Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by strijder20, Dec 17, 2011.
Unless your in an isolated start...
Jaguars are polarizing with the masive differences of opinion. Some love them and some hate them.
I used to hate them but kind of like them now. Your reasons are good and there are others. Woody III is a good promo and even Woody II can do some nice worker stealing because the AI figures it has only one moves and then goes two moves to capture a worker clearing a forest. A Woody III Jaguar is easy to get - 5 XP's (don't even need barbs - barracks and animals will do) and it moves fast until forests are cleared and even Axes have trouble attacking them if the Jag is in a Forest or Jungle like he should be.
I don't often go up the Woodsman line but it makes Aztecs fun and unusual.
@Tlalynet - Skirmishers are a top UU, no question. Even in isolation they give excellent barb protection and are cheap.
Ata, all the things you listed make it an excellent MP choking UU, but how are you going to use it against the AI? Woodsman is fine, but cities are generally not located in forests. If you attack a city, you will get huge problems facing axes, and your catapults can't keep up with your jags.
Go IW first, chop out Jags, take any AI that doesn't have BW yet + use your speed to scout sources of bronze, DOW, and deny bronze to other AI's.
It probably doesn't work once the AI starts super teaching, but it works fine on Monarch for clearing out 3 or so AI. If only that didn't kill your economy to actually keep those cities...
Thats more leveraging the resourceless thing than the woodsman thing, but then you get a nice woodsman III guy to heal and help take out somoene else.
Then you have tonnes of barbs to deal with thx to razing capitals, so the woodsman promotion is great, even against axes.
This is a question I want answered for my mod- do you guys think giving the Bowman and Landskhnect units a +100% versus Melee unit bonus instead would make them useful?
Uhm, no, as the Landsknecht already have that bonus ?
Won't do that with the bowman. Do something interesting, like the maker of RFC-DoC : give them collateral damage. Kind of a super-early CKN, but relatively weaker.
Make Landsknechts maces with +50% against mounted.
Aha. So landcraps should be pretty much Phalanxes but replacing pikes and better. ok
I like that idea for the bowman, though.
Yeah, like Phalanxes in a certain aspect, but good against all mounted units; and replacing maces, not pikes. This way, you could also use them for attacking cities.
1. Cataphract (crushing and +2 strength is too OP)
2. Praetorian (quite same)
3. Cho-Ko-Nu (like little catapults)
4. Skirmisher (good attack and excellent defensive unit)
5. War chariot (with horse resource near capital makes it crushing)
1. Ballista elephant (too specified and needs elephant resource)
2. Phalanx (really? just put one spear on stack with axes make same effect)
3. Jaguar (-1 strength do not compensate +1 forest defense although it's not difficult to get +3 FD)
4. Dog soldier (-1 strength )
5. Gallic warrior (little defensive effect does not make me wowing)
Agreed, it isn't much of a city attacker. It excels at worker stealing, denying resources and generally harrassing the enemy so he's easy picking later. If the AI has Copper hooked up, Jags are a lot less useful. However, if the Jags are in a forest Axes have trouble attacking them. The Supermedic is a bonus.
@Harald - what about the Panzer? I can only see it working on Deity, but some Deity players tell me it's trash.
1. Quechua (no tech or resource requirement and bonus against the default defender unit = WIN)
2. Praetorian (being Roman + iron makes me very very happy)
3. Skirmisher (like mini-longbows with just Archery, sweet!)
1. Ballista elephant
3. Gallic warrior
Reasons should be obvious.
No way is Gallic Warrior bottom 3 . Not top 3 but definitely not bottom .
1. Can be built with copper . Significant if you have it . Pre chop forests on the way to IW then unleash them.
2. 50% withdrawal for an early unit is very cool . Great nutcrackers that give your precious CR Gallics a much better chance.
3. Free promo that lasts the whole game ....as do hills ( unlike forests) .
They require some finesse unlike Praets ( and yes , of course Praets are superior) , but on higher levels all the resourcless , or near resourcless UU's move up a lot in desirability as land is so much harder to get.
I'd like to comment on a couple of things I've read
-Numidian Cavalry being weak
-Jaguars being weak
Okay, about the Numidians...the poster pointed out they're weaker vs. archers than normal horse archers and they still die to spears. In my mind the optimal use of HAs or swords is to immediately pillage the enemy's horses/copper/iron so that you face archers. NC can have an easier time choking and pillaging enemy territory because they can handle spears when you consider they get an extra promotion with the stables. As for being on the offence vs. archers, yes they have 1 less strength than normal HAs, but they also have a higher withdraw chance which I believe makes up for it. Therefore, I'd say they are just as good as normal HAs vs. archers and much better vs. melee units and for empire defence.
As for the jaguar, the way I look at him is this - I don't compare him to a sword, I compare him to an axe. Think about it, when you research BW normally you have to send a settler over to a copper source, mine it, and connect it by road to your capital. How long does that take? It probably averages at least the amount of time it takes to get to IW, and I'd even bet it often takes longer. If you beeline for IW you can have jags at around the same time a normal civ would have axes. They don't require any resources and that is what truly makes them shine - you get them out quickly. They obviously have difficulty vs. enemy axes so the point is to run them into enemy territory ASAP and pillage their mines, then they will face archers, or you can simply rush the enemy city closest to a metal mine. So it's not really fair to compare them to swords, but rather compare them to axes. How does Monty's jag compare to an axe, when it's trying to rush a city? It actually compares very favourably. It's str 5.5 and with CR it'll have a 30% city attack bonus, thus it's 10% stronger and has a 10% better attack than an axe, so it can defeat archers much more easily, it also costs less than a sword and doesn't get countered by chariots, and it's a great choking/pillaging unit so in most circumstances it won't have to face more than 1 or two axes anyway. I actually think it's a very solid unit.
Rather that say "it's not bottom 3", what UU's are below it? (or, what UU's are the bottom 3). That's a more interesting discussion, i think.
Carrack ( extremely map dependent , yes others are map dependent too but this moreso)
All IMHO clearly inferior to GW's
Landsnekchts[oh damn the spelling!] are not crap. In a recent game I was invading Charlie, Aachen had 10+l---s fortified. And hell, I wasted a lot of time taking it, because they could counter all of my units. I had to wait many turns to continue my invasion after Aachen [waiting for reinforcements].
Landsnekchts also have another failing . If you intend to attack cities with them , besides their low base strength , they can take damage before you strike , mostly from mounted units . At least with old fashion pikes and X bows your swords / maces are generally intact if the AI attacks you before you attack the city.
As straight up defenders that are very good , but a defensive UU is pretty underwhelming at that stage of the game considering what a good job longbows , pikes and X bows do
And the game is rigged!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
To the point that now I consider winning 60% very lucky.
Landsnekchts totally destroy other pikemen!
In before people complain this is overpowered and must be fixed.
What do you mean?
Separate names with a comma.