Ranged vs melee XP gain

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by ExpiredReign, Mar 5, 2016.

  1. ExpiredReign

    ExpiredReign Deity

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    Currently XP gained by units is in favour of melee units. They will typically get 5XP when attacking when compared to ranged units getting only 2XP for attacking.

    This doesn't seem like a good ratio to me, it's imposing an arbitrary limitation on the type of "worthy" combat based on the weapons they use.
    Why should being proficient with a bow mean less than being proficient with a sword?

    Defending against a ranged unit makes more sense to gain less XP than against a melee unit in my mind, but then again there isn't any true reasoning behind that either, just feels right.

    Let's take our skirmisher units. Gaining only 2XP each attack means they are going to take a VERY long time to get any promotions above what they get upon production. To get to a third tier promo means 15 separate attacks, which clearly are not likely unless you are at war and you retreat every other turn to protect yourself. This in turn stretches out the time between promotions. Melee units have a 150% advantage!

    What reasons do you see in NOT evening up the playing field so both types get the same, or at least closer to parity?
     
  2. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    Ranged units gets less experience from attacking because they don't have to take damage to attack, I'm pretty sure they get the full 5 xp for getting attacked by melee units.
     
  3. Enginseer

    Enginseer Salientia of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Ranged units also get the leisure of having more targets to attack since *some* aren't limited to only what's adjacent to their tiles.
     
  4. ExpiredReign

    ExpiredReign Deity

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    Both statements are true but still not entirely satisfactory IMO.

    So the game is actively hindering the unit based on the mechanic employed for that unit! Seems counter-productive to me. Make them useful because they deal damage from afar but hinder their progress for the same reason!

    The fact they can attack units further away is also only on EACH attack, so the restrictions in advancement still apply.
     
  5. Enginseer

    Enginseer Salientia of the Community Patch Supporter

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    And that's bad how? You get one pro for a con. Seems like a good deal to me.
     
  6. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    My ranged units tend to get more promotions than my melee units simply because they tend to live longer.
     
  7. Legen

    Legen King

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    You're underplaying the advantage of range and of not taking damage back. A melee unit taking damage whenever it attacks means it will eventually have to fall back to heal. The time it spends healing in safety is time spent not collecting xp. Ranged units don't have to heal nearly as much as melee units do and, therefore, get more opportunities to attack and gain xp in the long run.

    The higher xp per melee combat is to compensate for the fewer opportunities to gain xp the melee combat implies.
     
  8. BenchBreaker

    BenchBreaker Warlord

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    ranged units will be OP if they get 5xp per attack, since they can attack with impunity

    imagine your slinger from the very beginning get 10 xp per turn :eek:
     
  9. Iamblichos

    Iamblichos Prince

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    What Funak said in IMO. The sense of arbitrariness there seems to be there for the sake of balance, melee units therefore have more risk/reward.
     
  10. ExpiredReign

    ExpiredReign Deity

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    This is actually a very good point. Thanks for that. However... now that we have a few 1 range ranged units that argument is less potent.

    We have 1 UNITCLASS_ANTI_TANK_GUN, 4 UNITCLASS_CAVALRY, 2 UNITCLASS_CHARIOT_ARCHER, 1 UNITCLASS_COMANCHE_RIDERS, 2 UNITCLASS_CUIRASSIER, 2 UNITCLASS_HORSE_ARCHER and 2 UNITCLASS_MOUNTED_BOWMAN units now, all of whom only have a range of 1 exposing them to counter-attacks.
    That's 14 different units, admittedly 9 of these are UUs and will not all appear in the player's list, but still 5 will.
    This change in behaviour means they too need to retreat to heal just like the melee units. Almost every attack from these units will result in a counter attack, usually from a melee unit, so the net result is the same as a melee engagement.


    PS.
    What was the reasoning in giving the Comanche Riders their own class instead of remaining as cavalry replacements?
     
  11. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    Just think of it as this. You gain experience from dealing damage and you get experience from taking damage, right? In melee combat you both deal damage and take damage, so you get double the exp.
     
  12. ExpiredReign

    ExpiredReign Deity

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    Thanks Capt. Obvious!:)

    I know that, that's why these new 1 range ranged units aren't getting the XP they deserve. For all intents and purposes they are melee.
     
  13. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    Well, if you keep bringing up things that are obvious, someone is going to have to explain them eventually.

    Except they don't deserve it, at all.
     
  14. tompliss

    tompliss Warlord

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    If it is so melee-favoring, then why do the units who have the most XP in my armies always are artillery and ranged units ?
    I mean, I always have accuracy 3, range +1, double attack units by the time I upgrade to Gatling/artillery.
    But if I have too look for drill/shock 3, march, blitz ... Well, I better have Alhambra to get those.
     
  15. Lord_Azazel

    Lord_Azazel Prime Swatter

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    But they are getting the xp they deserve. Melee units, considering they get counterattacked the next turn, take damage twice, deals dmg twice and gain 10xp. 1range ranged units take damage once, deals dmg twice and get 7xp.
    2range ranged units dont take dmg, deals dmg once and get 2xp, but they dont need to go back to heal.

    Of course the 1 range ranged units gets the xp they deserve.
     
  16. Wario Mario

    Wario Mario Warlord

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    The same reason the Barbarian Leader has been renamed Crom. :lol:
     
  17. Gort

    Gort Emperor

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    No they aren't, 'cause they don't take damage when they attack. If they took damage when they attacked, took ground when they destroyed a unit, and got melee unit promotions, then for all intents and purposes they would be melee. (except for all the other ways they're not melee)
     
  18. BenchBreaker

    BenchBreaker Warlord

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    well basically everyone replying in this thread is disagreeing with the OP. should be a indicator that ranged exp gain is balance as it is
     
  19. Legen

    Legen King

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    These 1-range units are mounted archers (or equivalent in later eras), meaning they should be able to move after attacking (just like melee cavalry). So, they attack without taking damage and retreat to somewhere safe, ideally.

    I remember someone mentioning that chariot archers had a bug in that they couldn't move after attacking in a beta version, haven't checked if correct and still happening. This case is an exception, however.

    If anything, people seem to think melee units aren't gaining enough xp. Neither agree nor disagree.
     
  20. ExpiredReign

    ExpiredReign Deity

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    Okay, let me clarify why I posted in the first place.

    The recent changes to 1 range ranged units made me aware of how they are now being used differently to other ranged units, like archers -- artillery. Those units are almost invariably protected behind a line of melee units which act as shields. Now that these recent changes have come in we have a slew of units that have to be within striking range of counter-attacks, not something designed into the game by Firaxis when they were deciding on the XP split between melee/ranged.

    If however the general consensus is: just stick with the current system, fine, I'll live with it.
    In the future it would be good to have replies that actually looked at the reasoning for existing mechanics instead of simply restating them as the answer. Modding makes changes and some changes affect other mechanics.
     

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