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Rank the traits 1-11

Quadruple post...sorry everybody. Just read the enitre thread.

-Question : How would, as someone suggested, making double speed Security Bureau affect our opinion of PRO? I think it would be somewhat culturally logical, and a nice little boost to make this poor trait most people don't like better. I would really like it then. I'm not saying PRO needs to be improved, but I thought this suggestion was interesting and could possibly help balance the game.

-Regarding PHI / IND - IT WOULD BE RIDICULOUS. I'm not saying the developers left it out on purpose, but I'm glad they did. Blitzkrieg did a good job pointing out why it would be ridiculous so I don't feel I have to. IF a civ had PHI / IND they should have the most useless UU AND UB BY FAR IMO.

UU : Super MMobile SAM. +10% intercept chance including tactical nukes.
UB : Arcology. Available after ecology / computers / steel. Recycling Center is a pre req. It would cost lots and lots of hammers, +1 population +2 food.
 
Wonders pop great people.
Great people create wonders or give us techs to create wonders.
Vicious cycle of rediculousness.
How can one not see how absurd PHI / IND would be?
If I were to play a PHI / IND civ does that mean I could beat any difficulty on any map or any person in multi-player? No. Is it still ubsurdly too powerful? Yes.
 
IND/PHI would allow us to transcend the need for a good amount of decent land to keep up, as long as we have 1 decent production city. FIN and ORG, while powerful economic traits, require a certain amount of land to work with before they really show their benefits - a non-trivial requirement on higher levels.

IND/PHI would allow us to force through our preferred strategy, without any chance for the AI to keep us from reaching a winning position unless it became a lot better at warfare.
 
Personally I find a philosophical leader with easy access to both stone and marble is able to have just as broken wonderspam economy as a IND/PHI leader would. It's a lot less guarenteed than a trait combo, but it can happen.

It's just great to meet the AIs at optics in an isolated start and find yourself with the tech lead.
 
Any IND leader can effectively have IND/PHI just by running Pacifism anyway.

Then what about when a PHI leader runs pacifism? Pacifism doubles your GPP from specialists, not wonders, and it has consequences.
 
Then what about when a PHI leader runs pacifism? Pacifism doubles your GPP from specialists, not wonders, and it has consequences.

Pacifism double wonder GPP as long as your state religion is present same as specialists.
 
Then what about when a PHI leader runs pacifism? Pacifism doubles your GPP from specialists, not wonders, and it has consequences.

PHI + Pacifism isn't worth it. You've already got fast GPs, so it's better to focus on faster buildings from OR or stronger units from Theo.

And Pacifism most certainly has +100% GPP, regardless of whether they come from Specialists or Wonders.
 
PHI + Pacifism isn't worth it. You've already got fast GPs, so it's better to focus on faster buildings from OR or stronger units from Theo.

And Pacifism most certainly has +100% GPP, regardless of whether they come from Specialists or Wonders.

It is worth it more often than not since you are probably generating so many GPP anyways. You run the best civics for your empire wether you are phi or not, while it is true that you would have to make more gpp before pacifism probably is worth it with phi it isn't hard to pass that treshold... phi + pacifism is a lot stronger for generating GPP than just phi alone...
 
Any IND leader can effectively have IND/PHI just by running Pacifism anyway.

Except it doesn't come as early and would not be as potent as PHI + Pacifism.

Saying that IND + Pacifism is effectively IND + PHI is like saying
...Having Barracks is just like being AGG
...Having the Cristo Redeemer is just like being SPI (I actually read someone who said this, trying to dis SPI...totally disregardying that CR comes late game, sometimes I wonder at people's ability to overlook the obvious)
...Having a theater is just like being creative

These statements are just not true. They totally ignore that traits are available from 4000 BC and the potential for combining traits and buildings / wonders / civcs etc. for even more powerful effects.

As someone who's run PHI / Parthenon / National Epic / Pacifism I assure you IND/PHI does not equal IND / Pacifism.
 
Personally I find a philosophical leader with easy access to both stone and marble is able to have just as broken wonderspam economy as a IND/PHI leader would. It's a lot less guarenteed than a trait combo, but it can happen.

Don't count on it happening.
Actually I used to reason the same way a long time ago, before I learned to go all out wonderspam with IND leaders. Wonderspam is nolonger a matter of pure opportunistic luck now.

Here's a thought:
what is better, IND+pacifism or PHI+organized religion?
 
Except it doesn't come as early and would not be as potent as PHI + Pacifism.

I still maintain that PHI + Pacificsm isn't that much better that it's worth an additional anarchy from Org Rel. However, if IND and with enough wonders to back it up, it would be.

Saying that IND + Pacifism is effectively IND + PHI is like saying
...Having Barracks is just like being AGG

Completely false. AGG is not the free combat 1, but the ability to counter the enemy with the 1 promotion from the rax.

...Having the Cristo Redeemer is just like being SPI (I actually read someone who said this, trying to dis SPI...totally disregardying that CR comes late game, sometimes I wonder at people's ability to overlook the obvious)

Well, technically the CR is better than SPI, but considering how late Radio is, it in no way hurts the strength of SPI.

...Having a theater is just like being creative

That's just silly. If you said having the Madrassa or the Terrace, you'd have made a much more valid point. (except CRE's main advantage is the instantaneous boost to culture, plus cheap Libs)

These statements are just not true. They totally ignore that traits are available from 4000 BC and the potential for combining traits and buildings / wonders / civcs etc. for even more powerful effects.

It's not particularly hard to bulb Philosophy after learning CoL for Caste. So, at the point the SE starts kicking into overdrive, you've got Pacifism right there.

As someone who's run PHI / Parthenon / National Epic / Pacifism I assure you IND/PHI does not equal IND / Pacifism.

I never said it equalled IND/PHI. But the more bonuses to GPPs, the less cost effective they each are individually.
 
Emperor/immortal. havent tried diety

Tier 1:
Fin - Cha - Org

Tier 2
Spi - Phi - Cre

Tier 3
Exp - Pro - Imp

Tier 4
Agg - Ind


I think we can all agree ind/phi would be amazing... on prince. I dont see wonder spamming being worth it on higher difficulties, even with those traits.
 
I think we can all agree ind/phi would be amazing... on prince. I dont see wonder spamming being worth it on higher difficulties, even with those traits.

Oh, it can be amazing. Stick all those wonders in a super bureaucracy capital, get pyramids to run representation, settle all the great people you get from wonders into the capital and enjoy a huge tech lead over the AIs that lasts at least into the Industrial Era. :goodjob:

It's a pretty specific and somewhat situational strategy, but when it works it works.
 
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