Rallying Call: Eastern European/Turkish Battles Mod, during the Renaissance!

[Shqype]

I'm creating a mod for Beyond the Sword depicting the Eastern European struggles against the Ottoman Empire (and each other) from the ~late 14th to ~mid 17th centuries, a time period otherwise known as the Renaissance.

The purpose of this mod will be to re-enact the various battles and disputes between the Eastern Europeans (largely fighting for Christianity and/or their own national existance) and the Ottoman Empire, which is looking to expand. In addition to an all-new tech tree that spans this time period (with some elements of specialized or individualized techs), there will also be many unique units for the "main" factions each with their strengths and weaknesses. Global events will also be a key part to the scenario, and will improve historical accuracy by depicting certain events such as the two Battles of Kosova, the Siege of Belgrade, the Battles of Varna and Vaslui, the fall of Constantinople, and others.

This mod is currently in the planning stages, although I do have the foundations for some interesting concepts already coded (such as the beginning of a Janissary system only available to the Turks). I know I could use help because this project is so large, it would simply take too long for one person to do himself. I know I could use help with filling up the tech tree, for instance!

Currently, this is the list of factions I have planned. Tunch Khan has provided some support and ideas which I hope he will expand on and lead us in an accurate historical direction.

Factions (subject to change):
1) Kingdom of Naples (King Alfonso of Aragon)
2) Papal States (Pope Nicholas V, Pope Pius II)
3) Venetians (Venetian Senate)
4) Albania (Gjergj Kastrioti) [Dark Red]
5) House of Austria (Habsburgs)
6) Kingdom of Hungary (Janosh Hunyadi)
7) Kingdom of Poland (Wladislaus III)
8) Grand-Duchy of Lithuania (Vytautas)
9) Moldavia (Stefan cel Mare)
10) Principality of Wallachia (Mihai Viteazul)
11) Serbia (Djuradj Brankovich)
12) Bosnia (Stefan Tvrtko I)
13) Byzantine Empire (Constantine XI)
14) The Golden Horde (Edigu)
15) Khanate of Crimea (Haci I Giray)
16) Karaman Sultanate (Alâeddin Ali Bey) [Karaman Blue]
17) The Ottoman Empire (Murad II, Mehmet II) [White]

The following map gives the rough geographic scope of this mod:

Nothing is set in stone, although I do have a pretty good idea of where I want to go with this. For example, plans for individual victory conditions. However, I am open to new ideas and there is alot I don't know, but would like to learn. If you can offer assistance or advice, please do so! If I've done something wrong, let me know! Ideas and suggestions are welcome

Here is the current technology tree I have, that definitely needs to be polished:


As can be seen, the mid-late game technologies need work.
Relevant buildings for the time period need improvement. Any and all ideas are welcome.

 

[Archduke Otto]

Hi Shqype.

As all of your projects, this sounds fantastic. I know that you're Proficient in historical matters yourself, but should you need any historical / scenario information - especially on the Byzantine Empire, the Habsburgs and on territorial questions - I shall be glad to help.

And of course all else I can do.

See ya.

 

[Shqype]

Thanks alot

Initially I had the Crown of Bohemia, Duchies of Bavaria, and Austria as 3 separate factions, but Tunch Khan told me I could incorporate them all into HRE or Austria since they went into personal unions (more or less) and were ruled by the Hapsburgs. Is this a good move or not?

And, how about a leader (or two) for this faction? What should their role be during this time period? While I need help with the tech tree in general, do you know of any techs that this faction itself should have, even if its not available to others? And how about UUs?

 

[Archduke Otto]

The Lands of the Crown of Bohemia were in personal union with Austria from 1526 onwards. Before that, they were an entity of their own. The HRE was already quite an ephemeral thing in the period that you want to mod. It consisted of numerous principalities that were all too eager to fight one another. That is basically, why there was never a concerted countermeasure agains French or Ottoman expansion.
However, this friction could be represented by giving the HRE some religious troubles, just like in the 1380 Scenario (EE3 mod).

The key is not to make the HRE too powerful. If the Elector of Brandenburg and the Polish King were able to defeat the Ottomans in 1683, then the Ottomans would be no match for the entire HRE - and hence there would be no point in the scenario.
So basically, I'd recommend the following:

-Let there be one big Austri, comprising all the 'Hereditary Lands of the House of Austria', i.e. Austria proper, Bohemia and make them economically strong.
-Let the remainder of the HRE be one empire, it should be quite big - bigger than Austria, but economically weaker, so as to compensate a bit.
-Let them be on harsh terms with another, so as to represent the divisive nature of German affairs in that period.

-For an Austrian leader, well, there a host of possible choices. For example you could take one of the Habsburg emperors of the time. On the other hand, if you want to emphasize the 'anti-ottoman' character of the game, you could take Count Rudiger von Starhemberg, the defender of Vienna in 1683. Or maybe Generalissimus Albrecht Wallenstein?
-Now for the HRE - for sure, the Habsburgs were Emperors of the HRE for most of the period, but their rule was only nominal - how about taking Frederick, Elector of the Palatinate? He was a enemy of the Habsburgs and for some time at the beginning of the Thirty Years War 'Counter-King' of Bohemia.

See whether you can make sense of this - I'll be glad to help if this is not quite clear. The history of the HRE and its relation with its own emperor and that one's hereditary possesion is a fairly complicated thing - at uni it comes right after rocket-science.

I can't wait to see this scenario/mod coming up...

 

[Archduke Otto]

Oh, I'll go and think about their role and their UUs...

See ya.

 

[[CRO]Nemesis]

You should put Croatia here, although it had the same king as Hungary at that time, Croatia played specific role in that part of history.

If you don't put Croatia, you should at least put Dubrovnik (Raggusa) becouse they were allies with turks against Venice

 

[Shqype]

Archduke Otto, thanks alot for that information! It is very helpful.

As you can see from the map, the scope of this mod is Eastern Europe, not really central Europe, so certain factions are out. There are also many small factions here that may not make the cut, simply because there is an 18-civ limit.

[CRO] Nemesis, I originally had Croatia, but they were in personal union with Austria at this time, so it makes sense to combine them as one.

As you can see from the map Ragusa is very small and may not be as significant as some other factions. However I will keep Ragusa in mind and if there is not another faction which MUST be in in its place, then perhaps I can think about adding them. It would help me if arguments can be made in favor of adding certain factions because of their role and significance in this period.

 

[Gunner]

This looks pretty interesting Shqype. I'm going to be following this one's development pretty closely. I might be able to help you with choosing what type of units to use, since I'm working on a similar mod right now (or at least the same time period, but its focused mainly on Europe).

 

[Jouda]

I wish Bohemia stayed in but Archduke Otto said it right, we did not play a major role in those days...

 

[Shqype]

This looks pretty interesting Shqype. I'm going to be following this one's development pretty closely. I might be able to help you with choosing what type of units to use, since I'm working on a similar mod right now (or at least the same time period, but its focused mainly on Europe).

It would be good if we spoke and let each other in on some of our ideas. I plan on having unique units for all factions... think of the Desert War scenario where there are different types of infantry for each faction. I don't really believe in "making everything equal." The religions in this mod will all have different effects, for example. I feel that throughout history nothing was "the same," be they religions, units, people, technologies, etc. And, since I don't know a whole lot about some of these factions, I would like to hear your ideas for unique units and whatever other light you might be able to shed

Jouda - Bohemia will be a part of this scenario under the faction of Austria.

 

[Gunner]

I pretty much completely agree with having units be different for each country. My plan was to just give each country all unique units and then fill in graphics as they came. I'm just about finished I think with the research I want to do on the units, so I'm about to start actually coming up with how to implement them into the game. I'll definitely share my ideas with you if you want. Sometime in the next 3 days probably.

Oh, here is some information on Ragusa pertaining to whether or not it should be its own civ. I took this from the AGCEEP website.

Free Cities
by Mad King James

There is room for Ragusa, but Ragusa is not a "state", it is a free city. Free cities (IE cities under the protection of a larger state, but engaging in independent commerce) are everywhere. If we impliment Ragusa, then why not Danzig, Hamburg, Lubeck, Nuremburg and Bremen, all of which were more important?

I'll tell you why we don't, because they do crazy things like invade other states, build gigantic armies, secure royal marraiges, and basically don't act like free cities.

Basically all free cities had no army. None. They had a garrison of perhaps a thousand to man the fortress. Also they were all technically under a larger kingdom, and were a lot more of a vassal than a "vassal" is in the game. Ragusa for instance was part of the Kingdom of Bosnia. When the kingdom of Bosnia fell to the Ottoman Empire they became part of the Ottoman Empire, simply by virtue of the fact that Bosnia had fallen to them, and they quite graciously allowed them to maintain their free city status. Lubeck and Hamburg were free Imperial cities under the Emperor, even during the Thirty Years War this status never changed, they just became "Protestant Free Cities of the Holy Roman Empire".

Danzig, same deal, different king, this time Poland.

At no time did Ragusa for instance "offer" to be an Ottoman vassal, the "offer" was basically just admitting that their kingdom had fallen to the Ottoman Empire and that they were their new overlords, and the Ottomans nodding and not revoking their free city status (which they easily could have done had they not done this).

If Ragusa had not been a free city, and rather a city-state (like Venice) it would have been invaded by Venice the first time they turned their back. The only reason this did not occur is Venice didn't want to take on the entire Kingdom of Bosnia (who would take a dim view of Venice invading one of his cities, even a semi-autonamous one).

And here is a nice little utility that looks up the various military leaders and monarchs used in EU2 for its different versions. I don't know if this would be helpful to you or not, but I find it very interesting in general. I suggest that you set it to the AGCEEP 1.36 version since that is the one which is the most historically accurate.
http://www.europa2.ru/cgi-bin/leagu...n=108b&countries=VEN&sy=1419&fy=1821&lang=eng

 

[Shqype]

Yes, we'll definitely need to speak ... if not through AIM or Email, then at least through PM.

I just looked up Gjergj Kastrioti on that utility and it says his time of appearing is in 1442 ... that is historically innacurate since he didn't come back to Albania until November of 1443 .. and didn't unite the Albanians fully until March 2, 1444.

About Ragusa, I shall put them in with the Kingdom of Bosnia.

 

[Azkonus]

Hey Shqype,

Are you gonna cover the Karamans too. They were the Arch-rivals of Ottomans. Although much larger and stronger among the emirates at the start, they were not as lucky as Ottomans which were closer to Byzantine provinces with much poor defenses than the other beyliks.

I'd like to play as Karamans, they are much stronger than most of the first 16 anyways.

Lastly, If this is a rally againts Ottomans, Karamans deserve to be in.

 

[Shqype]

If you could give me information on the Karamans, such as leaders, their role during this time, city list, some events related to them, units for their UUs, etc. then I could include them.

Tunch Khan also suggested adding them. I didn't do so yet because I couldn't gather enough information on them.

The Ottomans will have a tough time with 16 out of 17 rival factions being against them! (15 if you count Serbia with Crimean Khanate).

 

[Gunner]

Here's what appears to be a pretty good website I found about the Ottomans. Might be useful for you. http://www.naqshbandi.org/ottomans/intro.htm

I think I'm going to be online at about 8:30 tonight. I came up with a basic idea of what units I'm planning on giving to the Europeans at least.

 

[Azkonus]

A more detailed info about Karamans will come, right now I just present 10 years of events between (1386-1396) so you can see how Karamans effected the Eastern Europe versus Ottomans fight.


1386: While Ottoman Sultan Murad was in one of his conquests of Rumelia, Alaeddin Ali Bey took advantage of the situation, and captured the Ottoman city Beysehir. After this incident Sultan Murad left Rumelia and came back to Anatolia with his forces won the battle; surrendered the city of Konya. Wasn't able to say no to his daughter’s request, who is also wife of Alaeddin, made him to agree the peace terms.

1389: Sultan Murad died in the Battle of Kosovo, Alaeddin broke the peace agreement and entered the Ottoman land and pillaged towns. New Sultan, Yildirim Bayezid Khan (Bayezid ‘the Thunderbolt&#8217, entered the western Anatolia in response and conquered Saruhan, Aydin and Mentese Beyliks (Emirates), won the battle and forced Alaeddin to accept peace agreement.

1396: Exploiting the situation once again that Yildirim was in Rumelia, Alaeddin raided Ankara. Annoyed with this incident Yildirim build up a big army and start his conquest of Karamans.

So this goes until 1487. The moral of the story is that Ottomans were not fighting only on western front; eastern front was also (maybe even more) problematic.

 

[Shqype]

Thanks for the information ... poor Turks! Everyone wants to kill them

 

[Iuvavus]

This idea for a scenario looks good!

If you want, I can make a map. Just tell me how large you want it and the date, when it shall be finished.

Happy Easter (for those, who celebrate it)

 

[Shqype]

Thanks, Happy Easter to you as well!

You and I can speak about the map ... I was going to create one hr_oskar's template, but if you could help out (such as adding rivers, lakes, and other accurate terrain to Austria, Hungary, and surrounding areas), it would be good

 

[Azkonus]

Thanks for the information ... poor Turks! Everyone wants to kill them

But Karamans are Turkish too. In fact me and other Turks like them as much as Ottomans since they were the first Beylik to react against Persian and Arabic usage in daily life. Being also one of the powerful figures of Turkish Literature history Karamanoglu Mehmet bey published a ferman which states that

From this day on, no one in palaces, in courts, in houses or in ramble shall use a language other than Turkish.

Karamanoglu Mehmet Bey holding his ferman



To people who wants to understand the map they are going to play,

Tekke in the region of Antalya is actually (Tekeogullari Beyligi)
Karaman on the east of this beylik is (Karamanogullari Beyligi)
Ramazan is (Ramazanogullari Beyligi)
Dulkadir is (Dulkadirogullari Beyligi)

[These are all Turkish Beyliks founded after the collapse of Seljuk Empire, a total of 29,

Osman's state (Osmanli Beyligi) become Osmanli Imparatorlugu (Ottoman Empire) with time. The main difference from other Turks, Osman attacked to Byzantines instead of other Turks as the others were doing at the time.

One more thing to clear for the confused, The Golden Horde founded as Mongolian-Turkish Empire, and later became fully Turkish.

Etimology: Golden Horde is a one-to-one translation from Altin Ordu in Turkish.
Golden=Altin
Ordu=Horde,army.

Originally AltinOrda, Orda = Tent (in Mongolian), GoldenTent because Khan's headquarter tent's top is covered with Gold.

This term then written as AltinOrdu with time (Orda becomes Ordu).

Outsiders translated it from the Turkish usage.



To sum up, Ottomans fought with other Turks too, the good thing is that they learned something from every fight and quickly applied them to battlefield. With mastered military techniques and genius Sultans they could stand for long time.

Therefore if you name it against Ottomans you can ally with Karamans and attack from the east. If you don't cities at eastern border of Ottomans will have no threat and it will give unfair advantage to them (or us, or me).

Go Ottomans! (We will conquer them all )