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Raliuven SG2 Demi-God Aztecs

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Succession Games' started by Raliuven, Sep 2, 2011.

  1. Raliuven

    Raliuven Emperor

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    Sorry for being out of the loop, my cable & internet went down over the weekend so I've been in limbo. Hopefully it will be fixed tomorrow. Until then I am stuck responding from work. :( I actually considered coming into work over the weekend to download the save, but the impending mountain of yardwork made that impossible.

    It doesn't necessarily need to be a one or the other choice. :D With France's recent DOW vs the Iroquois (You would think they would have learned the first time they got :spank:), they might be weak enough for us to roll over in a turn or two as a a side show of mopping up Egypt. If it looks like the Iroquois are going to set up house on our island, it might a good idea to put France down and minimize the Iroquios foot print.
     
  2. CKS

    CKS Deity

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    Well, then, I've got it. I'll try to finish by tomorrow night.
     
  3. CKS

    CKS Deity

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    Turn 0:
    Things look good. Move cavs into Ecatepec (by Egypt) and swap a couple of builds to settlers.
    IBT: Greek workers run into the towns we are about to take. Learn Physics, start ToG.

    Turn 1:
    At Knossos: Cannons go 2/2. Cavs kill 2 muskets, Eknight kills longbow, takes city, two workers.
    At Eretria: 1 retreat, 2 wins as cavs take city, 4 workers.
    Move on Ephesus. Pull out of Rhodes in case of flip.
    IBT: Iroquois and Greece make peace. Longbow kills AC, longbow retreats cav. Wine deal expires.

    Turn 2:
    Trade ivory + 15 gpt to Spain for wines. Lux to 30%.
    At Ephesus: Cavs kill 2 muskets, AC kills longbow, takes city, one worker.
    EAC kills longbow, Ecav kills longbow.
    At Sparta: kill 3 muskets, lose 2 cavs.
    Switch Tenochtitlan to jags for resistance quelling. Short-rush some cavs in 10 spt cities.
    IBT: Greeks move a longbow out. French knight dies at Sparta.

    Turn 3:
    We lose 2 cavs at Sparta before taking it, and Sun Tzu's.
    Cav dies to 3/4 hoplite at Troy. Cav kills longbow near Troy.
    IBT: Maya and Japan learn military tradition.

    Turn 4:
    Lots of movement.
    IBT: Egypt signs on with Maya against Iroquois. Greek longbow dies attacking French pike.

    Turn 5:
    Cavs kill 2 muskets at Mycenae, take city and a worker.
    At Athens: 2 cavs die, 1 retreats, 1 dies. Wait for cannons.
    At Troy: Cavs kill 2 hoplites.
    IBT: Sparta flips.

    Turn 6:
    Cavs kill 2 muskets at Corinth, 1 retreat.
    Kill hoplite at Marathon.
    IBT: Spain and Maya learn Economics. Japan declares on Iroquois.

    Turn 7:
    Cavs kill 2 hoplites at Sparta, take city.
    IBT: Learn ToG. Corinth flips. Rhodes flips.

    turn 8:
    Cav kills hoplite, takes Marathon.
    Cav kills hoplite, retakes Corinth.
    Rotten luck at Athens continues. Several retreats and 2 dead cavs kill one musket. Most cavs remove only 1 hp.
    IBT: Egypt makes peace with Greece.

    Turn 9:
    Cav retreats at Rhodes. Pillage near Athens.
    IBT: Spain finished Magellan's.

    Turn 10:
    Maya and Japan have Magnetism. I think we should trade ToG for it. Japan has luxes and money; Maya has only techs. I will leave the actual trading for the next person, as this will put us into the industrial age. I would not gift up Greece, because of our war situation, but the team needs to make the decision.
    Cavs kills two hoplites at Rhodes, take city.
    AC kills longbow near Athens.
    Cav retreats at Halicarnassus.
     

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  4. Elephantium

    Elephantium Elephants think that people are cute, like puppies

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    I think we should avoid trading ToG until Newton's comes in.
     
  5. CKS

    CKS Deity

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    Whoops! Sorry, I forgot that bit of information. We built Newton's on the IBT after turn 7, wasting a mere 110 shields or so.
     
  6. Raliuven

    Raliuven Emperor

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    Okay, I've got the save. I hopefully will have internet tonight so I can post any discussion points and/or my turns as appropriate. I'll check to see what we can steal for our nice new tech.
     
  7. Elephantium

    Elephantium Elephants think that people are cute, like puppies

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    LOL, talk about a long prebuild!
     
  8. CKS

    CKS Deity

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    A note about flipping: Flip risks in Greece are very high, so don't leave valuable units in these cities. (That's why I built some jags, so they could work on quelling resistance without it mattering much if they were lost. I built jags rather than warriors because they are speedy.) We want to keep these cities, especially Athens and Sparta; the others we could replace if we had settlers enough. My plan was to take everything except one southern city (Pergamon?) before making peace. Once the capital is far to the south, flip risks will drop to manageable levels.
     
  9. Raliuven

    Raliuven Emperor

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    Well, I must say this was a great set of turns - very fun. Thanks for the setup CKS! Small problem at the end but more irritating than anything. Greece is pretty much done. A few flips but with minimal effect. We have steam and could do quite well by trading it. Not sure if we want to do that, though. I'll leave it to discussion. I tend to hold back steam for a while. We are a few turns into Electricity. I do not have a prebuild for ToE yet - but we could put it in our capital after the university builds.

    I sent our workers to connect the two sources of coal in our lands but we still have no iron. The available sources are incredibly expensive. I am in favor of overrunning France in a quick war to claim one of their two sources.

    We have an cav army in the field and we can build the HE but I did not start it yet.

    Here is the Log:
    Spoiler :
    Start Turn 190 [750 AD]

    Sliders: 20/50/30

    Units (Allowed: 79, Total: 63, Support: 0gpt)

    Workers: 29 (+slaves)
    LB: 1
    Musket: 1
    Knight: 2
    Cav: 15
    Cannon: 8
    Jags: 4
    AC: 3

    Tech Trade:

    France – doesn’t even have physics. France won’t give us Iron for physics and military tradition. Guess we’ll need to seize iron if we want to build RRs. They have no salt.
    Egypt – still being unreasonable. They’ll give WM, 1gpt & 60gp for ToG but they won’t throw in Iron for the deal. They have no salt.
    Greece – at war, doesn’t have physics.
    Iroquois – WM, 58gpt, 113gp for ToG
    Japan – For ToG will give Magnetism, Economics, Spices (or Silk), 275gp. Or Magnetism, Spices, Silks, 550gp.
    Spain – For ToG lacks Magnetism, will give Democracy, Economics, 200gp.
    Mayans – won’t trade much at all for ToG. They appear to be broke. I can only get one of the following: Economics, Democracy, or Magnetism.

    It appears that Japan is at the forefront of research with us and they have two luxuries for sale and I want them both. Grr.

    Final Trades:
    Japan: ToG & Ivory for Magnetism, Spices, Silks, 710gp & 1gpt. I threw in the Ivory to give them an incentive not to break their deal with us.
    The Mayans are off the table – they won’t give up anything they know for ToG. That means we don’t get Democracy. Whatever shall we do?
    Spain: ToG for Economics & 650gp. We still have Magnetism over them.
    Iroquois: ToG for WM, 58gpt, 113gp – all they have except for their iron.
    Egypt: Economics for WM, 60gp, +1gpt.

    Total for ToG & Ivory: Techs: Magnetism, Economics. Spices & Silks. 1533gp, 60gpt.

    Lux down to 10%, Science up to 80%. Start Steam due in 8t @ +18 gpt, best we can get for now. The next player can have fun building RR (assuming we can dig up some coal).

    Tlatelolco needs a market more than a university at the moment – swap university to marketplace due in 6t. Rush for 300gp. Set to starve for 1 round but won’t lose population.
    Tlaxcala also needs a market, swap to Cav & rush for 288gp. Swap to market due in 3t.
    Calixtlahuaca is in the same position. Rush Cav for 128gp. Swap to market due in 3t.
    Xochicalco gets the same treatment, cost 40gp, market due in 4t.
    Tlacopan the same. Cost 128gp, market due in 3t. Give it a scientist for 1 turn.
    Malinalco the same. Cost 96gp, market due in 2t. 3 clowns for now.
    Tula gets a scientist until the market completes in 2t.
    Teayo gets a scientist.
    Tepexpan gets a scientist for now. Swap Library to Market.
    Tequixquiac gets two scientists.
    Cempoala gets two scientists
    Ecatepec gets a scientist
    Chiauhtia gets two scientists. We need a few settlers so rush here for 72gp.
    Coatepec gets two scientists. Rush settler for 60gp.
    Chalco swapped to a courthouse, it is about 50% corrupt
    Edfu gets one more scientist for three scientists
    Tepetlaoxtoc is about 60% corrupt. Swap harbor to courthouse.
    Ixtapaluca gets two scientists
    Teruel gets two scientists
    Coyotepec gets a scientist
    Jilotzingo is 66% corrupt. Swap settler to courthouse after swapping to nearby mined hill.
    Tultitlan gets two scientists
    Rearrange Teotihuacan to put everyone back to work without disrupting Chiconautla’s courthouse build.
    Chapultepec gets a scientist.
    Chalchihuites gets a scientist. Swap courthouse to settler. Rush for 68gp.

    We are down to 804gp.

    Hit enter.

    IBT: Greece and France sign a peace treaty.

    Turn 191 [760AD]

    Tenoch: Cav=>Cav
    Tlat: Marketplace=>University
    Knossos: Worker=>Worker
    Chalchihuites: Settler=>Settler
    Atzcapotzalco: Harbor=>Cav
    Chiauhtia: Settler=>Settler
    Coatepec: Settler=>Settler
    Eretia: Worker=>Worker
    Tlalmanalco: Cav=>Marketplace
    Tultitlan: Worker=>Settler

    Somehow we are still steam due in 8t. After some MM, back to due in 7t @ +16gpt.

    Battle for Athens: Cannons go 5 for 6 and knock a point off 5 musket defenders. :( That’s all the defending musket they have, at least for now. Stack units for the attack. I should have 10 units in position to attack next round.

    Do some pillaging.

    IBT – Greek LB moves out of Athens.

    Turn 192 [770AD]

    Malinalco: Marketplace=>Cav
    Tula: Marketplace=>Cav

    Battle for Athens: Cannons go 4 for 6. I decide time is on our side and wait one more turn as I stack units.
    6/6 AC vs 4/4 LB – flawless win.

    Build Iztapan: Settler
    Build Mingapulco: Settler

    IBT – Greek LB moves towards Athens. Too late buddy.

    Turn 193 [780AD]

    Tlaxacala: Market=>Cav
    Calix: Market=>Cav
    Tlacopan: Market=>Jag for garrison duty.
    Troy riots. Make a scientist.

    Battle for Athens (city is starving, down to pop 8): Cannons go 4 for 6. 4/4 cav vs 4/4 musket – flawless retreat. 4/4 cav vs 4/4 musket – flawless retreat. 4/4 cav vs 4/4 musket – lose, -1hp. 4/4 cav vs 4/5 musket – lose, -4hp. Grrr! 4/4 cav vs 4/5 musket – win, -2hp. 5/5 cav vs 3/3 musket – win, -3hp. 5/5 cav vs 3/4 musket – win, -3hp. 4/4 cav vs 3/4 musket – retreat, -1hp. 4/5 cav vs 3/4 musket – flawless retreat. Retreat wounded cavs to heal.

    Battle for Halicarnassus: 5/5 cav vs 4/4 hoplite – win, -2hp. 5/5 cav vs 4/4 hoplite – win, -2hp. Capture city. Set to Worker. 1 slave. Garrison city for the 1st turn to quell resisters (4).

    IBT: Mayans and Iroquois sign peace.

    Turn 194 (790AD)

    Chiconautla: Courthouse=>Market
    Xochicalco: Market=>Jag for garrison duty
    Marathon riots. Make a scientist

    Battle for Athens (size 7): Cannons go 3 for 6. Reveal only 2 muskets left. Wait 1 round to drive attack home.
    5/5 knight vs 3/3 LB – flawless win. 6/6 AC vs 3/3 LB – flawless win. GL. Build 1st Army. Immediately load 2 cavs. That changes the game. :D

    Turn Science down to 70%, steam due in 4t @ +67gpt.
    Swap Tlalmanalco to a cav, rush for 188gp, swap back to a market due in 2t.
    Rush a settler in Coyotepec for 16gp.

    IBT – zzz

    Turn 195 (800AD)

    Tenochit: Cav=>University
    Tlacopan: Jag=>Cav (now at 8spt)
    Resistance ends at Mycene: Worker=>Worker. Continue to starve city. Make 3 scientists.
    Coyotepec: Settler=>Settler

    Battle for Athens (size 7): Cannons go 5 for 6 and reveal there are actually 3 muskets in the city. Load 3rd cav into army and move out. New 12/12 army vs 3/4 musket – win, -2hp, promote elite. 11/13 army vs 3/5 musket – flawless win. Reveals hoplite. 6/6 AC vs 3/3 hoplite – retreat, -1hp. 11/13 army vs 2/4 musket – win, -1hp. Reveal new 3/3 hoplite. 5/5 cav vs 3/3 hoplite – flawless win. 5/5 knight vs 2/3 hoplite – win, -2hp.

    Capture Athens with HG & Bachs. This is a must keep! HG will expire with Steam, but very nice for now! Load the city with units on the first turn to quell resistance (6). Set to worker. Delphi is the new capital.

    Build New Teo and capture dyes. Settler.
    Drop lux to 0%. We currently have all 8 luxuries but fur deal with Iroquois expires in 2 turns.
    Rush harbor at Tlapanaloya for 24gp.
    Rush cav at Tamuin for 32gp then swap to market due in 3t.
    Rush a musket at Chalco for 128gp then swap to courthouse due in 5t.

    IBT – Corinth flips (its empty)
    Cuello flips to the Mayans. ????

    Turn 196 (810AD)

    Xochicalco: Jag=>Cav (now at 8spt)
    Tlalmanalco: Market=>University
    Tlapanaloya: Harbor=>Jag

    WLTKD all over the place. The people give us a double tiered west wing.

    Corinth has a poor 3/3 hoplite guarding the city. 5/5 cav vs 3/3 hoplite – win, -1hp. We are left with only 2 resisters this time. Much better. Make 2 scientists and start the city on starvation. Start worker.

    IBT – French want to trade map. Nah.
    Greece Advances some LBs

    Turn 197 (820AD)

    Sparta: Worker=>Worker
    Ixtapaluca: Settler=>Settler (60% corrupt with WLTKD)

    5/6 AC vs 3/3 LB – win, -2hp.
    5/5 knight vs 3/3 LB – flawless win.
    5/5 cav vs 3/3 LB – flawless win.

    Advance cannons and army vs. Thermopylae.

    Rush a worker at Mycenae for 32gp.

    IBT – lose furs in Iroquois deal. Make a new deal – give them Magnetism & Ivory for Furs, 6gp & 14gpt.


    Turn 198 (830AD)

    We get steam. Start Electricity, due in 7t @ -5gpt. Science at 100%. HGs are obsolete. We’ve got 2 sources of coal, 1 of which is pretty safe. Neither are connected. Rush workers toward coal.

    Tzint riots. Give them a scientist.
    Mycenae: Worker=>Settler
    Tamuin riots the round before the market builds. Grr. Give them a scientist.
    Tepexpan riots. Scientist.
    Teruel: Worker=>Worker
    Itzapalapa: Worker=>Worker
    Ayotzinco: Worekr=>Worker
    Athens is down to 1 resister. Make 5 scientist and starve city.

    Battle for Thermpylae (size 7): Cannons go 5 for 7. Reveal 2 muskets, 1 hoplite. 13/13 army vs 3/5 musket – win, -1hp. 5/5 cav vs 3/4 hoplite – win, -3hp. 12/13 army vs 2/4 musket – win, -1hp. Take city. Move units in to quell resisters (6). Start Worker. 5/5 Cav vs 3/3 LB – win, -1hp.

    IBT – zzz

    Turn 199 (840AD)

    Tamuin: Market=>Library
    Marathon: Worker=>Worker
    Malinalco: Swap to Uni. Start forest chop.

    Advance army on Pharsalos.

    IBT – Thermoplyae flips. Dang! I was hoping for one more round. Takes 2 healing cavs with it. No cav is stationed outside the city. Dang, dang.

    Turn 200 (850 AD)

    Tlaxacala: Cav=>Cav
    Atzcapotzalco:Cav=>Cav
    Rhodes:Worker=>Worker
    Chalco: Courthouse=>Library
    Tlapanaloya: Jag=>Jag

    Resistance in Athens ends. Starving city.


    All units remain unmoved.
     

    Attached Files:

  10. CKS

    CKS Deity

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    Great job. With the cav army we are in good shape, and the rest of the north should be ours quickly. With the capital far away, flips will be greatly reduced, and once we have starved the northern cities down it should be safe to make peace.

    I'm in favor of removing the French and taking their iron.
     
  11. creamcheese

    creamcheese Spreading since 1990

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    Okay, got it. Will play tomorrow and get some iron and rails.

    I'll try to be in Paris faster than Hitler was.
     
  12. Raliuven

    Raliuven Emperor

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    Hopefully we'll there a bit longer than he was. :mischief:
     
  13. Elephantium

    Elephantium Elephants think that people are cute, like puppies

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    I love how much momentum we've gathered. I dare say we could own the continent before your next turnset, Raliuven! :D
     
  14. creamcheese

    creamcheese Spreading since 1990

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    Mid-set question;

    Should I eliminate Greece or keep them in? I really would like to to prevent flips. All they have left is Pergamon in the far south. Not likely they will be very useful to us. I could try gifting them up and see if they get anything nice. I'd hate for them to get nationalism and them be a pain to take out. Also we have lots of WW I'd love to get rid of.

    Also, should I delay a bit to build up for france? I am worried we have too few units. If egypt sneak attacked us now, we'd be in deep doo-doo. If I had gotten a second army I'd be much less worried, or if we had more artillery.

    We have 18 cav and 8 cannon, only 12 cav at the front. Assorted older units of dubious value are also available.

    EDIT;
    While I am asking, we can trade away steam for a fair bit of cash, although we don't really need it, trade or wait till someone gets an ind age tech?

    Golden age should be timed at about the end of my set I think, we'll have a fair number of universities and libraries up and running, and building the epic and ToE will go faster. I've got some jags lying around for the purpose. I hope to use cannos on a longbow and then kill it.
     
  15. Raliuven

    Raliuven Emperor

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    RE: Greece. I'd really like to keep them around for their free tech, but you're right - it will probably be nationalism this time around. What is almost worse is if they pull steam and we haven't traded it yet. Killing them solves a lot of problems and keeping them will help us pick up one modern age tech at the most. We'll be able to trade for everything the AI picks up in the IA. They're probably working on Free Artistry even as we speak. :crazyeye:

    I could go either way on this. Though I like the idea of using them for the free tech, my gut tells me that we would be better off with them dead.

    RE: France - did we manage to get iron for RR yet? I don't see any reason we can't pause for a few rounds to marshal our strength, but RR will solve so many problems I wouldn't want to wait too long.

    RE: Steam - In my personal games I usually hold this back, but that's not saying it is necessarily a good idea. Trading it away could get us the cash we need to drive home the final attacks on France and Egypt. I don't see us falling behind in the tech race anymore. Our GA will finalize that. I also agree with the GA plan. :goodjob:

    I think Elephantium may be right - by the time I get the game back our island will be a solid mass of green!
     
  16. creamcheese

    creamcheese Spreading since 1990

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    No iron yet, I'm only two turns in lol. Haven't declared yet, it will be a few turns at least. Not as many cav as I was expecting to have to work with. I think I could trade steam for iron maybe, if we are that desperate.

    The main thing is we are building universities while trying to keep our cav numbers high. Once we hit GA, we should have enough production, but we are lacking now. We may have waited a little long on the GA, I dunno.
     
  17. Raliuven

    Raliuven Emperor

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    What? Two whole turns and you don't have iron yet! :whipped:

    As if it's not enough that you've wiped out the rest of Greece already. :lol:
     
  18. Elephantium

    Elephantium Elephants think that people are cute, like puppies

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    It's nice to trade for the free tech from Sci civs, but it's not a must-have. What does the F8 culture chart show? Greek culture growth will be pretty much stalled now, so we might be okay if we're catching up quickly enough.

    If we're still under half their total culture score, OTOH, we're probably better off eliminating them.
     
  19. CKS

    CKS Deity

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    I have no preference on the keep/eliminate the Greeks question.

    We need to get iron quickly; rails dramatically decrease our vulnerability to attack by Egypt. A short pause before France is okay, but not a long one. If we are really worried, we can always ally Egypt, but I don't think we need to.
     
  20. creamcheese

    creamcheese Spreading since 1990

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    Okay, my completing the set has been delayed a bit (till the morning), but I think i'll just eliminate Greece and gear up for France as fast as I can.
     

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