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Radical Islam

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by WICKLC1, Jul 11, 2008.

  1. Truronian

    Truronian Quite unfamiliar Retired Moderator

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    The radical Islam you speak of in the title is bad, but Islam in general? Depends on the Muslim. Most are perfectly agreeable people.
     
  2. QuoVadisNation

    QuoVadisNation keeping your angel alive

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    I believe civfanatics has some old topics on this very issue in the archives. The OP being very direct and the discussion going on for pages. They were made by Winner, Aneeshm, and a few others. The threads discussed whether Islam, the religion, is fundamentally violent but the individuals 'adapt' and choose to remain peaceful or whether Islam is fundamentally peaceful but the individuals are the ones who make it hostile.

    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=106999

    On a note, it's important to remember that individual 'hostile' Muslims come mostly from certain parts of the worlds; areas where a feeling of prolonged discrimination is fostered on a personal level making those Muslims prone to accepting radicalized versions of one world view (usually one that combats the discrimination, btw). No one can say there are more 'home-brewed' Muslim terrorists in America and Canada than in England and Palestine.
     
  3. HannibalBarka

    HannibalBarka We are Free

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    I see many american/british/chineze/russian blowing up people to "defend" their countries, are all those nations full of "extremists", shouldn't all be brought to the 21st century? or is it OK to "defend" your nation but not your religion?
     
  4. HannibalBarka

    HannibalBarka We are Free

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    The land controlled by the Califate was certainly taken by the sword (how else?) but for centuries many of the conquered kept their religion. Muslim conquerors were more interested in the land than in converting the people. Up to WWII, the religious spectrum was much more diversified in muslim lands (form Morocco to Indonesia) than in Christian lands. The only true religious minority in the West were the Jews and we all know how it ended. Many "muslim" countries on the other hand had a sizable minority of christians (Egypt, Syria, Iraq), jews (morocco, tunisia, yemen, Iraq, Iran) and hindu (India, Indonisia). In Europe however every "schism" ended in a blood bath from the Cathare to religious war under the Reform.
     
  5. Fox Mccloud

    Fox Mccloud Deity

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    Islam is not unlike any other of humanity's systematic faiths in being substantiated by beliefs and solely by those beliefs that are coordinated into a culture's values and belief system of devotee expression by the institutions in those cultures where it becomes dominant. Those devotees come to hold the faith's values as unquestionable moral and factual truism collaborated and proven by man-made institutional leaders of moral or societal imperatives. Imperatives that often disguised as if it was God's imperatives and thus God's will, and whole societies believing it is God's will to force others to convert, to attack or oppress others under what is ostensibly the "one true faith" by those few who hold power. This was as much true in Medieval Christian Europe as it was in Islam, then and now.

    I'm sure I made that as clear as mud.....

    Yet Islam is profoundly and ultimately founded and derived in the nearly univeral hope that there is good in man, that there is life after death and mostly of all that an infinitly higher force or power, something bigger then we are whether it is called God or Allah, guides us and controls the universe. That is the common foundation of all religions in it's purist form...

    that
    is all
     
  6. LucyDuke

    LucyDuke staring at the clock

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    I'm not reading all this insanity, just saying this.

    1) Who decides what Islam's "purest form" is, and what is it?

    2) Any god that expects evil acts from its subjects/followers/adherents/whatever-you-want-to-call-them is an evil god and that god and its s/f/a/w may be dismissed out of hand. If a group insists that its god expects from them what humanity otherwise deems evil, then that group alone is responsible for their interpretation. Another group that claims the same god's name but does not claim that that god expects them to do evil shouldn't be tainted with the association with the other group.

    What I'm saying is "who gives a crap whether Islam in its purest form is peaceful or violent?" What matters is that those who perform violence in the name of Islam are to be shunned, and their flavor of Islam disrespected, and that those who insist on peace in the name of Islam are to be embraced as fellow men, and their flavor of Islam to be respected as a path a decent man may take.

    Is water in its purest form hot or cold?
     
  7. Duke of Marlbrough

    Duke of Marlbrough The Quiet Moderator Retired Moderator

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  8. Gooblah

    Gooblah Heh...

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    Who determines the 'purest form' of Islam, let alone any religion. All religions are subject to the individual's interpretation of its texts, values, their own culture...thus leading to sects and radicals in all religions. Most modern religions also spread by the sword, or at least indirectly. Roman wars of conquest paved the way for the spread of Christianity. Pizarro and other European conquistadors/conquerors did the same thing. Hinduism had its fair share of wars and conversion. Same thing with Confucianism. The few religions I see spreading without the sword would be Taoism and Buddhism and (maybe) Shintoism. Christianity and Judaism both oppress minorities (homosexuals, anyone?). And have you met any Muslims? I have. All of them condemn the many attacks made by radicals in the past and present (and future, probably). I have also met a few radical Muslims who do not apologize for the actions of others.

    We point out the bad things about religions and other groups all the time. Scientology debates, Waco, the civil rights movement internationally, women's (and other) suffrage movements...all movements for or against a group.

    Currently, it is. However, Columbine, Oklahoma City, and other instances are examples of homegrown terror. Should we not war on those too (I think we should)? The War on Terror is labeled a war on terror due to the willingness of this nation and many others to rise up against terrorists of all kinds...Muslim or otherwise.
     
  9. m4gill4

    m4gill4 King

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    I would draw the author's attention to the Ottoman Empire, for 400 years the home of the Islamic Caliph, functional equivalent to the pope.

    The Ottoman Empire, throughout most of its history, pursued a policy of tolerance towards Christians and other minorities. In fact, for the first 5 centuries or so after Sultan Murad I, Christians EXCLUSIVELY were promoted to powerful positions in government and civil service, so as to give them a vested interest in the state. Muslims were forbidden from serving in government, Christians forbidden from serving in the military. An interesting system.

    At that time (~1000-1500 A.D.), due to the frequent (and terribly brutal) conflicts between eastern and western Catholicism, it was actually quite common for Christians in Greece and other Balkan areas to view the Turks as liberators from their Christian oppressors. Many Balkan eastern orthodox Christians preferred the lenient rule and freedom of worship provided by the Ottomans to the harsh oppression and religious persecution of Roman Catholic rule of the Venetians or others.

    Christians in the Ottoman empire were encouraged to convert to Islam using economic/tax incentives, but not (except in a few isolated periods) forced through violence. This is because Mehmed II, upon conquering Constantinople, wanted his new city of Istanbul to be a cosmopolitan place where merchants and artisans from far and wide could prosper.

    I use this example to demonstrate that Islam is not fundamentally a violent/repressive/domineering religion. Like all religions, Islam can be interpreted many different ways. It is a sad fact that some in today's world choose to interpret it as a justification for political violence, but I would put that number far below the thread-starter's random figure. That does not mean it is a fundamentally violent religion.

    Any religion can be (and most have been) twisted to justify just about anything. That is a historical truism which Coulter or Limbaugh or whoever you got this diatribe from is conveniently forgetting.
     
  10. Gooblah

    Gooblah Heh...

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    But..but...the Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam and the Crusades says he's right...*cries*

    And to be on-topic, I remember reading about that last year in world history. I couldn't cite it since I don't have the book anymore, but that tidbit about the first 5 years of the Ottomans was quite interesting.
     
  11. Bigfoot3814

    Bigfoot3814 Deity

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  12. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    Islam is nice enough that any decent bloke will easily be a decent bloke if he follows Islam.
     
  13. sysyphus

    sysyphus So they tell me

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    True enough, people are what they are, they don't need religion to mould their personality, they manifest themselves through it.
     
  14. WICKLC1

    WICKLC1 King

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    The thing is that Muslims have actually been bombing people in the name of their religion, Christians and Jews have not.
     
  15. WICKLC1

    WICKLC1 King

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    Yes actually, I went to a school with a relatively large Muslim population.
     
  16. WICKLC1

    WICKLC1 King

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    I havn't heard many. The radicals are always much louder than the moderates. That was true with Nazi Germany, and its true with Islam.
     
  17. WICKLC1

    WICKLC1 King

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    It is strange how the Muslim nations used to be some of the most advanced and cultured in the world, but they are now some of the most oppressive and backward.

    Who/what decides the purest form of Islam? The Koran.

    It is a war against radical Islam because terrorist attacks by non-Muslims are isolated incidents with vastly different motivations, while attacks by Muslims have been connected by the same motivations, ideologies, and sometimes the same people. Also, the people we are fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan are all radical Muslims. I think the Bush administration just called it a war on terror to avoid angering Muslims.

    We usually only point out the problems with Christians and white people, its racist to point out anyone else's problems.
     
  18. Red Door

    Red Door Man of Mayhem

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    Are we talking historically in the last 100 years or only recently? If historically, you're just plain wrong.
     
  19. LucyDuke

    LucyDuke staring at the clock

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    Bullkaka copout. The bible decides the purest form of Christianity, right?

    Who's doing the interpretation? This crap doesn't exactly explain itself.
     
  20. aelf

    aelf Ashen One

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    Then you are living in your own shell. Maybe you live in a small town of foot-washing Baptists or something. I read and hear about Muslims condemning their extremist counterparts quite often. So, yeah, you're wrong.
     

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