[BTS] Ramses Immortal Fractal: Bad Lands

[Gwaja]

Okay... so enough with Deity. I am rusty and I needed a more relaxing game. So I rolled another game, and... as the title suggests... this wasn't my plan!

Settings:
Fractal
One Extra AI on Standard Size Map
No Huts/Events/Tech Brokering (Yes, I hate Tech Brokering)
Choose Religion (Boring to see Buddhism, Hinduism, and Judaism being always the dominant ones)
Leader is Ramses

Starting Position:

Spoiler :

Played 82 turns to 825 BC:

Spoiler :

Initial goal was actually to try to utilize settled Great Priests and make an awesome city combined with wonders that gives bonuses to settled priests and also the obelisk that lets us turn 2 priests early.

Exploring the land, it became obvious that we are stuck on our own little subcontinent with suboptimal land tiles. Oh and other than that initial crab that is out of reach in the capital and the triple fish to the east island, there seem to be no other seafood along the coast on this subcontinent! Quite depressing really, as I am sure AI will have much better land than mine. I thought I was screwed with complete isolation, but Vicky showed up from the eastern shore, and Lincoln showed up from the western shores, so I had a sigh of relief.

I saw this island to the east of the capital with fish, and I'd say that is like the only place that looks good. Actually this site looked too good. I gambled that maybe there might be small chain of islands I could settle instead of this boring land on my subcontinent.

Being industrious and all, and with the initial goal in mind, I went for the Stonehenge, got it in 2280 BC, then went for Sailing and the Great Lighthouse (completed in 1240 BC) in the hopes of seaward expansion. However, the only place that I could realistically settle overseas is that small island off the eastern coast of the capital with 3 fish that all fit in the BFC. Vicky managed to settle the empty lands that I thought I may want to try to settle. Not a surprise seeing as she is Imperialistic and all.

Since my land sucked and the hopes of peaceful seaward expansion kinda down the drain, I shot for the Pyramids. At this turnset, I got Math in 900 BC with pre-chopped forests with roads all along the capital, in anticipation to squeeze as many hammers as possible, along with a 2-pop whip of a Library.

I popped a Great Priest in 875 BC and as planned, settled him in the capital.

Other than the Pyramids that I am about to complete next turn, the only other wonder built is the Great Wall. I am sure the Oracle will be finished by someone fairly soon.

Yeah... this land kinda sucks.

That triple fish island is the only good thing that came out of seaward exploration. I was... maybe hoping for other chain of islands or larger breathing space in Vicky's continent, but it doesn't seem that would be the case. Still, I think I could still make good use of the Great Lighthouse.... hopefully?

Yeah... this capital has the early wonders, about to get its 3rd, but not that great of a capital.

Vicky has Alpha, but doesn't have Math yet. Perhaps I could trade for Alpha with a little bit of beakers spent into it, and see what Lincoln has to offer. I will also have to explore on the seas to the west to find Lincoln and see if there are any barbarian cities on the coast that may be blocking trade routes.

So yeah... give this map a try. It should nice and relaxing, with some barbarians mixed in. ^_^

 

[sampsa]

thoughts

Spoiler :

I don't value wonders very high and I think your position is rather grim, due to having only 3 tiny cities at this date. Map is great for GLH, but I think Mids is a mistake. Too expensive, delays settlers and map doesn't have enough for it to shine. I also think Stonehenge is bad as always and the settled prophet can be more of a strain, because it delays stronger s.

 

[Fippy]

Playing for fun (with wonders) isn't the worst decision
Triple fish will be great with Pyras + Caste + Spi (CoL should be very high on your research list now).

Imo this land is okay. Sheep + Deer + some green river also makes a very good Rep scientists city.
Crab filler is close and needs no border pop.
Thebes can get 2 green farms (with silk too).

First i would prolly try to get pigs + clam on Vicky's continent.
Galley already there, so a quick settler + war chariot.
Trade some resis with her for diplo. Can also gift silver for quiet some time after switching into Rep.

 

[sampsa]

My non-fun interpretation to T82

Spoiler :

Got GLH, but been rather slow with expansion. 2 more settlers nearly done though. Was massively unlucky with barbs, losing two early fights at +96%, which partly explains the weak scouting and fog busting. Stupidly started with a library in Alexandria, caste is in soon so granary+lighthouse was probably better by a lot. Trying to get a GS for philo bulb, but I don't think a GM is a disaster anyway. To me these beat a settled prophet by a thousand miles.

 

[soundjata]

Man Sampsa does love his cottages don't he?

Spoiler :

why you no calendar

 

[BornInCantaloup]

@Gwaja :
I think you tricked yourself

Spoiler :

Into not expanding, going into the map with a set plan. Like, because we're IND, we have to build wonders. I think with even a single extra early city, you'd have the means to expand, here. Example : you could have claimed the stone to build the Pyramids.
It's alright to have your capital tied building wonders but not if it's your only productive city. If we look back, you really stayed on 2 cities for the longest time.

So, I played some turns to around T65.

Spoiler :

I did spot the NE Fish pretty early (Second Warrior) but I wouldn't say the map screamed to me : "GLH ! "
This is my T50 :

Spoiler :

Tech path : AH, Mining, Bronze, Fishing, Pottery, Sailing.
4 warriors are done by the time Thebes grows to size 3. 11 turns to Bronze Working, 5 turns to silver mine. Memphis could be settled 1S of the sheep (claiming horse).
I think the inland spot is stronger (doesn't scream GLH) because river.
I don't want to use my single worker to do all the mining and the roading and the pasturing while I'm so close to Bronze Working, so I start on a second worker before settler.
With 2 workers, Thebes can go settler -> settler. 1 improves Memphis, the other sets up for city 3 (no chop, actually, just roading).
The NE Fish says : "Island ! ". So, I insert Fishing before Pottery. Also we have the crab.
I think Pottery is the natural tech target after Bronze, here. Thebes has a happy cap at 6 and it currently does +3F/t. This is really poor. Setting up the early Granary is a game changer (1 chop). Memphis could also use an early Granary.
Heliopolis, I settle a little further away for a few reasons : maintenance : I don't want to share plains tiles on my island, so I'll walk the extra tiles to claim new tiles. I think it is also the stronger long-term spot, claiming oasis, forests and a few mines.
We know about Islands, T48, Washington greets us and now T50 we meet Victoria Heliopolis will go Workboat, Workboat, Galley, Galley.
At this point, yes, GLH
Memphis has just whipped the 3rd worker. It will stay around to chop the 4th. GLH means Memphis does not get to have its early Granary.
Worker 1 has finally connected the horses, so we're getting a unit. It is now chopping, preparing for a 4 turns Lighthouse. With Granary and Lighthouse, Thebes will finally be able to grow (which is something desirable, GLH or not).

This was a little dense for the first 50 turns, sorry about that. Didn't do saves.
Follow-up at t56 :

Spoiler :

Worker by Memphis is chopping into our 4th worker, the overflow will allow to whip the Granary.
Worker by Thebes has pre-chopped 1E of the pigs and is now mining the forested hill.
Worker by Heliopolis is mining the plains hills.
Yes, this is all about Workers, now. We're closing in on Masonry and have just the time to insert a 2nd Chariot in our queue.

Spoiler :

Masonry in (actually last turn), Chariot out (this turn). Time to gather the workforce.

Spoiler :

GLH in the queue T59, complete T64 eot. It feels good to be IND.
Now, Heliopolis has contributed the 2 scouting boats and is done with the 1st galley. Now starting on another. Then it will be settlers at size 4. Just hammering, no infrastructure, there.
Memphis is binding its time (need moar food !), waiting for some workers to assist (chop farm whip cottage settlers).
Some health issue in Thebes. Nothing that can prevent us from building settlers.
Now we're set up to expand.
It is all about settlers, now.

With islands in the West and in the East, our prospects for settlements are pretty good.
Also, we have eyed Stone on our Island and might try to snipe the Pyramids.

Turn 73, I don't know what I'm doing

Spoiler :

I have just researched Mysticism, as I'm going to need a couple of Monuments.
I decided to ignore the stone for now, to settle cities that are easier to develop (1st ring pigs + forests).
Now I don't know what to research I should bank some gold anyway
I might follow Soundjata's suggestion of going Maths -> Calendar. The Hanging Gardens could be a real build, here. Maybe I should just settle a junker on the stone. I've Eyed Marble, too, if I were to give a shot at the Mausoleum. Monarchy, CoL, Aesthetics are all on the line. I need more Chariots, too, but this is easier to insert.
I won't play further today.

Anyways, even if this isn't a T82 stopping point (I did want to match you), I believe the following picture illustrates adequately :
a) 3rd city ;
b) Granary in Thebes.

Spoiler :

Production, production, production. There is a lot to do. This is all about production, now.
Eastern Island has been settled this turn (with a worker unloaded to chop the Monument).
2 settlers are in transit with workers on standby.
Heliopolis has delayed its 2nd galley in order to speed up Pigs city.
Thebes is growing to cap and will work mines again next turn or at size 7.
Victoria has Alphabet.

Save is attached, if you wanna have a peek.

 

[sampsa]

Man Sampsa does love his cottages don't he?

Yes, cottages are great "default tiles", because they are -neutral and they improve to good tiles over time. Maybe it's time for you to let go of something someone said 10 years ago?

why you no calendar

Crap tech on a crap path. Even on immortal you can usually just trade for it later, unless you want MoM.

 

[Gwaja]

@sampsa and @BornInCantaloup

Nice plays as always. ^_^ Very different approach than mine. And with careful and detailed planning which, due to my wicked personality, I am lacking almost all the time. ^_^
I am approaching it like the old Roleplaying series that used to be hosted by @madscientist.
Settled priests are really underappreciated. I understand the talks about the most optimal ways, the ones that are claimed to be tried and tested and even "proven." For me, this usually results in same-ish type of play no matter what leader/civ I play as.

Spoiler :

Not like this land is screaming for quick early expansion. And no neighbors for contest of land. Stonehenge means semi-creative and easy turning of citizens into priests. Right... the first couple of specialists that I ran in ANY city were all priests. Angkor Wat means 5 priests in a city. ^_^ And I settled all of them. Pyramids a waste? Not for me. Served me too well, though not as great as the Great Lighthouse. Probably not the most optimal way, but still created a very winnable game. Thinking about not ever waging war, using only the settled lands, and going all the way to space vs AI and see how this somehow subpar subcontinent of ours can sustain us to the Modern Age.

Quick note on stone: Too many barbarians in my game. I couldn't quite settle there reliably... this game was strange in that the whole landmass, even the ones not occupied by me, seemed to have had some serious barbarian issues. I thought I didn't turn on raging barbarians.. what gives!?! Oh well... I would never even entertain the idea of building the Pyramids without stone unless Industrious. Silly gamble maybe, but did pay off. Looked at land and screamed "this land is one giant landfill full of garbage and trash!"

This is just too much fun.

Playing as super pacifist means lots of quick turns, which, for me, leads to sloppy play. I could learn a lot from all of you that play this game with so much detail and lots of careful planning.

 

[Gwaja]

Playing for fun (with wonders) isn't the worst decision
Triple fish will be great with Pyras + Caste + Spi (CoL should be very high on your research list now).

Imo this land is okay. Sheep + Deer + some green river also makes a very good Rep scientists city.
Crab filler is close and needs no border pop.
Thebes can get 2 green farms (with silk too).

First i would prolly try to get pigs + clam on Vicky's continent.
Galley already there, so a quick settler + war chariot.
Trade some resis with her for diplo. Can also gift silver for quiet some time after switching into Rep.

Exactly my thoughts. Evil minds think alike. ^_^ I did use the sheep+deer site as secondary GP farm city. Turned out okay.
Unfortunately, Vicky was quick to fill her island, and it wasn't even that big and she is the most isolated AI in the game.

 

[Henrik75]

Turn 91 / 600BC
Recording my playthrough to post on YT too.

Spoiler :

Pyramids without stone in addition to doing GLH is not very practical unless you want to cripple your expansion
We can make use of the rivers to get a few farms and and cottages up in the inland cities after civil service. Grassland river tiles is still ok for a city without food resources.
Tried to settle my early cities along coast to benefit from GLH. Probably not going to bother settling the deer unless a forest grows on it.

I went early CoL going to use caste system to generate some GPP and aim to lib astronomy. Thinking about Monarchy -> Math -> CS -> metal casting -> Calendar -> Optics -> Education -> Lib
Hoping Vicky's religion will spread and I can bulb philosophy and use pacifism to pump dudes.

 

[Henrik75]

@Gwaja

My thoughts on what you posted

Spoiler :

The land is mediocre but not terrible. It's workable, and I will try my best to show how.
You built way too many mines, and aren't working even half of them. I don't even bother with plains mines as you can see because its still just faster to whip granary/lighthouses than use the mines, cottages / farms for Elephantine were a much higher priority for me with worker turns. The capital is very low food so you will never be able to work plains mines as well as a plains silver and grassland mines. I even farmed a tile to compensate a bit.
Stonehenge not needed, I build a settler super early instead and got Memphis rolling which then snowballed to produce settlers/workers itself to continue development while i built great lighthouse. Only takes a couple turns to whip or chop monuments where needed rather than cripple early expansion or lose failgold on a bad wonder that will polute your GPP.
3 cities by 800BC Yeah it shows you really crippled your expansion for all these wonders; you won't even be able to use the pyramids because you will need all the hammers/whips you can get to pump out settlers to catch up in expansion now. For the record I always try to aim for 5 cities by 1000BC, 4 at minimum.
Anyway, just my constructive feedback, good job getting the wonders I don't think it will lose you the game, and it will help catch you up later, but I think settling more cities is more optimal so you can develop the land (which really needs developing to be decent).

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Now you're underselling yourself, Gwaja There's no shame in playing fast a la TMIT. If anything, it makes you recognize strategic stakes better.

Spoiler :

You may have missed the opportunity for an extra settler pre-2000 BC, which would have helped a ton.
But your point about wonders is absolutely valid.
Both the GLH and the Pyramids are excellent builds, here, with brown land and no neighbours. What else are you gonna do ? Cottages would take forever to develop and there aren't that many tiles. Powering specs from food specials definitely is the superior, here.

Stonehenge is a little more controversial. I'll build it on occasion. I share your view about Great Priests, too, and am in no way a puritan.
With Egypt, I don't know... I'd even be tempted to set up a Theology bulb and go full on Apostolic Palace.
The trouble is this is all very hammer hungry and you still need to fit in your settlers.
In any case, it is very much worth it to monitor wonders and religion dates in a game like this. Iirc the Stonehenge went 1100 or 1300 BC in Sampsa's game. This is telling stuff. Like, this is telling that a late attempt at the Pyramids is not as much of a gambit as one could think from T0.
If the game says it's ok to "backfill" with wonders, then, by any means, please do !

I've noticed the same thing you did about Barbarians. This is very strange to me, especially so since you put an extra AI in the map (something that would typically speed up wonder dates). War Chariots are great, here, with horses in BFC, no temptation to rush a neighbour (I've thought about a galley rush but, really, no...) and some barb control to be done. Also, unlocking the Heroic Epic without going to war is kinda great.
In my game, I've spawned a Barb city in the tundra and scouted 2 barb cities on the Western landmass. I'll try to ferry units over to capture them (they're also cutting off my trade routes, for the extra incentive. Good job on getting your two cities on that side of the map

 

[Gwaja]

@Henrik75

Spoiler :

Sacrificing expansion meant less things for workers to do, other than mad chopping out the Pyramids, which translated into those mines you mention. My humble opinion is that Pyramids wasn't a bad play, but my execution of it could have been a lot better. Stonehenge though, that was probably an overkill. I almost never build that in my games; maybe for fail gold on some occasion. I actually had my mind dead set on building it from the very start as a matter of fact, as an experiment of sort. I wasn't concerned about GPP pollution, because I wasn't aiming for Great Scientists specifically. I was wanting for Great Priests anyway, and having the free obelisks means I could easily produce them and reliably settle them. That was the sort of "rule" I placed for the game. Not the most optimal way maybe, but I wasn't aiming for that anyway.

I am looking forward to your YT upload. You play at just the right speed and explain things very thoroughly in an easy-to-understand manner. I really appreciate your accepting my request to host this map on your YT channel, as well as your very constructive feedback.

@BornInCantaloup

@TheMeInTeam aka Phil used to be very active, as you know, and I also enjoyed his YT content. He even had a posting explaining how to play this game faster. ^_^ Yeah, I also like to play at a brisk pace, sometimes to my detriment though.

Spoiler :

I am not too set on needing to have certain number of cities by a certain date, but you are correct that I most likely may have missed out on an extra settler. I still believe that Pyramids wasn't a bad play, but I also agree with your assessment that combining that with Stonehenge was probably an overkill. Like I mentioned to @Henrik75, I almost never build that, but this time I was trying something funky with it.

I am wanting to try that Theology bulb, which I did not execute in this attempt. ^_^

Stonehenge not getting built by 2000 BC on Immortal is pretty rare, isn't it? In my game, The Great Wall got built around 2200 BC, I think.

Yeah... I added an extra AI, so naturally you would think faster wonder dates and LESS barbarians. In my game, the barbarians were roaming around everywhere in my subcontinent, as well as the western landmass where the AI civs were also seeming to struggle with them. Absolutely true about that Heroic Epic unlock possibilities without war thanks to barbarians. I actually have a goal set to make a Woodsman 3 warrior that I could, eventually make into a Super Medic.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

So, exploration, uh ? A player like Kossin used to be extremely insistant on that.
This is T82 :

Spoiler :

Can I please circumnavigate, oh pretty please ?
Also meeting more AIs is on my to-do list.

Spoiler :

Can I please capture a barb city ? Now, that would be lovely.
Maybe I should ferry some more units, here. 2 chariots is a start but maybe not enough.
The heck, Rome ? This is no way to ruin my marble.

Spoiler :

Stone ! We have eyed Stone ! And not a junker city !
Only problem is Victoria has been plotting on me since forever.
Got a lucky religious spread in Elephantine the turn the Monument was complete, so 5 turns border pop and scouting workboat went back in a hurry.

Spoiler :

I don't have a war Chariot on the mainland anymore but Heliopolis should be able to help.
Still only 4 workers. 3 settlers on the way, mostly to be ferried away.
I have not really been preparing for wonders, here Still, Mathematics chops will be nice, however misguided it was to research that tech.

I kinda forgot about no tech brokering. It makes it very easy to track the AIs trade, that's convenient.
Victoria Oracled Aesthetics a little before 1000 BC and traded Alpha for Iron with Augustus.

Some other stuff without comments :

Spoiler :

 

[Gwaja]

@BornInCantaloup

Spoiler :

Ouch on that marble...

I also had my eyes initially set on Vicky's land, but by the time I thought I was ready to settle towards there, it was too late. No worries though, her land isn't all that great anyway.

Nice expansion at work there! And yep... tech brokering off should make the game easier in many ways.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Yes,

Spoiler :

that stone is likely too far (and she's plotting on me). I should claim it at home with one of my extra settlers. I kinda really want the HG's population boost.

On expansion, well... Once you go for the GLH, you want cities...
I've got 2 inland, so it's not perfect GLH-wise but they're a way to save on settlers. Sparse city spots like this help a lot to control against barbs and claim most tiles without spending the extra 100 each time we want to claim another tile.
The peak from the western inland city is particularly useful for fogbusting.
Really, overlap is what I want to avoid, here, so I can send my settler further away. Example : I'm in really 0 hurry to backfill the crab spot.

 

[Henrik75]

Agreed Pyramids is not bad choice, and maybe more practical with better execution. Could consider settling a city on the stone to help - pay for itself with GLH, and immediately connect the stone with 0 worker turns for capital to construct it quickly.

Spoiler :

I'm playing it as an isolated no tech trade kinda,
I went for early currency & civil service bee line. Managed to get 25AD Civil service with nearly no useful trades from these idiots
Next plan is to lib astronomy, we hard tech our way to optics at 475AD now I'm working towards a 1000AD orso lib which should be safe on immortal.
Will take advantage of the stone to build oxford university too. Capital is not that great for research but with academy, GLH and harbor etc it should still be quite decent.
About to do some lighthouse + lake magic in the tundra here to use the deer. You can see how Elephantine and Heliopos have developed really well now, I even got markets in them!

Turn 146 / 720AD

Yep dont think anyone is going to get lib.
I'm aware you probably don't need astronomy to get good trade routes, but it keeps the option of declaring on augustus open without losing all my trades, and if i'm going to overseas assault, I HATE doing it with galleys, so galleons + frigates would be really nice. Also, Observatories don't hurt to snowball even more research. Also, it's just simply a strong pick because it's so expensive.

I'd like to capitulate Augustus then just go for a space win, would be fun and different and see how far we can go with this mediocre land.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

^ Nice progress, Henrik.
I'm just slowplaying and had this nice sight on T85 :

Spoiler :

Charlemange, I will trade you Pottery for Open Borders and Sailing for Iron Working, deal ?
Oh, you want Writing on top of it ?
Humph ! Okay, well, I can spare that too if you insist. You're a tough bargain.
Pleased to meet you, I guess...

Spoiler :

So, all AIs met Mission accomplished
The Pyramids were built in Russia this turn. I suppose I made my choice when I didn't settle the stone with city 4.

 

[Henrik75]

How to make rubbish cities pay for themselves

Spoiler :

17 beakers and 6gpt! at the cost of 3gpt. Profit! courthouse was chopped then slowbuilt in 10 turns, seemed worth it.

 

[Gwaja]

@Henrik75

Spoiler :

You called it. Building a quarry to set up the stone/marble just takes too long and many times, it is wise to look to build a city on top of those resources to save major number of turns. In this case, with Great Lighthouse and Code of Laws, even that hopelessly dismal looking city with no food and dry land can pay for itself and more by providing that critical resource bonus. Stone stays relevant for longer than marble, and Oxford is obviously a no brainer by that point.

Also a good call on Astro. Too bad it obsoletes a lot of old wonders, but getting it for free as a lib tech is a smart choice, as you mentioned, due to the fact that it simply is the most realistic tech that is most expensive in beaker cost. If you are looking to attack Augustus, then even more so to guarantee overseas trade route. In my game, Lincoln managed to capture a barbarian city to Augustus' southwest and I managed to get a foothold in the southeast, so the trade routes will still remain open as long as barbarians are out of the way. Still, limited carrying capacity of galleys make overseas invasion so annoying.

On AI being a bunch of cavemen: Same story with me as well. No tech brokering means they can't just be trading techs with each other like crazy as they happen in normal games. I am not sure if this type of map script or other factors also are affecting the AI's slow tech pace.

I like how you call the AI a bunch of "idiots." I think Lain used to say the same also. Gives me giggles every time I hear you say it. ^_^

@BornInCantaloup

Spoiler :

Nice job managing to get in contact with all AI on this map. Very doable with some persistent sea exploration, and earlier the better. I managed to circumnavigate the globe just by using a couple of fishing boats.

Nice trade with Burger King too. And the AI don't look all that scary with the tech pace in your game also. No tech brokering really does come into play, I think.

On overlap: I have a tendency to prefer settling my cities closer together with overlap. I like sharing tiles to grow cottages to maturity, as well as sharing food obviously. But this map is a bad candidate for that. I also didn't settle that crab site until much later.