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Ranking Modern+ Era Buildings

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Stalker0, Oct 6, 2019.

  1. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    I wanted to take another look at modern and beyond era buildings. I still think many of the buildings at this point don't hold their weight, considering how few turns remain in the game at this point.

    To start, I'm going to use a simple ranking system.

    A (All) - The building is solid enough to be built in most places.

    C (Capital) - The building is good in your capital, or maybe just one key city.

    F (Forget it) - The building is most of the time...a waste of your time.

    Now important, these are general rankings. I am sure anyone can come up with an optimized scenario when an F building was good to build. This is meant to be most general games.

    Assumption:

    Processes and costs. I will often use a process to help set a baseline for judgement. If a building can't beat just running a process, than its truly worthless. Remind that processes = 25% of hammers. For a buildings cost I will assume 50% of its hammer cost, due to investment. Now while you could argue I should be factoring in the gold cost of that investment, I'm not going to do that because at this stage in the game, investment is pretty much what gold does. This effectively sets a pretty low bar of expectation...I am giving the building a large benefit of the doubt here, but is also allows me to simplify the math and not worthy about multipliers as much.


    Hospital (A): Hospitals are nice in that they serve many purposes. The food bonus is worthless, but the science generated can be useful in big food cities (has to beat 225 total science, which is doable in many cases), the healing bonus is nice for frontless cities, and the supply bonus is still relevant for Tradition civs that need a bit more supply. No single bonus for the hospital is great, but you get enough different bonuses to make it useful.

    Stock Exchange (C): The gold bonus is not great, especially with the lower pop bonuses now a days, it will generally only pay for itself in the capital (and not by much, at 10ish GPT it takes 25 turns to pay off vs a process). The 10% investment reduction is useful in a single city that is going to buy a lot of units (like your capital, or authority using mercenaries)...so for that its worth a C...but only that.

    Coal Refinery (A): Because of the percentage production booster, this one is always worth building in your big prod cities. And then beyond that, if you need the coal, you need the coal.

    Wire Service (A): This is actually the last great yield boosting building to me. If you are doing your CS right, you can easily bag +20-25 culture and/or science with this thing, and at a reasonable cost. The diplomatic unit bonus is just icing on the cake.

    Research Lab (C+): This one used to be an A to me, but the more I think about it, the more I think its a C+. Your base is +12 science without medical labs (which are crap, see below), that takes 80+ turns to pay off. The crux of this is the GS enhancement...as GS are significant science makers at this point in the game. So anything that can shave off turns to go to a GS (or at the latest part of the game, actually bag you a new one), is a huge bonus.

    Broadcast Tower (C-): If you can theme it, its an alright building in the capital. And when your going CV more tourism in the capital is good. But the culture boost is not good.

    Medical Lab (F): Hot garbage. The growth bonus doesn't matter, and the building has to generate 312 yields just to be worth its base cost...let alone the maintenance.

    Stadium (F, A with Freedom): The GAP bonus is alright, but honestly its takes so many GAP at this point to move the needle I don't think its really does much. However, with freedom's media culture power it becomes very good culture booster, and you are probably going CV with freedom where the tourism bonus is useful to you.

    Military Base (C-): The military base is not a sexy building but it has its uses. The defense and healing is generally only useful for a tradition player who is trying to hold a key piece of territory from an encroaching autocracy player, but hey its a decent benefit. Also it can help tradition players get that last bit of extra supply they may need.

    Further, if you are building a large air force, the base can pay for itself in 4 planes, so it has a use there.

    Hydro Plant (F): Maybe you have one city in your empire that has a long enough river to make this worthwhile...maybe. But in most of my civs, its a waste of time.

    Police Station (C-): I might plunk one down in my capital, as the gold stealing can be annoying. But that's it, and not every game. Its often an F for me.

    Wind Plant (F): Better than the hydro plant, and maybe you have 1 city with the terrain to both worth the investment. But it needs to have really good terrain...it takes a lot to make this worth it, and most of the time that doesn't happen.

    Nuclear Plant (A): To me, this remains the definition of what a late game building should look like. Its unapologetic in its strength, the only hammer boosting building in a long time I get excited about building.

    Strategic Defense System (A): The AI likes the use nukes, and there is nothing that can ruin your day quicker than a key city or army getting nuked. Its not a building you want to build, but you can be glad you did.

    Airport (A): Always built in the tourism city for tradition players, but warmongers love this building. Airlifting is great when are super wide, but the airplane boost is massive. Very good for what it does.

    Solar Plant (A): Slightly more expensive than nuclear, but doesn't cost a resource. Build them everywhere your terrain lets you.

    Recycling Center (A): If you need aluminum, you build this...that simple.

    Spaceship Factory (C): Funny enough, the massive +25% science boost looks impressive, but compared to build cost, you actually would get about as much science doing process (if your city hammers > city science, you will usually lose out). But at this point if your going for SV, its often building that last few parts that costs your end game turns, so anything to speed that up is useful. Aka you build this wherever you are building parts.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2019
    vyyt, Bromar1, CrazyG and 4 others like this.
  2. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    See our previous discussion on power plants for a loooong discussion on how to both make power plants more coherent as a building class and make the less valuable ones in line.

    Police station is most valuable for unlocking the NIA, strangely enough. You NEED 1 in your empire, but after that, the anti-espionage bonuses are not worth the hammers and lost time. I think that’s fine though, I don’t think espionage buildings should be an every city thing anyways.

    Agreed that the medical lab is baloney. There is no situation where building this over processes won’t hurt you. The only thing I can think of that would make this building worthwhile is if a MASSIVE bonus on :c5citizen: city growth was added. Otherwise, most cities are looking to grow much in this late era anyhow.

    I’d like to add to your list the Pentagon Wonder. It’s no good, both in its lack of value, and it’s repetitive design (literally just doubles the imperialism scaler). I just played an imperialism/autocracy/pentagon game and got the 1:c5gold: unit upgrades. It’s a cute parlour trick; moving my upgrade costs from 80:c5gold: to 1:c5gold: at turn 250 isn’t a legitimate help to my strategy.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2019
  3. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    In my experience it is extremely rare to actually finish a spaceship factory in time to use the bonus production, outside of a tradition capital.

    I'm not convinced that nuclear, solar, and recycling centers are A's.

    The pentagon is genuinely terrible.
     
  4. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Thought I would do a real world check. So my current game, I just build a solar plant in one of my secondary cities. I'm getting 72 hammers worth from the build (that's already subtracting 6 from the gold cost). It was a 1200 hammer build, so pay off in 17 turns. I estimate I have about 50ish turns left to go.

    Edit: AI finished the game after only 23 turns....so the building only paid for itself for 6 turns. So there you go.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2019
  5. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    I guess the math changes if you factor Progress and Industrialism bonuses, both to the finished building and the building process.

    The only thing that annoys me is the factories that boost the terrain. It never seems to be better than working specialists.
     
  6. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    I like the idea of ideologies boosting plants. Maybe they could use the % modifier from industry to augment power plants?

    Freedom: New Deal:
    +4 of the relevant yield from GP tiles
    +10%:c5production: and :c5gold: from power plants
    (people have been clamouring for a boost to this tenet for a long time)

    Order: Workers Faculties:
    +15%:c5science: from Factories and Power Plants.
    Build Factories and Power Plants in half the usual time.
    (This tenet, in its current state, is atrocious. If not this boost, it needs something)

    Autocracy: Third Alternative:
    Reduces :c5unhappy:Distress in all cities by 20%.
    Police Stations and Constabularies provide +3:c5culture: culture +3:c5production: production, and are constructed 100% more quickly.
    +10%:c5culture: from Power Plants.
    (Autocracy doesn't have any obvious loser policies like the other 2 ideologies, and adding to a tier 1 policy also means the bonus should be comparatively weak)
    Specialists gotta eat, so you aren't going to get to a situation where a power plant that boosts terrain is giving 0 benefit. That's why I have been lobbying for better terrain coverage and a boost to processes. That will make the power plants feel less specialized.
     
    Omen of Peace and Kim Dong Un like this.

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