Rate my dot map!

[theskald]

Please! Thank you.

I started yet another game recently with the aim of snagging a domination victory or at least improving my warmongering ability (I'm a builder and financier that wants to be a conqueror). I'm a flexible man, so I usually start with the following settings (and did so this time):

Map: Shuffle
Size: Large
Climate: Random
Sea Level: Random
Era: Ancient
Speed: Epic
Difficulty: Warlord (what? This is like my fifth or sixth game!)
Aggressive AI is on, I like to see them at each other's throats without my asking.

And always, I set the leader to Random as well. Who do I get? Oh, the suspense!!

Pacal of the Mayans! Pretty sweet for a domination win, I think. Crap UU, but with financial, expansive, and a UB that gives +3 happiness--not to mention starting with mysticism--I figure I'm on my way.

I'll make the rest as short as I can, rather than trying to further dazzle you with the fact that I've been perusing the site for knowledge and strategies. I got a starting position with lots of hills, cows, wheat, a river, and marble just outside the BFC. I start with mining and mysticism, so after a worker I figure why not go for stonehenge? I get it and and Hinduism, pop a settler (a bit too early) and a scout (and them maps of the ocean galore, how exactly these simple tribesmen managed to discover Astronomy is for them to know and laugh about behind our backs) and explore.

Over 1000 years later, no sign of anyone else, and lots of land. Pangaea map, I figure, probably with low sea level and a definite tropical climate, so I go for the Great Wall as well after founding my second city. I snag that, the ToA, and the oracle (I mix up the GP provided by the Parthenon and the ToA, thought I was getting more Prophet points, doh!) By about 2000 BC my third city is founded and I FINALLY start meeting people. First Mansa Musa, then Zara Yaqob, then I find Bismarck and Joao II.

It is now around 1600 BC. I have all of the early techs except Sailing (and Buddhism, but whatever) The oracle netted me Code of Laws to support what will be a desperate struggle for land with that jerk Joao. Anyway,sorry! I ramble! Onto the (hastily constructed) dot map!(spoiler tags for width)

Spoiler :

Larger version here.

Allow me to explain my reasoning here. I am running 100% deficit research and only producing 15 /turn. I am still staying competitive ranking at 3 according to a recent popup, I suspect this is because there's a lot of jungle to clear and no one has Iron working yet. Of the four Civs I have met, three discovered bronze-working after I met them (guess who already had it), and by then I had been enjoying the whip for some time. I had decided a while ago to set Iron working aside and plan to trade someone for it because a)I'm a good distance from jungles and b)I'm a good distance from everyone else. Seeing as I've little money but lots of hammers, I tried to focus on techs that I could trade for and would also get me some nice wonders.

THEREFORE (I apologize again for my verbosity!), I thought A would be a better 4th city than B (city three was for the gold, as you can see I'm hurting on happiness resources until calendar, and I want to enjoy stonehenge first) as it is closer to Mutal and can be cottaged over--minus 3 farms--to start bringing me into economic prosperity, so ah c'n squander it killin' me some Portugese (what's their slur, anyway?). By then I should be able to settle B even if Iron working wasn't yet in my grasp. I already have a settler heading for A. C because I'm a cautious panzy who doesn't want to settle too far out and D to give me some kind of foothold near Joao because the little bugger just loves to REX.

Ora basta! Grazie mille, tutti! Thank you if you've read this far, trudging through these words like a castaway through a desert, only to find me at the edge asking you for help! Even if you just took a quick glance at the map, I'm sure you have some critiques. So there you have it, RATE MY DOT MAP!

 

[DaveMcW]

Good
You are doing a great job of claiming land resources.

Bad
You totally ignored sea resources.
You aren't using enough floodplains. 3 floodplains = one food resource.

 

[OTAKUjbski]

Specifically in the case of B & C, I'd make them one city 3S of B (in the sliver between B & C. You'd grab 3 Deserts , but you'd have 8 Flood Plains consolidated into one city, which would make for some great Cottaging.

 

[Andvare]

ANy reason for that pig-copper city not claiming those two other spices?

Otherwise, what Dave said.

 

[OTAKUjbski]

ANy reason for that pig-copper city not claiming those two other spices?

Otherwise, what Dave said.

I thought about that, too, but I later agreed with his placement of the Spicy Copper Pig. 1S would trade Grassland and Grassland Hills for Plains, Mountains and Tundra.

Those 2 extra Spice are only good for trading -- so it's not a big deal to wait, IMO, since his borders will likely have popped out to that size by Calendar.

 

[Andvare]

I thought about that, too, but I later agreed with his placement of the Spicy Copper Pig. 1S would trade Grassland and Grassland Hills for Plains, Mountains and Tundra.

Those 2 extra Spice are only good for trading -- so it's not a big deal to wait, IMO, since his borders will likely have popped out to that size by Calendar.

+0/+1 +1/+3 only good for trading?

The plains will become 2 1 3 , or one better than a coastal square with lighthouse and Moai statue.
The grassland will be 3 3 . It's a non-developing healthy cottaged floodplain upgraded once. While Spices are not goldmines or pigs, they are great. Better than silk or rice IMHO. Would you do it if it was wine? Same bonus. I would.
It does trade grassland and grass-hill for mountain, tundra-hill and a plain, which is bad, but for such an early city, where the last three tiles aren't used in a very long time, it's not really that big a deal. +6 can be (or a diamond mine with added food).

 

[theskald]

ANy reason for that pig-copper city not claiming those two other spices?

Otherwise, what Dave said.

Yes, I planned on building another city to grab the whale and at the time I thought there would be more room down there, but I still think a city down there would make a decent backfill spot.

As to sea resources, I didn't see how I could have grabbed the fish and still have the gold/horse/wheat spot I wanted. In retrospect I could have had a couple of costal cities down there and claimed the gold with another if I were a little more patient, but I'm not Besides, this is clearly not a map with an abundance of ocean and to expand towards my competitors means land all the way, and on top of that there aren't many seafood resources and none in remotely decent spots. I definitely see your point about the floodplains, though, I'll need to move B and C around a bit to see if I can get more out of that land.

Would it be worth it, you think, to throw in some doomed-to-small-town cities along the coast just to get those seafood resources? Again I really don't see why they would play a major role here so you're absolutely right, I deliberately ignored them.

 

[Andvare]

I must admit, I missed the whale. Does make a filler city down there viable.

Seafood will allow you to get larger cities (with hereditary rule, love that civic early) and will allow you to more effectively use those floodplains. Not an immediate priority, but still something to plan for.

A city 2W 1SW from what I expect is your capital would make a decent city (clams, fish and cow, though the cow is stolen). This would also claim the two seafood resources so far on the map that you can use.

Going for many coastal cities can be wise, depending on the map. And with shuffle, you never knows what you get. (Glighthouse + astronomy = profit)

 

[theskald]

I must admit, I missed the whale. Does make a filler city down there viable.

Seafood will allow you to get larger cities (with hereditary rule, love that civic early) and will allow you to more effectively use those floodplains. Not an immediate priority, but still something to plan for.

A city 2W 1SW from what I expect is your capital would make a decent city (clams, fish and cow, though the cow is stolen). This would also claim the two seafood resources so far on the map that you can use.

Going for many coastal cities can be wise, depending on the map. And with shuffle, you never knows what you get. (Glighthouse + astronomy = profit)

Oh believe me, there are few wonders I love more than the Great Lighthouse, but I didn't feel I could get the most out of it this time. I may be wrong, but It wasn't looking good for the GL and it's an early one so I didn't have time to build it on the off-chance that all this dry land is a cruel ruse by the map generator. Still, I want domination, so if the sea-monkey Joao builds it I could always take it. And sorry about that whale, didn't get the bubble in the shot.

And if by west you mean east, that sounds like a fine city to me.

Oh, and one other thing I forgot to mention is that I was planning to have the Expansive trait pick up some of the slack healthwise, and since construction is needed for my UB and Cats, I get to build Aqueducts anyway. I'm honestly more concerned about happiness and maintenance costs. Good thing I, too, love hereditary rule!

Now please excuse me while I fumble around with this map...

 

[OTAKUjbski]

A city 2W 1SW from what I expect is your capital would make a decent city (clams, fish and cow, though the cow is stolen). This would also claim the two seafood resources so far on the map that you can use.

(yes, east )

The plains will become 2 1 3 , or one better than a coastal square with lighthouse and Moai statue.
The grassland will be 3 2 . It's a non-developing healthy cottaged floodplain upgraded once. While Spices are not goldmines or pigs, they are great. Better than silk or rice IMHO. Would you do it if it was wine? Same bonus. I would.
It does trade grassland and grass-hill for mountain, tundra-hill and a plain, which is bad, but for such an early city, where the last three tiles aren't used in a very long time, it's not really that big a deal. +6 can be (or a diamond mine with added food).

Hmm .. maybe I shoulda kept disagreeing with the placement the first time around.

Excluding non-self-sustaining and 'wasted' tiles, your placement exchanges 1 Grassland and 3 Grassland Hills for 1 Grassland Spice, 1 Plains Spice, 1 non-Irrigable Plains (which is supported by the Grassland Spice gained).

Because of the relative lack of food, the Grassland Hills would most likely have a Windmill. So excluding whatever tile improvements eventually ended up on the Grassland and Plains, I guess that's:

3 , 3 -vs- 2 , 7 .

/doh ... you're right

 

[theskald]

(yes, east )



Hmm .. maybe I shoulda kept disagreeing with the placement the first time around.

Excluding non-self-sustaining and 'wasted' tiles, your placement exchanges 1 Grassland and 3 Grassland Hills for 1 Grassland Spice, 1 Plains Spice, 1 non-Irrigable Plains (which is supported by the Grassland Spice gained).

Because of the relative lack of food, the Grassland Hills would most likely have a Windmill. So excluding whatever tile improvements eventually ended up on the Grassland and Plains, I guess that's:

3 , 3 -vs- 2 , 7 .

/doh ... you're right

.../doh seconded, and that would have given me more room for expansion to the north. On the other hand, it does make my barely feasible whale city even less appealing. Ugh, MATH D:

 

[Bleys]

Bad
You totally ignored sea resources.
You aren't using enough floodplains. 3 floodplains = one food resource.

I agree here. I generally START my dotmapping ideas with the coastal resources, grabbing as many as I can, and work in from there.

Floodplains are such strong tiles, as well. I go out of my way to: a) avoid settling on one or I lose it, and b) using every single one in my area somewhere in a city. That isnt always possible, as wherever there are FPs, there is desert nearby, but in the first 2/3s of the game, you will only use up to 10-12 tiles per city anyway. Late game FP cities can always run specialists if you run out of workable tiles.

 

[Incan Emperor]

I first thought Yikes! How is he planning to claim all that land? He is not even Imp nor Cre!

Then I realized the difficulty you are playing, trust me unless you are the type of guy who quits a playing a tiltle all together just cause you lost a few matches, you may want to start playing Noble, atleast, otherwise you will only be fooling yourself, pampering to your delights and getting some nasty vices.

Its harder getting used to the normal/harder levels once you started playing with the kindergardeners than throwing yourself to the wolves outright.

 

[theskald]

I've rethought some of my placements based on the suggestions you've made. I'm hesitant to move A or B, I really like them where they are, but I think C is in a better place (though it's left behind a ghost of it's former self as I'm not sure how else to fill the gap).

Spoiler :

Larger version.

As to the gaps, I'm really not sure ow to handle those and I'm hoping Iron will pop up there to justify a city. Otherwise, I'll have to take what I can get, unless there are better locations for existing sites that would open up some more room without loosing out on good real-estate themselves that I'm not seeing. I kind of regret the placement of city 3, but nothing I can do about that now.

Any words of wisdom on this latest permutation?

 

[Incan Emperor]

TBH this is fine on the lower difficulties, since what you want is good cities only and leaving a TON of gaps is no big deal, and also like this you deny the AI land, but in the mid/higher difficulties this would be a pretty bad dotmap, maintenance would kill you, so would health, so would the barbarians and ultimately an opportunistic AI, in this type of map with apparently no chokepoints you would be better off claiming a few close and tight cities, five or six at most, hopefully claiming a metal and horses and build up an army, DoW on the most advanced/least powerful/least popular AI and claim your land by the Sword.

 

[theskald]

I first thought Yikes! How is he planning to claim all that land? He is not even Imp nor Cre!

Then I realized the difficulty you are playing, trust me unless you are the type of guy who quits a playing a tiltle all together just cause you lost a few matches, you may want to start playing Noble, atleast, otherwise you will only be fooling yourself, pampering to your delights and getting some nasty vices.

Its harder getting used to the normal/harder levels once you started playing with the kindergardeners than throwing yourself to the wolves outright.

Give myself a baptismal, eh? I probably should, once I'm a more competent warmonger, but I honestly wasn't planing on getting all of that without a fight. This is meant to be a long-term expansion strategy, as I want to focus on Bismarck and have no doubt that Joao will sneak up on me while I'm busy there. I just need to know ahead of time where I do want a city and where I don't. If he happens to place a city right on a spot I have been eying, who am I to look a gift horse in the mouth?

But back to what you said about going up a level, like I said I'm great with economy and the other peaceful stuff but my warring needs a lot of work. Early war is, as you suggest, child's play, but I become a little disoriented as mid-game rolls around, and I suspect it has something to do with not thinking far enough ahead. I imagine that if I intend to slaughter Joao from the start I can keep that in the back of my mind and make sure I'm prepared even while I attack Germany. It all sounds very neat and tidy but It still takes me far too long to take out one measly civilization!

I agree here. I generally START my dotmapping ideas with the coastal resources, grabbing as many as I can, and work in from there.

Floodplains are such strong tiles, as well. I go out of my way to: a) avoid settling on one or I lose it, and b) using every single one in my area somewhere in a city. That isnt always possible, as wherever there are FPs, there is desert nearby, but in the first 2/3s of the game, you will only use up to 10-12 tiles per city anyway. Late game FP cities can always run specialists if you run out of workable tiles.

As I said before I really don't get why they are so important on a map like this, could you please explain it to me? I'm just not seeing it.

TBH this is fine on the lower difficulties, since what you want is good cities only and leaving a TON of gaps is no big deal, and also like this you deny the AI land, but in the mid/higher difficulties this would be a pretty bad dotmap, maintenance would kill you, so would health, so would the barbarians and ultimately an opportunistic AI, in this type of map with apparently no chokepoints you would be better off claiming a few close and tight cities, five or six at most, hopefully claiming a metal and horses and build up an army, DoW on the most advanced/least powerful/least popular AI and claim your land by the Sword.

That's probably what I'd do if there was anything worth spit right next to me

 

[Incan Emperor]

Coastal cities are great for a few reasons IE. You NEED to build a navy. Next water based resources are richer, there multiplier building comes relatively early (Harbor), and are harder to pillage, and MOST importantly, on the mid/higer levels you will be cramped up, Coastal cities effectively raise the number of tiles you can work.

 

[GoodGame]

I think there are many ways to slice this orange, and it shows any old group of 3 resources in a big cross is worthwhile. But on top of that you should think about which big cross fits the immediate
strategic goal of your empire. Like if you want one more production city churning out military units and settler/workers, 'D' (rice, horse, cow) would be my immediate choice, though more hills than mountains would be prefered.

But for a cottage city, to get started on a money town, I might take your 'B' location, and center it two tiles south. That'd keep the copper and sacrifice one calendar resource for a larger selection of flood plain tiles (perfect for
fast growing some cottages, and could even farm a few first, then convert the flood plain farms to cottage later). That would be a money maker quickly, though only two bonus resources.

'H', or 1 tile NW from H would be a great city for much later on assuming there were some hills to mine in that. A small army of workers with Iron Working, and judicious tile development (inch it up 1 farm, 1 mine at a time) to bring up the city, and then convert to cottages, mines, and plantations. That'd be at least two food bonuses, and 3 plantations, and probably lots of grassland underneath the jungle.

I wouldn't fret about coastal cities. It's usually you sacrifice either coastal cities, or optimal interior cities. If you goal is financial through coastal trade routes (e.g. Great lighthouse+Temple Artemis+ coastal UB) then you can't have optimal interior cities. If your goal is financial through optimal plantations and cottages (city has enough food to cottage heavily), then treat any unused coast within the big cross as just another mountain. Three mountains or unused coast won't kill the city if it's otherwise rich in food and bonuses.

A key thing to consider is that although coastal placement allows easier space-fitting of cities, it also means more overlap of cities overal, more mediocre cities, and more mainenance cost per city. Definitely a few cities for building a navy is a good idea, to keep invasion fleets out.

 

[Mattimeo]

Pacal of the Mayans ... Crap UU

Incorrect. I find Holkans rather good for early fights, as they dominate archers.

 

[Andvare]

And if by west you mean east, that sounds like a fine city to me.

Emm, yes, east...


Oh, and I wouldn't worry about gaps (don't mind the gap) until you run out of quality sites. And then only if you cannot take quality sites from the cold dead hands of your enemy.