Ranged units (archers) are not effective to upgrade

[stormyorky]

Something that I noticed and that bothers me is that if I have a couple of high-level archer units from ancient/medieaval warfare, once I enter inudustrial era and start using gunpowder units, I want to be able to upgrade my units to the industrial era types. Now, swordsmen works fine, as they share the same mechanics and promotions as gunpowder units does, but archers do not.
What use is there with promotions like +range, shoot over obstacles and double shot when the unit (infantry) is a melee type of unit? One should be able to upgrade archers to artillery units or get the promotions reset so that they can be changed to infantry type of promotions.

This is something I look forward to see in a patch or in a mod.

Anyone else has any thoughts on this? Am I the only one who get bothered by this?

 

[DaveGold]

It's particularly stupid that bows are ranged weapons but rifles are not. The obvious upgrade problems are a result of this.

Archers needed a different combat mechanic to siege weapons and melee troops. Whatever capability the archers had instead should have been carried over to gunpowder units too. There would have been no issue then with promotions.

 

[lschnarch]

It's particularly stupid that bows are ranged weapons but rifles are not. The obvious upgrade problems are a result of this.

Archers needed a different combat mechanic to siege weapons and melee troops. Whatever capability the archers had instead should have been carried over to gunpowder units too. There would have been no issue then with promotions.

This.

A major design flaw, and with this kind of mechanics I don't see any solution.

 

[sodrlame]

It's particularly stupid that bows are ranged weapons but rifles are not.

Exactly, makes absolutely no sense. I really don't understand how something so obviously wrong was designed into the game. I mean really a bow is capable of hitting a target from a further distance than a rifle?

 

[stormyorky]

That a bow is ranged unit while rifleman is not is merely an issue when it comes to how realistic the game is. That is not the problem I have with archery units. For me, the game can be unrealistic as long as mechanics are fine.

If riflemen/infantry units would be ranged, there would be no melee units besides cavalry (who are a dead-end when it comes to upgrades btw, another issue I have). For me, its fine that riflemen/infantry are melee units, but its not nice that your super-archers will be crap if you upgrade them to gunpowder units.

 

[Zenstrive]

Simple. Don't upgrade them.

 

[DaveGold]

For me, the game can be unrealistic as long as mechanics are fine.

Unfortunately the mechanics are not as good as they should be and the game is very unrealistic. If archers had different abilities to siege weapons then extra tactics would arise in the game and there would be a tactical progression through the ages.

 

[stormyorky]

Simple. Don't upgrade them.

I dont, I disband them instead. It feels pointless to nurture and acumulate loads of XP on an archer, only to disband it later. Im not satisfied with that solution.

 

[Serenya]

I upgrade to crossbowmen, and then leave them garrisoned -- if the AI does happen to attack, it is nice to have that additional ranged damage hitting them on the way in. I would like an upgrade path to a ranged unit for them though.

 

[stormyorky]

I found a mod online that allows crossbowmen upgrade to cannons. Thus, the main issue I had with this is pretty much gone

 

[davelisowski]

If they were treated as a missile, and upgraded to missile type weapons, them it would be cool.

Right now you just have to accept the fast that some promotions will eventually become useless.

Gift the units to city states late in the game. Then blow them away with your bombers and infantry!

 

[Sonereal]

It's pretty weird how they had the upgrades work.

Archers are pretty different from the way siege weapons work. Siege weapons take time to set up and therefore should probably only be used against cities or on defense. Archers though don't have to set up so they can move and then shoot instead of setting-up then firing from spot or moving and then setting-up.

And their attacks aren't as effective against cities.

 

[Slowpoke]

I don't think non-siege range units were really thought out at all in this game. Archer's get outclassed by sworsdsmen in the blink of an eye, and by the time you get crossbows you have longswordsmen which aren't phased by them at all. It's like they're half a tech era too late all the time.

 

[UncleJJ]

I usually have a couple of archers that I upgrade to a crossbows. They are very useful at providing support when attacking cities and help coastal cities defend against ships. But I don't give them any promotions, they work fine without them in the early game. I save up the experience and some of them have gained 60 exp or more. Then when I upgrade them to rifles I can give them the rifle promotions (usually some combination of shock, drill and medic).

That seems to be the best way to deal with the current situation, but I agree they should really have their experience reset when you upgrade from an archer to a rifle. That would not be hard to do.

 

[Sonereal]

It would be better if crossbow/longbows simply upgraded into the cannon line.

 

[Perfxion]

Would be cool to have a ranged rifle unit, ie Sniper to solve the problem.

 

[the343danny]

If xbows are allowed to upgrade to cannons, I think it would be fair and better balance to have cannons require iron.

 

[Lanstro]

I wouldn't be surprised if an expansion/patch/mod created units with 1 range, and making it so that units did lower damage at higher range.

So you'd have archers/crossbowmen/chariot archers who have 2 range, and do slightly more damage if they're only one hex away from their target. Then rifles/muskets would also have 2 range but have much less damage if they shoot at 2 range. Siege weapons would do similar damage at long range and short. There'd probably be a new unit, skirmisher, for use in ancient/classical age which has 1 range. Most cavalry would be melee but chariot archers/horse archers/pistol using cavalry would have ranged attacks that are more effective at 1 range.

 

[Sonereal]

Would be cool to have a ranged rifle unit, ie Sniper to solve the problem.

Snipers don't make sense. Realistically, a sniper unit wouldn't scale properly against an infantry unit and would do an strange amount of relative damage.

Plus, snipers are direct-fire (or as close as direct-fire as you can get when adjusting to difference) while archers are indirect fire weapons.

As for making cannons require iron. That seems like a nice idea. That way you don't have an obscene number of cannons coming from where the archery and siege line converge.

 

[CaptainKapow]

Maybe a Machine Gunner type unit could be added along the archery upgrade path. It maintains a ranged attack ability but has something to balance it against cities so that the siege-line is still preserved for that purpose.

Maybe a penalty against city attack, or a bonus in your boarders? I'm just brainstorming.

Edit: Or just a scaled down attack power compared to siege like the archery line already has (duh).