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Rank the leaders + miscellaneous thoughts

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by gamemaster3000, May 26, 2014.

  1. gamemaster3000

    gamemaster3000 Warlord

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    Thought I'd share a few observations about Brave New World:

    --Great starting tiles in the first four cities are better than any civ. Lots of river = lots of food, which leads to lots of beakers

    --Money is much more of a problem than it used to be now that rivers don't give cash. (A post I wrote on the subject http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=526566)

    --Monarchy (+1 gold +1 happy for every 2 citizens in the capital) is overpowered because early coins are so helpful. (Plus happiness!) If you want to expand with liberty you can't pay for the new city's buildings, and if you want to warmonger you can't afford the army without that gold. And on top of that it's also a solid bonus for the entire duration of the game.

    --The faith system is very well balanced and enhances the games core mechanics without unbalancing them. There's some pretty decent bonuses, but you could easily win the game without religion.

    --Diplomacy and espionage are good but not as good as faith. Faith makes the game more fun, I think diplomacy is more, "Don't mess up so bad they embargo you." It definitely changed how I thought about city states, though. (I'm not very good at working the AI though, so maybe there's something I'm missing here.)

    --Social policies are good and provide very solid bonuses, but actually winning with culture seems impractical. Any large AI is going to have so much culture you could either conquer them or launch the spaceship more easily.

    So now my ranking of the leaders based on their ability to win. I'm assuming about half the games have barbarians on, ancient starts, all victory types.
    (Reference of their bonuses at http://www.carlsguides.com/strategy/civilization5/civilizations/ Clicking the links gives the dude's strategies for them as well)

    Best:
    Zulu - ridiculous warmongering. Less maintenance is great, unique promotions from barracks is great, impi are great too.

    Assyria - siege towers and tech stealing are game-changing and bonus XP for great works of writing is ok

    Poland - free social policies is really strong. Hussars and Ducal stables are ok.

    China - 30% from great generals is quite good, double attacking chu-ko-nu are devastating, and +2 gold from libraries is quite helpful for early budgets

    Indonesia - free resources, which means free gold/happies, tons of faith from unique building and some potentially overpowered bonuses from unique swordsman

    Ethiopia - +2 faith from monument guarantees you'll have tons of faith. 20% combat is decent because you'll need it most when you're the underdog, free Drill 1 on riflemen is helpful

    America - (Edit: I agree that they're not top-tier, I still think +1 sight is undervalued by many.) I think it's easy to overlook how good +1 sight is. It's a godsend when artillery shows up, reduces the need for horse units to scout, and helps prevent barbarians from spawning, plus lets you find ancient ruins/good city sites/city states faster in the beginning. Minutemen are pretty good as are the B17s if you get that far

    Morocco - (Edit: They're good but not as good as Arabia.) trade routes give tons of cash the whole game, giving lots of options

    Average:
    Greece - decent city state bonus, strong early units to get a good start

    Rome - +25% production on buildings in Rome is quite good, decent early units

    Japan - injured units fighting at full strength is quite good for warmongering, but provides no peacetime benefit. Upgraded longswordsman are good

    Arabia - (Edit: They're better than I previously thought, Camel Archers can move after shooting which is extremely valuable.) 50% range on caravans is very dependent on your geography. Extra copies of resources from markets is quite good and potentially worth lots of gold or happiness. Camel archers are ok.

    Aztecs - culture for kills is ok, jaguars are very strong in the first 50 turns, floating gardens are very good the whole game through. (Edit: I ranked them a little lower because I usually play with barbarians off.)

    Shoshone - extra tiles when settling is pretty nice, choosing your ancient ruin bonuses can also be game-changing if you get enough of them. Comanche warrior is meh

    Egypt - wonder construction is good, war chariots aren't all that great unless the map is really flat, 2 happiness from temple and no maintenance is pretty nice

    Iroquois - forests as roads is helpful with their start bias. The swordsman not requiring iron is a potential lifesaver, and longhouses will probably be good in a few cities

    Siam - bonuses from city states were way better when maritime ones gave 6 food in the capital when the game first came out :) +3 culture from university is ok, elephants are ok

    Great if there's tons of water, terrible otherwise:
    Portugal - +gold from trade routes is great throughout the whole game, but the unique tile improvement really depends on how much water there is and if the city-states are on it, and the upgraded caravel is meh unless there's a ton of naval battles

    Ottomans - Capturing ships depends heavily on how many naval battles are happening, janissaries are powerful, but the sipahi aren't that good unless you have no intention of actually taking the city

    England - One of the worst unless you're doing tons of sea battles. I have abused the Longbowman's range of three in a few games, though.

    Venice - I need to play this one first

    Situational:
    Germany - needs barbarians turned on but -maintenance on land units, +production from bank are all decent

    Gandhi - Not bad, but you definitely have to match your playstyle to his reversed happiness. Elephants are ok, +2 culture from castle is ok

    Worst:
    Songhai - Gold from pillaging is ok, embarked units is meh, +2 culture from mosque is ok

    Russia - tundra start bias, strategic resources is meh, cossacks/cavalry come too late and get obsolete too fast, krepost is decent though

    Persia - Longer golden ages are ok, immortals are pretty decent, 2 happiness from banks is ok. I think he was better in vanilla but the new civs are more powerful

    Mongolia - Fighting city states isn't all that wise, and generally I think this game revolves more around siege units than cavalry

    France - Cultural victory only, which is IMO the most impractical victory. +4 strength to musketmen is meh

    Brazil - Again I'm biased against cultural victories. Jungle tiles are also very uncommon on standard settings, so only his start bias will help

    Civs I don't have:
    Huns
    Celts
    Carthage
    Sweden
    Denmark
    Polynesia
    Spain - conquistadors look interesting
    Austria
    Babylon
    Maya
    Inca
    Korea
    Byzantium
    Netherlands
     
  2. Silverman6083

    Silverman6083 History-Lover

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    In my opinion Greece, Russia, Brazil, & Mongolia are too low, & Indonesia is way too high, Indonesia should be in average or worst. America and Morocco should also be average.
     
  3. gamemaster3000

    gamemaster3000 Warlord

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    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=505057
    http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/938528-sid-meiers-civilization-v/66881680
    http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=165514319

    Some other rankings

    I need to bump up Arabia, maybe move down Morocco, and Egypt I don't think the war chariots are very good. They go obsolete fast, they don't upgrade to ranged units, their low strength plus inability to move after attacking make them very difficult to keep alive. Wonder production isn't that great because on deity the wonders are gone before I can even get the tech. On the plus side the 2 happiness from temples is even better than I was thinking.

    I should maybe move up Mongolia just because keshiks can move after shooting I believe which is extremely helpful.

    I still think America is undervalued by a lot of people but yah it's probably not one of the best civs.
     
  4. jlim201

    jlim201 King

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    Location:
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    My personal List:

    Best Tier

    Korea
    Babylon
    Poland
    Inca
    China

    Very Good

    England
    Zulu
    Assyria
    Morocco
    Arabia
    Egypt (i like wonders, but can sorta control myself)
    Spain
    Shoshone
    Siam
    Greece
    Persia
    Maya


    Good Tier

    Celts
    Netherlands
    Rome
    Austria
    Aztec
    Carthage
    Ethiopia
    Germany
    Portugal
    Russia


    Low Tier

    America
    Brazil
    Byzantium
    Francee
    India
    Japan
    Huns
    Songhai

    Bad Tier

    Denmark
    Indonesia
    Iroquois
    Ottomans
    Polynesia

    Special

    Venice
     
  5. Navelgazer

    Navelgazer King

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    Huh. I think Indonesia is generally way underestimated by the forum at large here (there's also a tendency here to play Pangea maps as standard, which I'll never understand, but I'm not sure the two are related.) Still, Indonesia belongs squarely in the "great if there's tons of water" camp, because without islands, they don't have a UA.
     
  6. djm_jm

    djm_jm Warlord

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    I disagree that Faith is more importance that diplomacy. Diplomacy is indispensable for the game. Diplomacy is much important in gold, exporting extra resources, is important in wars (obviously), in territory and others.

    I disagree too of the America. I think that your trait is very poor, compared the other civs. I eleged the Poland as the overpower culture, Greece the mister diplomacy and China/Zulu "war overlords"
     
  7. LoneRebel

    LoneRebel Emperor

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    I've never understood why Pangaea is the preferred map type around here. I would have thought that people would play maps that resemble our Earth - meaning Continents.

    And for conquest, I think I prefer Pangaea so that I can wipe out everyone on my continent before meeting the others. More important now given how huge warmongering penalties are in BNW.
     
  8. Sagax

    Sagax Emperor

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    Honestly, out of all rankings I find the Deity Tier List from adwcta to be the most accurate one. Probably because it was constantly being refined during those 42 pages of discussion, while other rankings are more static and probably made by less Civ-crazy people than players on CivFanatics.
    "Ok"? They are considered to be one of the most broken UUs for their era - rivaled only by Mongolian Keshiks. You can run in, shoot and retreat in the same turn, making them pretty much invulnerable siege monsters - something the appraised Chu-Ko-Nus can't do.
    The extended range of trade routes is never useless, and you're also missing the part about religion spread and double Oil.
    See what you did here? Portugal is actually much less map-dependent than Indonesia, because one just needs water that is abundant even on Pangaea, while the other requires specific land configuration. Feitorias are not that hard to build - you just need a CS with a coastal tile in its territory, the city itself doesn't need to be on the coast. The part about Nau made me scratch my head - when did Nau become all about naval battles?
    Oh-ho-ho....I`ll leave this part for other civfanatics to comment on.
    That seems like the mirror opposite of the general consensus: Russia's UA is good, Cossacks are okay and Krepost is meh.
    Their UA is pretty much non-existent, but god damn those UUs! The #1 military unit according to pretty much every poll backed up by "the Greater Great General" - with this you don't really need UA at all.
    If you commit to this, you'll find Cultural Victory to be more reliable than Domination (unless we're talking about high difficulty levels). Not to mention that it's a game within the game.
     
  9. Tyrvos

    Tyrvos Cu Chulainn

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    How is Indonesia not in the water reliant group? Their UA completely relies on different landmasses.

    And "meh" to double strategic resources? Really?!
     
  10. Acken

    Acken Deity

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    America is ranked best and Arabia Aztecs Shoshone are ranked average.

    Are you serious ? :p

    America is so bad compared to those it's not even a debate. Arabia will give huge loads of cash and camel archers are one of the best unit in the game. Aztecs have the overpowered floating gardens making them able to rival the best science civs. Shoshone have the best first 50 turns of all civs.

    Washington meanwhile has 2 late game UU, one being melee and a situational UA.
     
  11. budweiser

    budweiser King of the Beers

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    I really enjoy playing Tradition to Patronage and I just made a whopper of a capital playing Siam this way on a fairly average piece of ground. I cant wait to give it a few more goes. Siam is better than just average.
     
  12. LoneRebel

    LoneRebel Emperor

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    OP's rankings are quite different from most of the generally accepted rankings. :p But different perspectives are always good.
     
  13. Navelgazer

    Navelgazer King

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    Agreed. My own (partial, I definitely haven't played as everybody) tiering looks something like this, and isn't particularly wise or well-informed, to be sure.

    ELITE

    These are the civs which can reliably go after any victory condition and probably win; the only limit is your own ability.

    Poland - UA is always, always valuable and one of the most powerful. The UU and UB center around horses, and the UU isn't a replacement for anything you want to build, but that's fine. You build your strategy around exploiting horses and win.

    Aztecs - At first appears to be all about domination, but really is about building up a massive population with a ton of culture and doing what you want with it. The population bonuses help with the jungle tiles for science, combat helps with culture, there's nothing Aztec can't do, plus they get a big bonus for playing diofferently than others do.

    China - Obviously built for domination, but paper-makers coming as early as they do makes a big case for going Liberty/Honor and trying your hand at whatever you choose.

    Maya - Not my favorite to play as, for some reason, but undeniably powerful.

    Ethiopia - The Stele is the clear star of this civ, but the UA gives you the ability to bide your time until you're ready to launch a late-game run at almost anything you choose.

    Inca - Incredible production, plus possibilities for strong early rushes, plus population booms due to terrace farms, plus general economic benefits, means that the Incas are one of the (perhaps THE) best all-around in the game.

    RICH AND POWERFUL

    Arabia - Money money money money (money!) plus one of the best UUs and best UBs. Easy choice.

    Portugal - Basically Arabia of the sea.

    Venice - Can you tell that I value financial civs?

    Morocco - To finish off that grouping. These are all, if played correctly, almost cheating. The reason they're not in the "Elite" rankings, despite possibly being more dangerous, is that they can't "pick off the menu" for their Victory Condition. Still very, very good, though.

    IGNORE AT YOUR PERIL

    Sweden - Alex gobbles up City States, but an opponent can buy them back quick enough. Gustavus makes allies for life. The Hakkapeliita is a bit clunky, but it softens up the ground for a Carolean rush. By the time that comes, other civs must have chosen which side of Sweden they're on, and that's not an easy call to make.

    England - Two of the best UUs in the game, one of which synergizes with a nasty little UA. Get the Great Lighthouse and you own the water outright. The extra spy is a minor bonus, but nice. Definitely suited towards domination over diplomacy, though, and frighteningly strong if played right.

    Assyria - Almost within my elite rank, to be honest, because of being much more well-rounded than it at first appears. Early warfare is greatly frowned-upon in BNW, but damned if Ashurbanipal isn't great at it, and the science and tourism bonuses give you options of where to go with it if your campaign runs out of steam in the medieval era. No real clear diplomatic route, though.

    GOOD AT ONE THING

    Babylon - The single most boring civ, for whatever that's worth, but matched only with Korea in terms of chances at a science victory.

    Korea - Extremely turtle-y, but that's the point.

    Zulu - probably the most singularly-focused civ in the game, aside from maybe Korea and Babylon. The danger, of course, is falling behind on your tech while spamming Impi for your constant warfare.

    FUN LITTLE GAMBLES

    Spain - Obviously the classic gamble civ. Tercio is meh, conquistador is basically built for one map (Terra) but that UA can pay off big time.

    Japan - Culture can get simply out of hand here, along with production when you grab the "God of the Sea" pantheon, but you've got to get lucky on your start and be able to found your next cities fast and in the right locations.

    Indonesia - The UU is less of a gamble than people think, as even "evil spirits" Kris may be put to use as cannon fodder, but the UA plays out much like Japan's, and the UB depends on the actions of other civs.

    America - Need to have a lot of room to spread out. The UA should give you all of the nearby ruins if you use it right. Stil, your age of ascendency comes very late.

    More to come later.
     
  14. bhavv

    bhavv Glorious World Dictator

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    Top tier for me:

    Poland - Loads of free social policies, and the UB is pretty decent as it gives free production and gold on pasture resources (unlike the text claims, you dont need a pasture for the bonus).

    Korea / Babylon - Faster science gets you ahead of the game for anything - stronger units first, wonder techs, culture / tourism techs, space race.

    Aztecs - Not for the warmongering, but for the UB. Combine with ToA and get the largest possible cities on the game. The UA with honor opener also give a good amount of culture from barbs, and the UU helps you clear barb camps faster.

    Inca - great food and production with the UI, and huge gold savings with the UA, plus double movement in hills in extremely useful.

    Also I'll give an underrated mention for Songhai - turn on marathon speed and raging barbs and you end up swimming in gold to purchase loads of archers and settlers.
     
  15. gamemaster3000

    gamemaster3000 Warlord

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    Yah, my buddy and I usually play without barbs to make the game go faster which definitely hurts my rankings of the Aztecs and Songhai.

    Barbs are kind of a pain with trade routes now, too.
     
  16. Princeofnigeria

    Princeofnigeria The illustrious

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    My nonprofessional non medical opinion that will be updated as I think about it more:
    Strongest:
    Korea
    Maya
    Poland
    Arabia
    China
    Babylon
    Shoshone
    Inca
    Zulu
    Strong:
    Persia
    Greece
    Aztecs
    Ethiopia
    Songhai
    Morocco
    Siam
    Assyria
    Polynesia
    Above Average:
    Huns
    Mongolia
    Carthage
    Sweden
    Austria
    England
    Average:
    Portugal
    Netherlands
    Russia
    Rome
    Celts
    Germany
    Egypt
    America
    Below average:
    Brasil
    New France
    Spain
    Japan
    Venice
    Weak:
    India
    Iroquois
    Weakest:
    Denmark
    Byzantium
     
  17. LoneRebel

    LoneRebel Emperor

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    I don't really understand some of your rankings though.

    Germany is just situational? There's nothing situational about a 35%-45% production boost in every city.

    I may have a bias for cultural victories, since they're the ones I end up winning most of the time. Even without trying for them. I would rate Brazil and France higher for that reason.

    Persia: Oh, come on. 25-turn Golden Ages with Chichen Itza and that Freedom tenet. Far from being the worst.

    Mongolia: The game doesn't revolve around siege units, it revolves around ranged units, which the Keshik is, plus it's mounted and can move after attacking. Now combine that with Khans. The UA is a tiny bonus because of how OP the UUs are already.

    Arabia: Camel Archers are not just "ok", they might be the best unit in the game.

    England: You probably rated them low since their UA gives little peacetime benefit. But the general consensus seems to be that with UUs that OP, they don't need a peacetime benefit.
     

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