R&F Religious Notes: Deity

d_b

Chieftain
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Any civilization can get a religion and wage religious war in R&F. The caveat is you must get a fast pantheon for Goddess of the Harvest. If you rush this pantheon you can ignore rushing Holy sites and instead build settlers builders and units like a non-religious player might.

The first Governor you get is Magnus. Use cards and builders and chop production stacking it where possible for maximum faith (and production). In this manner your districts etc go up in a timely fashion like a normal Magnus chop situation, but also, you get to just buy a great prophet.

Keep an eye on the great prophets and make sure you buy at least the second to last one (in case Arabia is present).

Don't bother creating your religion till you have holy sites in place and are ready. Like how Arabia can play.

The next governor is Moksha. Upgrade Moksha so Apostles get two promotions.

The dedication is Exodus of the Evangelists. So your religious units can move fast and convert more often.

Work toward the religious government for cheaper Apostles.

Settle well forested lands or wage war to claim lands for clear felling in the big push.

Get your ducks in a row (lands to clear, builders to clear them, Exodus dedication, government with cheaper faith purchases, Moksha upgraded in a city with a temple)...

And then push!

If you are pushing war with your religion, take the Crusade belief. If religion only, Defender of the Faith.

Use an apostle with Heathen conversion to protect your lands bordering unoccupied (barb) territory. Use these fresh recruits to turn your veterans into corps and then armies.

Favorite promotion combos:

Debater/Martyr. Send deep into enemy religious territory and cause havoc expending charges to attract and then slay enemy religious units. Converts multiple cities if played well, especially a pair of them. And a nice relic payoff in the end.

Heathen Conversion/Pilgrimage. 8 barbarian conversion charges to easily convert > 10 units apiece if there's barren land for the barbarians to spawn on. Don't kill the camp. Let the scouts find you :D

Translator/Proselytizer. For very large cities.

Debater/anything. Killing enemy units gives more religious pressure and benefit to you than using charges on buildings especially where cities are tightly packed. So save the last charge and duke it out. Only use a last charge where you'd otherwise die. In some situations a translator/proselytisers charge can do more than winning debates, but not often (huge relatively isolated cities).

So there you have it. How to get a religion for any civ. And how to beat Deity in Religion.

On small maps victory ~ turn 120 - 140. I'm sure expert players could do this very fast.
 
Sounds good...I LOVE Goddess of the Harvest, but don't always get it. IMO, the AI will grab it first or second, so unless I find a "faith" goody hut, have a (religion) City State Envoy, or find some other source of early faith, Harvest goddess is iffy. (This is ignoring Civ's that have UA/UI that produces early faith. Starting as a Civ with not Religion perks (say, Germany, Roome, Persia, etc.), I can do a decent Religious rush by taking the God King civic, and chopping out a great Prophet. (Rushig a Holy Site & Shrine or 2). About half the time I can get Harvest Goddess, but there are other Pantheons that offer nice perks (I'll always take Harvest if it's avilable, but it's not...and that's on Emperor/Immortal). How do you ensure Harvest Goddess, and what is the fallback (plan B)?

If I can't chop for faith, I can still get a pretty good religious game with (depending on the map/terrain/resources), the pantheons that give +2 Faith for Mines/Quarries, 1 Culture/Pasture, or 1 Production/Sea resource worked. In a pinch, the 1 culture/plantation or 1 food/camp will do, bbuut I rarely have that much trouble getting a decent pantheon (Just not always Harvest). I almost always pick Choral Music & one of the Gold/citizen or City beliefs, as by the time I get a religion they are always still available. If I get a shot at it, I would take the Food or Culture for Shrines & Temples, and consider myself lucky. +25% Religious Pressure (or extra spreads, or greater range), and I'm good to go...picking up some extra eraa score for having all 4 Religious beliefs.

I have not been able to out--spam the AI with Apostles, so I usually meet a religious push with Military force (DOW).

To be fair, this is not a total-Religion approach, but use of Religion for perks, supplemented by a strong military, and decent Science, Culture, Gold, ect. This works well, but it is so critical to get an early Pantheon/Religion, that I find naked aggression more straightforward.

One of these days I;ll try a strategy that does not rely on naked force. :p
 
The pantheon is critical. It is possible to generate lots of faith with Earth Mother, or the proximity to jungle/tundra/desert pantheons depending on location/civ...

But as stated, this strategy depends on Harvest. So much so that once you play it you will also begin to wonder if Magnus or the pantheon need to be nerfed. My strategies normally always point out something to be nerfed, cos I aint that good. :D

This option can also be applied to snatch up other early great people, as seen in the Chinese T89 culture win, which I 'replicated' for a turn 105 win. Almost peaceful but I'm not an AI whisperer like some, I aint that good.

Beating the AI at spamming religious units? I forgot to mention the cards. There are cards to increase faith generation, and cards to increase faith combat strength - take the +5 religious combat strength, now an average apostle is a killer, too.

If two debaters walk in to a pit of 8 enemy apostles, two debaters walk out. You might be working to supplement your faith generation with holy sites et al, but it's not completely necessary if you can take lands on a roll your faith doesn't ever need to let up. I start a turn with 08 faith, chop chop, apostle, chop chop, another...

I don't suck up to AI. I demolish them for being stupid. I'm polite and respectful and they're a pack of dicks, so war is typically inevitable. In one test game of this strategy I went Germany and got DOWed turn 07. That was a turn 120 win. France DOWed, France donated all their lands to the Harvest.

Upon the game reaching a point where your military is good to go and your religion is also strong, you can snowball much like the AI used to do to you. At that point Magnus gets the city with most chops but everyone is chopping. Chopping in Wonders, districts, whatever, chop it all. Spam those religious units relentlessly, be bloody minded, and win.

I'm quite sure Global Warming is due to this strategy, I must apologize. ;)

The fastest times in the world use Harvest, I'm a converted amateur, spreading the Gospel of Harvest.
 
Here's a tough 'religious' start. Only a couple of chops in the first two cities, and then I put in the wrong card missing the added production off the builders. Turn 57 to eke out the last prophet beating the Zulu just... If Arabia was in I'd not have got it. I'm also 1 turn away from snatching the scientist Hypatia (free library, libraries +1) off Shaka as well. He's gonna hate me, already dislikes me, and is bristling with swords. The great people are both obtainable via harvest without it I'd have missed them.

I declared a surprise war on Persia. My free ruin scout got two and near to three upgrades then met Cyrus pounding on a city state. I sit on a jungle hill between two mountains and declare war. Then, one more upgrade to ambush and three dead Persian units later he's suing for peace and loves me for my surprise tactics. Free gold. War vs Deity AI, 1 scout, human wins.

Seondeok is not geared for religion at all. I figure in this scenario though, religion can pay for her educational buildings (Jesuit education) saving loads of time to get her science very high. I can wait till I'm ready to spam religion and education buildings all out at once, letting the AI waste their faith on each other.

Religion 1.jpg


Anyways, it was a tough haul to get the prophet, but there it is. Sitting on it seems smarter than popping it right now; though defender would help the potential Shaka problem. I'll eat my words if someone else takes Jesuit education or Shaka takes my cities.

Found lots of woods, a few hills and the odd luxury in the tundra I'm now exploring. I can chop those woods, spam science and commerce sites with the production, and build up a faith bank for later.

The harvest pantheon makes the choice of a religious victory possible for non-religious leaning civs, but it's not necessarily a smart choice.

As far as a science victory goes, I'm not liking the territory at all for production. And I know little to nothing about Seondeok play except what I've read on the label. Maybe I can tech up to the Hwacha real fast and go Crusading on a war bender?

Maybe.
 
It's typically 750, but it changes at times and I don't know the mechanics of why. Possibly when AI purchase them.

In the above game I ate my words almost instantly. As I snatched the prophet from Shaka he had the faith left to purchase Hypatia so I missed out. That same turn barb horsemen killed my level 4 war hero scout, and barb swordsmen almost took 2/3 archers. I used my not-getting-Hypatia faith to spam settlers going from 3 - 6 cities in a few turns.

But I've made so many mistakes early, and had no real plan to begin with, I doubt I'll finish that game. It was late, I was tireder than I thought...
 
Thanks Raid&Trade, I'd noticed a trend of questions here and elsewhere that go something like: how do you get a fast (insert type) victory in R&F.

The answer is a coordination of cards, governors, sometimes wonders, and concentrated effort towards specific goals. This is volumes of information to piece together with the number of civs and thus variables in the game let alone adding the map and city state variables...

Yet, without a plan, things can get crazy pretty quick and I can wind up pushed around by circumstances rather than forging a path to my goal/s. I might still get there, but it takes much longer.

Magnus is a sure thing, and a game changer with Harvest, but then you get a wood-poor map like the one above and the prophet grab was still a grind which I'd almost claimed earlier it wasn't. Then the tundra cities, what was I thinking? Can't build 2 districts in cities that wont grow, doh.

Scuse me, still learning from how badly I was playing that, except my awesome scout with 3 x kills (his units were already beat up from the city state).

Back to: Religion!

Pantheon spamming can seem daunting at first. Running about and getting non-faith ruins, meeting non-faith city states, all while hoping to delay your actual holy site in preference for expansion and/or troops, but still you got 0 faith... You get the card, now you got 1 faith, is it really gonna take another 25 turns...

Maybe, but rarely. But the card helps a lot of times - to top up meeting a city state, to top a 20 faith ruin, or hasten any other small generation you have.

The early faith you require for the pantheon can come from a luxury you settle. It can come from a religious city state, or a lucky ruin. It can come from spamming out an early holy site if you want to... It can come from meeting someone and pillaging their: holy site or/faith bearing luxury. It can come from settling close to and grabbing a tile of a faith bearing natural wonder. Ya gotta have faith you're gonna have faith.

The fact the map can often force changes to otherwise more rigid plans is a credit to the game. But it can mess with your plans if they involve a speed run or personal record.

Those very fast times might require coordination of Governors, Diplomacy, Cards, Governments, Wonders, concentrated effort, a good map, AND... a touch of luck with early barbs yielding bonuses not costing time.

The fact there are actually so many ways to get a seemingly ephemeral early game resource like faith indicates how, throughout the game, there are many options. It is this series of options that makes civ great, it is also why it's so hard to spell out ABC type strategies.

But Magnus and Harvest combo are huge.
 
Excellent write-up. Another question...what is the advantage of getting a prophet and not using him? (see quote).
Sitting on it seems smarter than popping it right now; though defender would help the potential Shaka problem. I'll eat my words if someone else takes Jesuit education or Shaka takes my cities.

Sorry, not used to the format...first time I used "quote."
 
Hey Spudsie. When you use a prophet all your cities with holy sites convert to your religion. By saving it I allow the computer to waste time and faith converting me and each other, basically ignoring the faith battle till I am ready for it. So I was not bothering with holy sites till I'm good and ready. The payoff is to save a lot of faith, and you enter the 'religious war' side of things with the advantage of cheaper Apostles and missionaries while your opponents have already escalated their costs. Additional savings might be gained by waiting all the way to religious government.

A disadvantage is that you may lose out on beliefs you wish for. And if you wait till the govt you may miss out on some inspirations.
 
No problem I'm glad it helps.

One thing players may experience when delaying religion is getting locked out of Holy Sites. By this I mean other districts get built and when it's time to build Holy Sites precluding a religious or religious/military push - you lack the population (or the hammers, also an issue) to spam them out. This means you miss out on instant city conversion when the religion is established, and the faith gain of the sites themselves.

Having pre-built Holy Sites makes sense, IF they're not blocking crucial other infrastructure. In this manner a 'faith bank' can get considerable especially when added to faith income from Harvest.

As mentioned, in addition to needing the population slots for religion, you need the hammers.

Chopping can obviously help. But it's not always available.

Germany, who I have heard called weak in the context of civs to use religion, is particularly good at delaying religion. This is due to the extra district they are allowed, and once the Hansas go up, religious buildings are significantly easier to add.

Russia's unique Holy Site the Lavra allows them to build Holy sites in half the time.

Japans half cost Holy Site/Encampment/Theater Square ability helps them.

There are many civs that are viable for participating in a Prophet race, but if you get the Harvest Pantheon, there are better early game options, like military, and expansion. Using methods similar to those outlined above one might have their cake and eat it too.
 
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