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Rat43 CCM - Every Knee Shall Bend

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Succession Games' started by Northern Pike, Sep 24, 2011.

  1. Northern Pike

    Northern Pike Deity

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    This isn’t as complete a rout as some of our endgames, since 12-8 early-tank-versus-rifleman attacks frequently fail, and our production isn’t overwhelming at about twenty ET a turn. Even so, we can take a dozen cities a turn easily now, and the end isn’t far off.

    Taking the last three British cities next turn should be simple. We have units adjacent to Nottingham on our continent; we can rail our way to Leeds, where the rubble tile is fortunately grassland; and fighting our way through a few Korean cities to Portsmouth won’t be hard, although an approach through Glasgow won’t work since we’ll need to use the one desert tile W of Portsmouth. Then it’ll be a question of whether the British have a settler.

    We’re also set up to attack Tatung, on its own small island off China. We have a settler two tiles from Tatung, which should found a city before the attack. This will cause Tatung’s garrison to disappear without the need for an attack, and let us build a garrison of our own with the worker accompanying the settler. Tatung is a hill town, so this refinement will help a lot. We also have five bombers in range, at Case of Identity.

    The rushed steamers we used to land units on Tatung Island may take some punishment, since the Chinese have at least one steam frigate in the area, but they’re empty now.

    We also have a vulnerable Hotchkiss that wasn’t worth covering, outside Newcastle.

    There are still about seventy slow Chinese units roaming around the southern lands we took from China. With our basic attack against them only 12-8, eliminating them isn’t practical. Shifting our own riflemen around to defend against them is sufficient for now. As usual, the AI doesn’t really think of riflemen as attack units and isn’t aggressive with them.

    You’ll have to look all over the active continent for healed attack units; there’s no big stack, unfortunately. The varying requirements of defense, healing, and suppressing resistance have forced us to spread our units around.

    There’s a Great Leader on an airfield near the capital who can rush an improvement first thing next turn—perhaps a hospital in São Paulo.

    Our Great Artists and monks are divided between London, Napata, and Meroë.

    It might be useful to have any future Great Leaders rush dreadnoughts on the active continent, where they could cover the landings we’ll be making on America and other islands. We can’t do this directly, since Leaders aren’t allowed to rush units, but we can rush expensive improvements, change the builds, and then make up the difference with gold.

    Our rail lines to Edinburgh and Newcastle aren’t quite complete, so you’ll probably want to attend to that early next turn.

    We have nine cities that can produce early tanks every turn provided they short-rush via workers: Angkor, Hanoi, Lazapa, Avignon, Tikal, Vientiane, Da Nang, Yazi, and Lagartero. Pain in the Neck can do the same with a double short-rush, a worker and then a Javelin Thrower.

    Four of our cities are in intentional food deficits for more efficient ET production: Avignon, Da Nang, Innsbruck, and Quiriguá. Just keep an eye on them.

    I don’t object to going for domination, if the team would like to win a CCM game that way. It’ll probably involve a fair amount of abandoning conquered cities, and founding native towns for their quick cultural expansions, once the military part of the game is over.
     
  2. Greebley

    Greebley Deity Supporter

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    Ok, I have got it. I will play as much as I can before I go away on Sunday and then pass it on. Work is still a bit heavy so I don't think I will get to 10 turns.

    Expect a post Late Sat or early Sunday.
     
  3. RedKi-rr

    RedKi-rr Prince

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    Guys, it seems that the games 42 and 43 are too easy for you;) It's about middle (60-70%?) of the game, but you already destroy everybody. Probably you should avoid offencive wars before Industrial age aiming for conquest/domination victory?)
     
  4. Northern Pike

    Northern Pike Deity

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    You're probably right about this game. We thought that the mandatory despotism-theocracy-fascism government path might be a significant challenge, but it hasn't mattered much. Still, we didn't know that before we tried it.

    In particular, the revenue loss due to theocracy's tile penalty isn't very significant given the large amount of gold in play in CCM.
     
  5. Civinator

    Civinator Blue Lion Supporter

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    Yes, with the large amount of gold something has to happen in the next version of CCM - and it seems the free to build settlers are not necessairy, too.

    One way could be, to make the maintainance of units much more expensive. To steal maps will also become much more risky and more expensive. Another thought is to skip the free to build workers completely. It´s not normal that every space in the real world is be cultivated - Earth isn´t Coruscant. This also would come closer to my original thought of that mod and it also diminuishes AI Interturn calulation time, as there are not so many changes in the tradenet to take into account.
     
  6. Elephantium

    Elephantium Elephants think that people are cute, like puppies

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    It really seems like it's hard for any AI to grow by very much. In this game, China ate India, but it didn't grow much beyond that. Once the human player gets to a critical mass, victory is pretty much assured against all the (small) AI tribes. We never really see a runaway AI.
     
  7. vmxa

    vmxa Deity

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    Civinator, think real hard about making changes to the mod based on the play of elite players, playing in an SG. The changes you are talking about would make the game of little interest to me, coupled with no armies.

    I would suspect that few players are beating std DG, let alone CCM DG. Understand that SG games are easier than solo games. It has been stated and I agree that the level is about 1.5 difference.
     
  8. LKendter

    LKendter Exterminate, exterminate, exterminate!!! Supporter

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    I agree 100% for Civ3 - doesn't suffer to many path issue that 4 does for SGs.

    Some ways seems like my world map games. The start can be a bear, but even the crappy starts ended in domination wins.
     
  9. Northern Pike

    Northern Pike Deity

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    This I agree with, but like Vmxa I'd be very much against the removal of fast settlers and buildable workers from CCM. Any game of Civ III on a huge map, whether CCM or C3C, has a long technical phase in which the outcome is certain, but there's still a lot of work to do. If CCM's technical phase were made longer and slower the mod would be far less playable and rewarding.
     
  10. CommandoBob

    CommandoBob AbstractArt

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    In C3C, Military Tradition is the tech that can really break the game wide open, with the 3 MP Cavalry. In CCM, Atomic Theory is that tech, with Motorized Settlers. Reaching either tech is a boost to the player's game because they can use the units better than the AI. Neither tech guarentees a win, but they do make defeat a bit harder.

    The 2 MP of the Motorized Settler is very handy for road movement and when used as a combat settler. It makes for faster warfare since the unit can move into enemy territory and build a city on the same turn. Very, very nice.

    If workers cannot be built :)aargh:) then almost every captured city will be razed to produce slaves, especially after railroads come into play. With 24 slaves needed to rail a tile in one turn, a whole lot of them are needed to do more than only rail that one tile a turn. One of the main reasons to build a lot of workers is because so many are needed to put down railroad tracks in a tile.

    However, if workers were to cost population points, that would slow down the player's production of them.
     
  11. ThERat

    ThERat Deity

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    Agree that changes should be only made after very careful consideration. Unless someone expands the way we do, the game can be a real challenge.

    I guess if you play deity with 20 cities max, you really have to watch out. Here, you have a team of warmongers that will crush any opponent :lol:

    Anyway, fine progress with a mere 3 turns. I am impressed NP :goodjob:
     
  12. Civinator

    Civinator Blue Lion Supporter

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    :lol:

    Gentlemen, I have heared your interesting input and thoughts. Population points for workers and settlers could be an interesting idea, so this could be used to "express-starve" newly conquered cities. If you have any suggestions and ideas about improving gameplay in CCM, I´m very interested in your suggestions.
     
  13. CommandoBob

    CommandoBob AbstractArt

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    What makes CCM unique and a challenge are the autoproduced settlers and workers. One of the goals of CCM was to stop the Infinite City Sprawl and getting a new settler every 20 turns is a good way to do that. It does make the First Age a whole lot more exciting and interesting.

    Once Atomic Theory is learned and the player can build settlers, the game becomes more like C3C than CCM. That is, cities become an offensive weapon, either through the use of combat settlers to help capture a city or in building science farms to help research go faster. However, the core is not greatly improved by these new settlers. The present game is an exception to this, but even here the cities placed were placed to fill gaps in the borders around the capital. Otherwse, the cities that have been built are not really useful for producing units.

    So, I think the settlers work just fine the way they are. The Motorized Settlers are a bit pricey, but with 2 movement points they are worth it. If they did cost population points that would slow down their production but not stop it. The need for settlers in a conquest and espcially in a domination game is just too great. Even if the cost were 4 population points and 100 shields, they would still be built.

    Removing the ablilty to build settlers would make a domination victory just about impossible. And probably the Race to the Moon also, since there are so many techs to learn in the game before you get to the Modern Ages. No more science farms.

    Workers, though, even when they can be built by the player, have two issues that really bug me. They take 12 turns to mine a grass tile vs. 6 in C3C. I think this is too long, especially early in the game. Eight or nine turns would be bit easier. I can live with the 12; I just don't like it. True, this is 12 turns for any terrain, but most early mining is done on Bonus Grassland and Hills, where it can be done faster in C3C.

    The other issue is similar (and to me greater): 12 turns to rail a tile, and that is after the speed of workers has been doubled. In CCM the ablity to make railroads comes after the tech that doubles the speed of workers; in C3C the worker speed up and then they rail. Thus, the base number of turns to rail a tile is 24 turns compared to 6 in C3C. To rail a tile in C3C takes twice as long as to road it, so if it only took a CCM worker 5 or even 6 turns to rail a tile (since they would be working twice as fast) that would make sense. Twelve seems needlessly steep.

    One very good reason to spam workers is just to be able to build and maintain a decent rail network. And since these maps are so much larger than C3C maps there is that much more that has to be railed. So the need for more workers than in C3C is quite real. And even with 200 workers, all of them can be kept busy for a very long time.

    If making settlers and worker cost population will remove the Last-Settler-Alive issue, I'm all for it.

    Building your own Settlers and Workers is a nice reward for having survived so long with the autoproudced ones. They speed up the game, and, with the variety of autoproduced land units that come into play at about the same time, make this part of the game more fun. Similar to eating all your vegetables before you can go outside and play again. :D
     
  14. Northern Pike

    Northern Pike Deity

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    Some good thoughts there. :thumbsup:

    One way of summing all this up is that buildable settlers and workers don't affect our chances of winning, since we've always had an unassailable empire much larger than any rival's by the time they become available, but they do make the mechanics of winning faster, which is an unqualified good.

    Another conclusion which emerges is that autoproduced settlers for the player are a definite success, keeping the decisive portion of the game from being an exercise in ICS; but autoproduced settlers for the AI are a more ambiguous case, since they lead to homogeneous enemies all about the same size, so that as soon as we've absorbed three or even two rival civs we're much stronger than any foe and the game is decided. Knowing in advance that there won't be a runaway super-civ in the fog reduces the drama in the game. I'd really like to see a version of CCM in which the player's settlers are autoproduced but the AI's are produced normally, if that's technically possible. I think that would randomize the mod's possibilities in a very interesting way.
     
  15. CommandoBob

    CommandoBob AbstractArt

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    We do tend to take the Conquest part of the Civ Conquest Mod very seriously!

    That would be interesting, in a very good way.

    On our next game, what if we did not build any (or maybe only 10 or so) Motorized Settlers but only used the autoproduced ones? Too restrictive?
     
  16. Northern Pike

    Northern Pike Deity

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    It's not so much a question of restrictiveness, but I've been arguing that that particular change wouldn't affect the (early) period in which we actually win the games at all, but would only protract the foregone-conclusion phase.
     
  17. CommandoBob

    CommandoBob AbstractArt

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    Too true.

    Well, we could only upgrade every other Clan we got. That would make Ancient Times very interesting.

    Or not. I'm just thinking out loud. :crazyeye:
     
  18. vmxa

    vmxa Deity

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    I think NP hit on a factor that I had sort of forgotten about (whats new there), a runaway AI. That use to be a big concern in games, but is not a factor in CCM. They take out a coulple of nations, but are unable to get very large.

    At higher levels they are able to get very large in terms of units, but not in terms of land and towns. I am thinking of all the games were you have two large continents and by the time you invade the other one is pretty much all one civ.

    That made them able to research and to fight your invasion to a degree. Here it will have several civs of more or less equal size and you just take them one at a time. At least in C3C you could go AW and have to fight them all at once. You tend to not do that in CCM as you have no armies.
     
  19. Greebley

    Greebley Deity Supporter

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    The work deadline I had kept slipping. I thought I would be able to play today, but its still not complete. Since I am off tomorrow for the work conference we have been working towards , I need either a swap or a skip as I won't get back until Thursday.

    Sorry about not knowing for a week, but it kept looking almost done and then someone found something else, or someone wanted the progress bar to be a more mauvy shade of pinky russet and could it be changed?
     
  20. Northern Pike

    Northern Pike Deity

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    OK, whether we make it a swap or a skip, that puts CB up. Can you play, CB?

    The batting order now:

    Northern Pike
    Greebley Swapped/Skipped
    CommandoBob UP
    Elephantium
    ThERat
     

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