[BTS] Random (Sitting) Bull game

[Pangaea]

I was bored out of my skull today, the other games I've been playing are too far advanced, and I like the early game best. Therefore I started a new one, completely random (but on Fractal-Immortal). Sitting Bull popped up, with what doesn't look like a stellar start, but it basically is.



There are 'suspicious' tiles both to the south and east, so I settled in place, after moving the warrior NW. Starting with marble is always nice, and some more stuff popped up too...

I've only played 60 turns, but a few notes about the map, in case you are unsure whether to play or not.

Spoiler :

I've only met one AI, which has me confused. At one point I saw that AI with 3 eps on me, so he must have met somebody else. But I haven't, and by now I've uncovered a fair bit of the map. Dog Soldiers against warriors is funny! He's killed 3 guys without scratching his loincloth.

There are some nice city locations around the capital, with more floodplains than in the initial screenshot. I happened to go Mining-BW, which timed quite nicely with worker action.

I'm now trying to figure out how to play this, whether to go after (possibly?) the only AI on the continent, or to peacefully expand.

Without revealing too much outside spoilers, I think it should be okay to say the land is fairly good.

 

[Lain]

Got too many games going on at the moment. But if I had to win a game with my life on the line, Sitting Bull would be among my Top 3 choices (Pacal + Gandhi being the other two). Because of convenient barb defense.

Regarding strategy @Pangaea

Spoiler :

If there is room for expansion (haven't checked world builder) I think that's always preferable. Especially if the alternative would be wacking the only trading partner in the game. Think there is more to learn from peaceful empire management aswell.

Also, sending out 1-2 work boats for exploration on Fractal maps is usually worth it. If you haven't done it already.

 

[Pedro78]

But if I had to win a game with my life on the line, Sitting Bull would be among my Top 3 choices (Pacal + Gandhi being the other two)

Wow, what about Huayna or even Mansa?

@Pangaea

I know you can win on deity quite consistently, so don't you find it a little boring to play on Immortal? I mean, you can always have fun, but very often there isn't much of a challenge, especially with good starts. My question is : how do you stay motivated when you know (99.9%) you're gonna win the game from T0?

In this case good cottage cap + marble + philosophical kinda speaks for itself : standard lib route unless you're (semi) isolated or incredibly boxed in

 

[Fish Man]

I will give this a shot. This is my first time on immortal, so it helps to have such an OP map soften up the difficulty change.

 

[Fish Man]

Wow, what about Huayna or even Mansa?

@Pangaea

I know you can win on deity quite consistently, so don't you find it a little boring to play on Immortal? I mean, you can always have fun, but very often there isn't much of a challenge, especially with good starts. My question is : how do you stay motivated when you know (99.9%) you're gonna win the game from T0?

In this case good cottage cap + marble + philosophical kinda speaks for itself : standard lib route unless you're (semi) isolated or incredibly boxed in

What is the standard lib route, anyways? What role does bulbing play in that?

Also, where would you settle the cap? Going SW to the plains hill gives you

Spoiler :

gold and sheep

and 1 extra production, but maybe that isn't enough food?

Finally, not OP, but to answer how I stay motivated when I know I'll win: aiming for fast wins is what I do. On monarch or below I don't consider a win an actual win, if it's 300 turns or later.

 

[Anysense]

Deity often feels more like a hard work than a game. Usually when I don't feel like working hard I just play something else which I don't take too seriously.

 

[Pedro78]

@Undefeatable

By "standard" lib route I mean the AZ-shaped kind of game : Aesthetics - Litt / Currency - Music - CS - Paper - Nat - Lib MT. On your way you build the GLib and bulb Philo + 2xEdu + Lib. Launch a GA with the artist from Music and get out several (2 or 3) GMs and upgrade a bunch of HAs to cuirs. Then roll over your continent / the whole map depending on its shape. As you're philosophical it should all be possible. Of course this path may vary depending on the map's development, but you see the basic idea...

About settling :

Spoiler :

With the info I can get on T0 by moving Warrior, I'd never go to the PH as it makes me move away from the irrigated Wheat and it looks like there's a lot of ground tiles to the south. Plus the Sheep requires teching AH and isn't much of a food resource. If the sheeps were river corn I would have seriously considered moving on the PH though.

If you're not convinced yet, there is probably a strategic resource 2E of starting position, plus moving to the PH makes you miss the Oasis, which is a very good tile to work early on.

aiming for fast wins is what I do

On a random fractal map, there is no strict benchmark for a "fast" win. With a really crappy start, T300 can actually be a pretty decent win date. With much faster start you can win conquest in 1200AD... So it doesen't really help motivate me ^^

@Anysense : Hard work is what keeps me motivated

 

[Pangaea]

Deity often feels more like a hard work than a game. Usually when I don't feel like working hard I just play something else which I don't take too seriously.

This would be my answer as well. I can win, but certainly don't feel comfortable on Deity. So much can go wrong, and one small mistake can mean 'game over'. Previously I've effectively lost games (although I didn't play them out) to attacking the 'wrong' AI first, failing to to grasp who can get bribed in, failing to stop a war that meant one AI got out of control, and of course the "usual" stuff where you get DOWed so early there is zero chance to defend yourself (or you get boxed in with 2 cities).

Sure, I can win Immortal fairly straightforward, but to me the challenge and fun isn't in winning the game, but in trying different strategies. Actually, the most fun is the first 50 or so turns, where I explore and learn more about the map, and start plotting out cities. After that many games can become a bit samey-samey, and Deity games are usually a horrible slog throughout for 200-300 turns. Immortal is much more open, and you can play in different ways and still compete,whereas Deity forces you into a corridor of choices that you have to make to have a chance. Quite simply, I have more fun at Immortal than Deity.

As for this game, I played to 1AD yesterday, and stayed up waaaaaaaaaaay longer than I should have...

Spoiler :

The only neighbour was Ragnar. To my surprise there is a great deal of land to the west that is 'free', so it's certainly possible to expand peacefully here. However, I chose to go to war instead, with Catas+Elephants. Probably started the buildup too soon or something, took a while between access to Catas and Elephants, so I had a big army of catas upon DOW. Easily took a few cities, razed another, and have taken his capital. During the war Ragnar expanded onto an island, so I probably need stage 2 war before taking him out entirely.

An exploring warrior happened to be lucky and encounter a Mehmed workboat, so I know there is contact with another civ. Unfortunately Ragnar new offland city now blocks trade routes to Mehmed (rest of the world? don't know yet). But I managed to limp to currency, so the economy is saved at least.

Ragnar softened up a barb city for me, and I was lucky to take it with a lone chariot at 45% odds (had to try). There is one more barb city, that looks darn juicy. The barbs have now improved sheep+corn and it's size 6. Lots of good land to the west unsettled as well, as I built up the army with just 4 cities, with heaps and heaps of chops.

However, I'll have a task on my hands in rescuing the economy. Should probably stop building those units in Cahokia and Chaco, but they're already on decay, and I hate to lose hammers that way

None of the punks have Alpha yet, which leads me to suspect Mehmed hasn't met a great deal of guys either, possibly only us three alone. I have queued up Aesthetics for now, with Sailing just online (which did no good since Ragnar still blocks with a city settled a few turns ago). Some failgold would do me a world of good.

An overview map for those who have played, or aren't bothered with spoilers.

Spoiler :

Somebody have wonderwhored something fierce!

 

[Pedro78]

I get your point, we're just not having fun the same way ^^

The AI's city placement will always leave me speechless... how the hell could he miss that gold?

 

[Pangaea]

Had me speechless too, especially when he managed to miss it AGAIN

About fun / "feels like (boring) work", I should also add that I am a notoriously slow player. Can easily spend 50 hours on a map others spend 5 on. So these long war-heavy Deity maps take a lot of time for me, and it's kinda fun to finish more than one map a month

 

[Pedro78]

I have the opposite problem, I tend to play way too fast. Then I make mistakes, get upset and drop the map. I remember a Gandhi iso game where you've spent 100+ hours, what did you do during all that time? Do you spend like 5 minutes considering every worker move etc. ?

 

[Pangaea]

Don't recall that exact map, but I do take my sweet time. Not necessarily with worker micro, though I make sure to make good choices there too. I also spend much time just looking through stats and graphs and such, and micro all cities every turn. I'm a bit of a sucker for stuff like that, and back in the Football Manager days could spend hours just looking through teams and players, histories, stuff they had won, and so on. Tend to delve deeply into a game when first playing. Sometimes I forget the game is on as well when making food or going out or such, so some hours are not actually spent playing (most are though).

More on worker micro, I try to think ahead. What forests should I chop, where should I put cottages, how to move from there to the next improvement, how to manage the workers early on between different cities, stuff like that, trying to get as much out of them as possible while not 'wasting' turns. Usually I have way less than 1 worker per city. In this game I actually have 1 worker per city, and don't know know what to do with all of them. So in the above screenshot one guy is building a cottage on a tile no city can currently work (but one will in the future).

Usually I also check tech and resource trade opportunities each turn. Lots of things most people probably don't "waste" time doing

 

[Pedro78]

I see. I tend to do that kind of stuff in the first 50 turns or so, but I get bored pretty quickly . I'm usually doing fine with 0.75 workers per city though, unless I've got tremendous amounts of forests or really really good land. Maybe I'll try the next GOTM and play a longer, "better" game (not sure how this works though).

 

[Lain]

Wow, what about Huayna or even Mansa?

Totally forgot about Huayna . In my universe, Incas don't exist. But yup, Incas would certainly be the best pick in life-or-death situation... I would feel dirty though. Sitting Bull is still a top character for me.

Regarding motivation: This game offers so much room for constant improvement that I keep coming back to it. Just in the recent weeks I really improved a lot as a player. And it's really rewarding to compare my saves from now with 2-3 months ago.

Sometimes it's a bit tedious to finish games etc and I abandon a few if I have a "winning position" early. But recording gameplay was a nice change of scenery and helps me to keep engaged with games. Also I am obsessed with isolation right now. And I don't have a feeling I can win every (or even most) games. So it's really exciting. Even 1000 AD I have usually no idea how it will turn out.

Apart from that, I strive for "optimal gameplay". Doesn't mean I calculate every move or hammer. I don't use spread sheets or anything. But trying to identify the best strategy is really fun. Saving a worker turn here and there can be rewarding. If I play too quickly I get annoyed with mistakes and drop the game... so there is a strong perfectionism.

After all this time there's still so much stuff I don't know. About optimal space race for example... lots of stuff about modern era gameplay. So I never really get bored for a long time. Taking it "really serious" keeps me engaged. Because if I stop caring and "just play for fun" I start making stupid mistakes and lose interest (and hence, the fun in playing).

Also discussing stuff helps with motivation. Good players say different things about tech choices etc and you can shape your own playstyle. There is no blueprint for everything. So it's worth it to keep thinking. That's really rare. For example I skip Liberalism in many of my recent games and it improved my situation in many cases. And I consider IND to be a weaker trait than most. Below CHA and EXP for sure.

I learned lots of stuff from AZ videos that I only started to doubt recently (i.e: he always tries to whip workers/settlers with "max overflow" and I did it for a very long time..). Feels like I only started playing the real game just now .

 

[Fippy]

I can recommend small maps @Pangaea, they are not actually that small cos standard is imo already big in this game

Techs come a bit faster, with 4 AIs around it's a better overview for trading (or conquering ~~), and games overall feel less like work.
Another advantage would be that you have more time for wonders on deity or other time pressing things, changes gameplay a bit there and i think it's fun.

 

[Fish Man]

Spoiler :

Elepault rush is successful, and the Vikings are down for the count - my first successful war on immortal, too. Ragnar folded a lot easier than I thought he would, so now I have a bunch of units left over. Mehmed is unwilling to trade anything, so alphabet was a bit of a waste. Now to salvage my economy...

 

[Pedro78]

@Lain

I don't like to play Huayna either. However I value IND a lot (except in isolation). The main reason for that is the Great Wall --> Great Spy. So in most cases I'd have IND over EXP / CHA. By the way I tend to value EXP higher than CHA, because EXP speeds up the early game a lot while CHA is more situational (you don't always need the extra happiness badly). Another trait I really like is ORG, which really speeds up the early game in low-commerce starts (basically cuts the maintenance in half because of the game's tendancy to "floor" things). Only saying that because I feel like people tend to value ORG a lot less than CHA / EXP.

On one hand I'm striving for "optimal gameplay", but on the other hand I tend to get lazy after the first 75ish turns and just lose focus. Need to work on that

AZ's let's plays are completely awesome to learn the basic game mechanics. His videos taught me to beat Immortal and "Gold-Standard" deity (pangaea + bureau cap + marble). Now he certainly plays very fast and far from optimal, and has quite a few bad habits ^^

Oh and you did indeed improve a lot over the past months. There's such a huge gap in gameplay between your rather ugly Boudica game and the recent Hannibal / Cyrus games . (My attempt at the Boudica iso wasn't all that bright either so no rough feelings )

@Undefeatable

Spoiler :

I definitely wouldn't have rushed here. So much good land up for grabbing.

 

[Fish Man]

@Lain

@Undefeatable

Spoiler :

I definitely wouldn't have rushed here. So much good land up for grabbing.

Spoiler :

I might not have needed the land, and the land west may in fact have been better. However, remember. This is Ragnar effing Lodbrok we're dealing with here, with a strategy of pure military (10/10) and the highest possible unit build probability in the game (40/40). If I wasn't going to declare, he was, sooner or later - as I was his only neighbor - and I'd rather kill him before he builds two dozen swords and comes a'knocking at my door. And even if I fought off that assault, he would try again and again and again, with maces, muskets, rifles, until he succeeded or died, basically forcing me to divert 50% or more of my hammers to defense until I killed him off. My goal in annexing his land was not to expand in the most efficient way possible, but to remove a severe future threat.

 

[Pedro78]

@Undefeatable

Spoiler :

I'd rather get Ragnar as pleased as possible. He'll eventually declare but he won't get anywhere against a couple of protective archers for quite a while. Then make peace and eventually get him to friendly. Ragnar's favorite civic is HR, and he gives big shared religion bonuses so it shouldn't be very hard. This strategy woul make for a better development than simply attacking him.

 

[Fish Man]

@Undefeatable

Spoiler :

I'd rather get Ragnar as pleased as possible. He'll eventually declare but he won't get anywhere against a couple of protective archers for quite a while. Then make peace and eventually get him to friendly. Ragnar's favorite civic is HR, and he gives big shared religion bonuses so it shouldn't be very hard. This strategy woul make for a better development than simply attacking him.

Spoiler :

I'll agree that protective and totem poles are actually useful in this case, but I can't underestimate the AI's unit spam on immortal, and AFAIK he already had construction by the time I declared, so cats would very likely give me a lot of trouble. Also, there was no religion on this continent, at all - none was founded by me, Ragnar, or Mehmed who I met a couple turns into the war, and there were also border tensions, so getting to friendly would've been quite difficult.