses, etc.
Plenty of options ^__^

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

Wow. So confirmed.

Maybe they left Haida because they have really awful lack od notable leaders.

In my opinion, Pacific NW should be represented by Salish - another major people from the same cultural area, and they have a good charismatic personality to lead them: Chief Seattle (native name Si'Ahl), after whom the city of Seattle is named Check his wikipedia article.

But no totem poles

Chief Seattle would fit the "big personality" requirement easily. Being U.S. based rather than Canadian would likely appeal given the Cree are already in the game.

But again - I repeat - no totem poles

I never looked up the Haida but the Tlingit are perfectly reasonable to implement. A lot of cities in western Canada and Alaska have names in Linkit (which avoids abominations like "Iroquois City of Montreal"), and they have a doable leader list. (they could go with the semi mythical Glushkin, or some other leader).

The Tlingit and the Haida would implement very similarly in Civ and be equally good - apologies to representatives of both nations, who undoubtedly identify many differences that are not readily identifiable to me. For whatever reason, the Haida seem to have the greater name recognition, but I'm not sure there's any good reason for that, and I'd be equally pleased to see the Tlingit make an appearance.

Because - you know - totem poles

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Bottom line, there are a number of good reasons for including at least one Pacific Northwest Native Civ in the game:
1. It was one of, if not the most, dense Hunter-Gatherer Cultures in the world, due to the abundance of seafood, fish (salmon!) and native edible plants. It is one of the few places where a 'civilization' with a starting Tech alternative to Agriculture could actually work.
2. Their artwork, from finely woven basketry to wood carving (Six different kinds of poles, including the 'totem' but also my favorite, the Shaming Pole): any of the coast tribes of the region could be one of the most graphically distinctive Civs in the game.
3. A variety of different 'technologies' and traits: the Haida were coastal traders and raiders and possibly deep-sea travelers, the Makah and the Haida were off-coast whalers before almost anyone else in the world, the Chinook traded 'way inland up the Columbia and other rivers, and almost everybody exploited coastal seafood, to include 'aquaculture', enhancing and 'cultivating' coastal shellfish and other resources. Seagoing dug-out cedar canoes, Potlach, plank-built and carved 'long houses' - there's enough for more than one Civ VI-type Civ and certainly enough to make one very distinctive Civ VI-type Civilization.

And if lack of 'distinctive' leaders is a problem, need I remind you that Civ VI already includes non-leaders (Gorgo) semi-mythical leaders (Gilgamish) and at least one leader And Civ who spent most of their time trying to be culturally identified with another Civ (Aleksandros and Makedon with Greece). In other words, Civ VI has no problem using anything vaguely at hand as a Civ Leader and making gamers accept him/her/it.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

Yeah I could see them getting lots of culture and religion from whales and other sea resources.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Yeah I could see them getting lots of culture and religion from whales and other sea resources.

- and Loyalty, based on the Makah Community Whale Feasts, that have some of all those functions.

The Pacific Northwest would be a good place to add a new feature to Civ in general: the Unique Terrain Combination Benefit. Examples:

1. The Pacific Northwest's own massive Salmon Runs on the Columbia, which provided food (and protein) in such abundance that it is simply unbelievable now: one or two rivers on the map (depending on Map Size) that run from mountains a few tiles to the sea and provide great Food Bonuses regardless of any tile improvements.
2. One spot in the world where very fine-grained clay is available so you can develop Porcelain as w3ell as Pottery, providing a Major Trade/Amenity/Luxury Good until Technology catches up to you in the Renaissance Era and Porcelain can be produced by almost anybody.
3. A few spots where very high grade iron ore is available so that a true carbon Steel can be produced early (India was producing High Carbon Steel in the 4th century BC, Classical Era, Damascus may have benefited the same way in the early Medieval Era), giving your Iron-Requiring Units a boost in general combat power, but also increasing their Maintenance Cost - until 'general' steel making catches up in the very late Medieval-early Renaissance Era.

 

[conorbebe]

So I did some researching and under the file Civilizations.artdef for Expansion 1 the Haida do appear as a Civilization along with the other Civs in the expansion and the Khmer and Nubia.

Thank you for taking a look and verifying the claim!

Perhaps this was a repeat of the Pueblo situation in Civ V? Does anyone know what views and stances that Haida have on the depiction of their culture and people in Western media today?