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Ranged units in all regards too strong

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by dailyminerals, Jan 18, 2020.

  1. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

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    Thinking about it, your right. The ranged promotions are indeed stronger than the melee promotions. Maybe we could take at look at it?
     
  2. Bridger

    Bridger Prince

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    If this actually is a problem (not sure it is, might just be the promotions, as already mentioned), I think one way to handle it would be to give all ranged units something similar to the unique Inca ranged unit. When it hits an enemy, they have 15% reduced CS for a turn or two. Reducing ranged unit power but giving them this kind of support capability might be a way to balance them (if they are, indeed, problematic).
     
  3. Blue Ghost

    Blue Ghost King

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    I would much rather avoid adding more abilities onto base units as a means of balance. It just makes things much more complicated, and difficult to balance and comprehend. If there really is an issue, I would much rather see it dealt with by adjusting the numbers.
    I think ranged units are fine. If there’s any adjustment to be made, I would lower their melee CS a bit, so they’re more vulnerable if not sufficiently protected by the front line.
     
  4. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    I can see knocking 1 more point off comp bows CS and maybe lower a base RCS % on 1-2 of the promotion levels. That's it.
     
  5. Randomized

    Randomized Chieftain

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    I absolutely hate status effects, they are irritating and impossible to keep track of. I'm forever suiciding units because I forget about them. Please no more status effects!

    As regards the main topic: maybe the reason many people find ranged units to be too strong is because of how the ranged and infantry units are leapfrogged on the tech tree. In my experience newly unlocked ranged units are really tough to deal with, but become underwhelming once the next tier of infantry comes online. The most extreme example probably being comp bows - they decimate warriors and spearmen, have a tougher time against swordsmen, then become really weak until machinery, where crossbows dominate the battlefield again. On standard speed this is fine imo, since the next tech is never many turns away. But I could see this being very noticeable epic (which I know a lot of people around here play on) where you have a much bigger window in which the new ranged units outclass most everything else.

    I don't really have experience with epic, so these are just some thoughts.

    Personally I'd rather not nerf ranged units, since I think it would make war into even more of a slow grind than it already is.
     
    itschris, Diverman, legoras and 4 others like this.
  6. Heinz_Guderian

    Heinz_Guderian Chieftain

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    Yeah for the sake of fun gameplay ranged units need to be pretty strong. I like the suggestions of lowering their promotions a bit and their cs though
     
  7. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives King

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    People talk a lot about how strong ranged units are but honestly it's not something I've experienced overmuch in my games. Maybe other people are better players than me, of maybe we are playing on different settings (I use Huge map, Epic speed, King difficulty). Personally though I find that if I don't have a strong line of melee units my ranged units get smashed. And I lot hitting ranged units with my melee units when they aren't shielded, I find it very satisfying.

    I also disagree that mechanics don't change over time. There is a huge difference between archers vs. warriors and archers vs. spearmen. And a big difference between eras. Melee units get significantly better at weathering range fire over time, seriously, they get special promotions to do exactly that.
     
    phantomaxl1207 likes this.
  8. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I think warriors should get 1 more CS, they are so bad currently and the AI LOVES them. Maybe comp bowmen could lose 1 CS or 1 RCS, they beat up swordsmen and can keep up with medieval units. I know we are all hyped for archer rushing, but comp bows are even more dominant in my opinion.

    Crossbows and muskets are okay IMO, partially because they unlock later than their comparable melee units.

    Ranged promotions used to be a lot worse than melee promotions. Bonuses to CS are always active, while the RCS bonus from accuracy and barrage only help when attacking. Flanking has been reworked but I'm not sure how good shock really is now. Drill is bad this patch but it might get saved later on.

    Bumping cover to 33% is probably a good idea too.
     
    vyyt likes this.
  9. Snipergw

    Snipergw Chieftain

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    1 CS to warriors sounds like a good idea. Nerfing comps seem alright -- conceptually I prefer nerfing CS, since they should die quickly once targeted, but in effect that's a very very minor nerfs to players and a much larger nerfs to AI, who way more often leave their units exposed. I'd take 1 RCS off the entire line, and bump cover to 33%.

    Does AI units get Cover for free on higher difficulties? I forget, but if they don't, maybe ancient era units (or their starting warriors), should get it.
     
  10. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    Siege weapons, swords, and longswords get cover for free.

    AI gets free experience on higher difficulties, sometimes it spends it on cover.
     
  11. vyyt

    vyyt Emperor

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    I say the exact opposite for the exactly same reason (weaker archers & stronger melee = more fun / more tactical unit placement for me)

    Out of all the people out there, shouldn't you, @Heinz_Guderian , have the most fun with your melee panzers crushing the support ranged units far behind the enemy frontline? :)
     
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  12. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives King

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    I don't think I've even been 'hyped for archer rushing' lol. Don't forget that adjusting the balance for offense also affects the balance on defense. Ranged units may be powerful in player hands, but we don't want them to be useless in the hands of the AI. Especially if there's a concern that attacking AI civs is too easy at the moment.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2020
  13. Heinz_Guderian

    Heinz_Guderian Chieftain

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    That made me giggle.
    I love the tanks! Just not slow boring melee units.
     
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  14. Moi Magnus

    Moi Magnus Emperor

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    "Back in my days" 3(?) years ago, ranged units were so squishy I had to constantly repeat to newcomers that got destroyed by the AI to stop building ranged units and have at least half of their army constituted of melee units. (I think there was a 6 month period where I've not build a single land ranged unit earlier than canons)

    Vanilla balance heavily advantage ranged, so something to keep in mind is the taking the opposite stance (ranged as support only) is very beginner unfriendly.

    That said, I'm not against tweaking back the balance in favor of melee, just make sure ranged units don't end up "glass canon with not enough firepower to be worth the hammers". The archer line of units doesn't have enough movement to be a full support unit (doesn't have access to scout promotions, and only has 2 movements). If it loses its firepower, it loses its reason to be build.
     
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  15. bigcat88

    bigcat88 King

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    I remember that days when non-uniqe usual archers\cbows was good only after taking range or double shot promo...
    Can we just make archers vulnerable to range attacks from land units(archers,skirmish,siege) + cities and for horseman line?
     
  16. azum4roll

    azum4roll Prince

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    Since ranged units use RCS for both offense and defense against other ranged units, they always take 24-36 damage from unpromoted identical units. Since Cover is the only defensive promotion they have, unless they take it they'll only take more damage from ranged attacks as time goes.
     
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  17. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives King

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    Wait, what? Where are you getting that from?
     
  18. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    When a ranged unit receives damage from a ranged attack, they use their RCS on defense. They only use CS against melee attacks.
     
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  19. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    Let's discuss specifics. Here is a changelog for units that I would support

    1. Archers to 1 range, CS and RCS stay the same. Comp bow and onwards have 2 range.
    2. Lower comp bows to 9 CS (from 11). For reference spearmen have 11 and horsemen have 13.
    3. Increase cover to 33% from 25%
     
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  20. Rhys DeAnno

    Rhys DeAnno Warlord

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    So basically Warrior tier? Bold.
     

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