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Rape & Human Evolution

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Narz, May 17, 2014.

  1. Masada

    Masada Koi-san!

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    Prehistory refers to the period before we have written sources. It doesn't mean that we don't have any evidence. I literally have a thousand odd pages of monographs on my desk talking about a single sort of bronze artifact in prehistoric Southeast Asia.

    Bands aren't tribes. Monkeys operate in bands. But it doesn't follow that monkeys operate in tribes. As I've said, the term tribe has a specific academic meaning. It doesn't just mean a group of people, although that's certainly what popular culture thinks a tribe is.
     
  2. Narz

    Narz keeping it real

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    But it seems like forming tribes with common beliefs, rituals & superstitions would be very adaptive. Even Neandrathals seemed to have culture of some kind.
     
  3. Valka D'Ur

    Valka D'Ur Hosting Iron Pen in A&E Retired Moderator

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    I don't see the words "police" or "hospital" in this post... :hmm:
     
  4. Masada

    Masada Koi-san!

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    That's closer to the sorts of characteristics academics use when talking about a tribe. But while I think it's uncontroversial to say that humans have spent a lot of time organized as tribes, I don't think you can say with certainty that humans have always been organized as tribes. There's a big of lag between anatomically modern humans evolving and say funeral rites becoming visible. This suggests that human cultural practices as a thing developed overtime. (This doesn't mean that humans didn't have a culture beforehand, it just suggests that we have little evidence of that being the case. Neanderthals suggest that there is something to be said of the idea but I'm sure if I agree with the view because it relies on the notion that the Neanderthals were less developed than us. I'm no longer sure if that's actually true, or really if it ever was).
     
  5. timtofly

    timtofly One Day

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    It is all rape and pillage. That is the natural selection part. Humans do not rape to reproduce. They rape because it feels good, and then if they can, remove all remembrance of the occasion. Rape is not a product of evolution, nor does it leave much for evolution to work with in it's purest form. Modern humans have tried to sanitize it down to a level of acceptance.

    This is not rape. They took the women and children and integrated them into their way of life. It gave them a means for their unmarried males to create their own families. They also had no problems with more than one wife. The reason why they were commanded to keep the women and children was a specific command to not rape and pillage.
     
  6. Bootstoots

    Bootstoots Deity Retired Moderator

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    I'll disagree with you slightly, although I mostly agree with your sentiment. Evolution and morality do have something to do with each other - morality allows humans to cooperate in groups. There has to be a general desire to cooperate with your group, and to punish people who attempt to free-ride off of the community by being extremely selfish, or social structures break down. There have been a variety of interesting experiments showing that a concept of fairness, for instance, exists in primates, rats, and dogs among other social animals. Evolution will select against organisms that fail to cooperate and are punished for it, and behaviors resembling "eye for an eye" morality will evolve in simulations involving the iterated prisoner's dilemma.

    Capuchin monkeys don't like inequality

    Other interesting examples include incest. Human societies almost always forbid sex among relatives at the 1/2 (parent-child or sibling-sibling) level and the 1/4 (aunt/uncle-nephew/niece or half sibling-half sibling or grandparent-grandchild) level, but usually allow it at the 1/8 (first cousin-first cousin) level. There's a trade-off involving inbreeding depression and propagation of your own genes here that favors intermediate levels of relatedness over being too closely or too distantly related. I suspect that the incest taboos that appear across societies have a lot to do with this problem.

    But rape hasn't been dealt with consistently by human societies, which leads me to think that it's not really evolutionarily favored or disfavored on average. Here's where more complex morality involving our capacity for empathy needs to be applied.

    Evolution isn't totally blind to morality - some moral strategies work better than others. But you're right that it doesn't give much guidance on most important moral issues, like rape and inter-group violence.
     
  7. MilesGregarius

    MilesGregarius Half-baked Renegade

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    How is that not permission, if not encouragement, to rape?

    Plunder is, by definition, theft by force. Taking another person sexually by plunder is the very epitome of rape.

    Furthermore, women and children are lumped in with livestock. They're condemned as chattel to be used.

    Is G-d so obtuse that he can't simply say treat your fallen enemies' women and children as members of your community? If that is indeed what G-d intended to say, is He so foolish as to not see how some people will (willfully) construe this verse to imply permission to rape and brutalize? Or did G-d intend tour interpretation, only for the transcribers/translators of the Bible to foul it up beyond recognition?
     
  8. Agent327

    Agent327 Observer

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    Indeed.

    First, rape is not sex with violence: it is violence with a sexual connotation.

    Then:

    Very disturbing. As much as it is without any foundation.

    As the rest of your post is simply a number of assumptions lumped together with certain prejudices, I think we can conveniently skip that. It's certainly not material for any Reasonable Discussion.
     
  9. Loppan Torkel

    Loppan Torkel Deity

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    No, not you, it seems to happen anyway. In all honesty I'm not sure what the main question of this thread is.
    Is it what role rape has played in human history? What role it plays today due to it's role in history? Or our biological, psychological or sociological tendencies and acceptance toward similarities to rape and being raped?
     
  10. dusters

    dusters Emperor

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    There is no word of police, because our family is buddhist. if she felt like contacting police, she can go ahead, we wouldn't shame her at all. However, we believe anything that happens happens because of karma.

    THis means that my advice given to her really shouldn't be taken seriously/as general advice, cus it's based on religion in our case.

    Hospital - she wouldn't get injured if she doesn't fight back.
     
  11. Masada

    Masada Koi-san!

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    I'm not trying to tell how you should believe but I find that to be a really strange view of karma. I mean from my perspective not doing anything in this case might result in you, essentially, doing evil to another because rapists are often repeat offenders. A not unreasonable analogy would be this: you get bitten by a dog but choose to do nothing to teach that dog not to bite. As a result, a child gets seriously injured. From what I understand, not doing something to reduce harm in Buddhism (or at least what I know of Buddhism) as in most religious traditions tantamount to doing it oneself.
     
  12. dusters

    dusters Emperor

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    Well, you put yourself in a scenario where you can get raped by your free will. Anything that happens happens to teach you something. Therefore you enjoy any experience life/karma throws at you.

    I agree that if you should act, you should. But here - if a man wants to release his sexual tension then go ahead, help him. It's natural for men to have libido. Maybe you can talk the man into oral thing so you don't get touched that much. If you approach the situation in a loving, friendly manner, more opportunities to deal with it arise.
     
  13. classical_hero

    classical_hero In whom I trust

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    You do realise that Israel just added mouths to feed with no manner of being productive. That is a rather merciful act. Considering that God had judged the inhabitants of the land many centuries ago and the peoples had warning of the coming judgement with what God did to Jericho, only a foolish person would stay in the land. Some of the people weren't fools and did leave, but there was an option for the inhabitants to have peace with the Israelis.
    Deuteronomy 22:10 When thou comest nigh unto a city to fight against it, then proclaim peace unto it.
    So if they proclaim peace and the city does want peace, then they can, but if they don't then they rejected an offer to live and thus they will be destroyed. They had an option to live and chose not to take and yet by showing mercy to some of the people they are horrible people. :rolleyes: I just love how people fail to learn to read the Bible. The Bible is clear that there were certain cities they could offer peace to and others they were told to utter destroy them, because their sins were judged by God and they were found guilty. When people sin against God the result is always death. The Bible couldn't be more clear on that and yet atheists fail to understand such a simple concept. There are consequences for disobeying God.
     
  14. Loppan Torkel

    Loppan Torkel Deity

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    I'm not sure what to say of this but I appreciate a woman's perspective on the matter. You wouldn't label yourself a feminist? I just can't tell these things any more.

    Is it really worth bringing God and the Bible into this thread?
     
  15. dusters

    dusters Emperor

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    I don't label myself as a feminist. Equal rights for everyone could be a motto i can agree with.
     
  16. IAM

    IAM Emperor

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    From a strictly evolutionary view a serial rapist could be considered successful. Especially if he only raped women that were pro-life and in a comfortable married relationship.

    Our society accepts rapist as long as they have some special skill. Like playing basketball or making money.
     
  17. Tahuti

    Tahuti Writing Deity

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    Basically, society hates career rapists.
     
  18. timtofly

    timtofly One Day

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    He did not do that. Someone else did to prove that the Bible said rape was ok. If someone makes a claim to that effect, they are the one that opened the door. If people want to defend rape, they can use other sources.
     
  19. Hygro

    Hygro soundcloud.com/hygro/

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    Fighting back stops a huge percentage of rape from transpiring, or ending on the rapists' terms, and also helps legally.
     
  20. storealex

    storealex In service of peace

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    A lot of mammals rape. Some species even have inverted spikes on their penises, so that once inserted it's stuck until the male has done his thing.
    It is one of the natural urges that males, from species to species suffer from. Fortunately, morality and society is usually stronger than this urge. But when societies breaks down and mankind turns to its vilest, rape has unfortunately been common.
     

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