raging barbarians

[Deadly Dog]

Yeah but you get more of em to kill in the same time, just as you get less at faster speeds.

Fine on the other questions, what do you mean by this?

Isn't it the case that the first barb horse units to arrive are slightly weaker, like 24 CS? Then at some point, I don't know when, they achieve the full combat strength of a horseman? I really have to make notes while playing this is something I noticed long ago then filed away and forgot until just the other day.

 

[UWHabs]

Isn't it the case that the first barb horse units to arrive are slightly weaker, like 24 CS? Then at some point, I don't know when, they achieve the full combat strength of a horseman? I really have to make notes while playing this is something I noticed long ago then filed away and forgot until just the other day.

Yeah, I know early barb horses are only 20 or 25 strength. I don't know when they become a full horseman - I seem to remember hearing that it was when someone build a horseman otherwise, but I don't know if that's still the case or if I'm remembering that correctly.

 

[Reckoner]

I was going to start a new thread but I guess we’ll see what this one does.
I’m going to write a barb guide as there are a few bits and pieces in there that I did not know about when I started looking into it.
So anyone got any particular knowledge or questions they have, some comments in this thread work well already but just offering it out there.

Thank you for taking the time to make (yet another) useful guide for us =]
The developers had an interesting discussion regarding barbarian mechanics in one of the streams, I just can't remember which one.

my couple of cents:
* There are 3 kinds of barbarian camps: Standard, Horse & Coastal. I swear I once saw a ship spawn from a camp that was 1 tile away from the coast, not sure if this option was later blocked.

* A camp will usually spawn a recon-class unit first, unless it's under attack. If the recon unit returns with a path to a city center, the camp will spawn a Raiding party (Ranged + Melee/Cavalry?) targeting this city. I don't have any idea regarding the conditions needed for the camp to spawn a Sacking party (Siege + Melee/Cavalry?) or how exactly those terms are translated for a coastal camp.

* Somewhere over the last 2-3 patches/updates, they changed barbs behaviour so they won't throw themselves to die when in clear disadvantage. More often than not, that actually makes them fortify in place ("thinking" they would heal???) rather than run away.

* In my experience, barb units (maybe even AI in general?) don't take into account the healing from pillaging certain improvements & districts. So they sometimes pillage the farm first, when they are still in full health.\

* As far as I remember, It used to be that barbs can spawn an advanced unit when at least one player has the tech unlocking them, not by the average tech era.

 

[Victoria]

one player has the tech

Now half the players have the tech
Not sure I can get too detailed on the AI part of them WRT pillaging. They have general rule sets, not specific optimisation paths which would make a forest rather than a tree.

 

[AlanC9]

What's the rule for how fast camps spawn units? Sometimes they pump them out faster than I can kill them for a while.

 

[Victoria]

What's the rule for how fast camps spawn units? Sometimes they pump them out faster than I can kill them for a while.

Up to immortal the spawn rate is 1 per 2 turns for a raid or a city attack, above that it is 1/turn... there is a set number of units and it is shed loads on deity.Will put all the details in final doc.
Interestingly, random barbs can spawn from a camp every 15 turns but there seems some variation.

 

[Tuvok694]

why cant we have options? like wet, standard, hot, random? none, easy, medium, raging, random?

There is not a single reason why they should not give us these options. They existed in previous versions, why not in Civ6?
When I finally have enough archers to take out that barb camp they spawn crossbows, and when I finally have my own crossbows, they spawn field cannons. And so it goes on and on for countless turns, I keep losing units and have to repair my pillaged districts over and over again. I cannot understand how anyone might think this is fun.

 

[Victoria]

When I finally have enough archers to take out that barb camp

A single warrior can take out a barb camp
A slinger and a warrior can take it out fast because the barb will chase the slinger
It is purely about stopping a scout spotting a city and getting back to camp.
The rest is not so tricky.

I just started a game on emperor and on turn 11 there is a barb camp 4 tiles from my capital with two horsemen that killed my scout. and that is apparently par for the course for this patch.

after many many test start I can say with confidence that a barb camp 4 tiles from your city is a Very rare beast unless You are packing extra civs and CS in. 1 camp within 4 tiles over 8 civs happens perhaps once per 4 games but naturally on higher difficulties there is less places to spawn. It happens, but it does not happen every game by any means and often not to you but one of the civs near you which helps you a lot. If you have 8 civs the first 20 turns of the game (Roughly) spawn camps at most, then they stop apart from quite random ones.
I recommend you keep your scout/sling/warrior fending off barb scouts for the first 20 turns and keeping that visibility around your city up. You lower the odds hugely.
Even when a camp spawns within 4, the scout starts on the NE tile of the camp and moves randomly so can completely miss your city.
Putting your city on a hill Hugely increases the chances of a barb raid against you. The scouts can see your city from 3 tiles then rather than 2 and can see It over woods and hills (but not wooded hills) They need to see your city, not just the borders like other civs do.
You can take the approach that barbs no longer will destroy your capital so you can ignore them but once your city is spotted you are the target of a barb spawning camp for about 50 turns.

What's the rule for how fast camps spawn units? Sometimes they pump them out faster than I can kill them for a while.

on immortal or deity it is 1/turn but more units at deity. Below it is every 2 turns and less units with every level. They spawn in 2 sets. A set to raid you which times out after roughly 20 turns and then they city attack you with another set if any of their raid troops got back to camp. A city attack differs in it has siege units and lasts roughly 30 turns.

they spawn an archer when half the civs have archers... and so on. So they get support and flanking when half the civs have military tradition. They are a horse camp if there are horses within 3 tiles but these are weak horses until half the civs have horsemanship.

You must keep up with tech or fog bust, doing neither means you will hate barbs big time.
Early army means less barb hassle and more chance of a golden classical era unless you have a few CS nearby why heavily target barb camps.

Civs that are not coastal are much more vulnerable to barbs although an early barb quad is unpleasant.

 

[Bibor]

Now half the players have the tech

Can confirm got archers spawn and I didn't even have Animal Husbandry
(but at least one of the AIs had an archer; small map, emperor).

 

[azmundai]

By having a second warrior and/or not using your first warrior as a long range scout? You took that risk.

I like how you assume he didn't build a second warrior, or that he was scouting with his warrior .. as if a warrior can do much, when close to his city, when a scout comes around.

Care to explain how you have a second warrior on turn 3? or before turn 8? Online speed?
Care to explain how you chase down a scout with a warrior?
Care to explain how two warriors can both guard all directions and catch a faster unit?
Care to explain how to defend against the OTHER bard scout that comes by while you are trying to chase down and kill the first one?

I almost always guild 2 scouts first, because of barbs. Because scouts are much more capable of actually dealing with barb scouts. I still have to restart over and over most games with these new updates because there are constantly more barb scouts than I have units to deal with.

 

[Deadly Dog]

Even when a camp spawns within 4, the scout starts on the NE tile of the camp and moves randomly so can completely miss your city.
Putting your city on a hill Hugely increases the chances of a barb raid against you. The scouts can see your city from 3 tiles then rather than 2 and can see It over woods and hills (but not wooded hills) .

Every so often you think you've got it figured out and then someone drops another pearl.

Here I've been settling on every plains hill I can within 2 turns so I can get + 1 prod on my city tile, without ever considering the strategic risk.

 

[Bibor]

Here I've been settling on every plains hill I can within 2 turns so I can get + 1 prod on my city tile, without ever considering the strategic risk.

Settling on a plains hill is still a significant advantage, especially for the first three cities. And that extra production (spent on military units) is not wasted.

 

[Victoria]

Settling on a plains hill is still a significant advantage, especially for the first three cities. And that extra production (spent on military units) is not wasted.

And that’s the risk... and it is a risk. One cannot complain sat on a hill when an early red tide washes their dreams away.

 

[Bibor]

And that’s the risk... and it is a risk. One cannot complain sat on a hill when an early red tide washes their dreams away.

Arguably, it’s a question of local safety vs. exploration. I’m not so convinced that a flatland settle will save you if the red tide is really coming. A few units might. On the flipside, the red tide also affects the AI, sometimes interfering and sometimes helping with early rushes.

 

[AlanC9]

I almost always guild 2 scouts first, because of barbs. Because scouts are much more capable of actually dealing with barb scouts. I still have to restart over and over most games with these new updates because there are constantly more barb scouts than I have units to deal with.

When a strategy repeatedly fails, you should probably question its effectiveness.

 

[azmundai]

When a strategy repeatedly fails, you should probably question its effectiveness.

wow you are so smart .. can you teach me?

so you are saying, building the cheapest units as fast as I can, units which are faster and more likely to catch up to the unit I am trying to deal with is worse than building slower units more slowly?

and thanks for answering the questions about how to accomplish that instead of just stroking your epeen. very helpful.

 

[lotrmith]

wow you are so smart .. can you teach me?

so you are saying, building the cheapest units as fast as I can, units which are faster and more likely to catch up to the unit I am trying to deal with is worse than building slower units more slowly?

and thanks for answering the questions about how to accomplish that instead of just stroking your epeen. very helpful.

I mean, scouts are terrible at killing scouts. There's a reason this strategy isn't working for you.

 

[azmundai]

I mean, scouts are terrible at killing scouts. There's a reason this strategy isn't working for you.

Scouts are perfectly capable of killing scouts. More importantly they excel at getting between your warrior and their camp and pushing them towards your warrior.
How do you chase down a scout with a warrior then? Because it never works for me. Even when the scout runs right into my warrior, he just turns around and runs back to his camp. Previously this was fine, two warriors and a slinger .. I can deal with that. Now it's an endless stream of 1 turn units.

 

[Victoria]

Scouts are perfectly capable of killing scouts.

Scouts are as good at killing scouts as warriors are at killing warriors.
The advantage with barb scouts is +5 Vs barbs and the fact you don’t chase them, you be aware of their visibility and behaviour and then ambush them or corral them.

 

[Tuvok694]

A single warrior can take out a barb camp
A slinger and a warrior can take it out fast because the barb will chase the slinger

What you wrote might sometimes work in the very first turns of the game but not later on. And you have to be lucky to discover the camp in the first place.
If that camp has already spawned archers and horsemen you cannot do much with your glorious warrior.
I admit that I do not understand how anyone can say the current state of the game concerning barbarians is "fine". On the other hand the problem would be solved if the developers finally implemented an option to chose the aggressiveness level of the barbs. That cannot be so hard.