RB19 - True Cultural Challenge

[Compromise]

I've just been thinking a little bit about where to put the Hermitage. Medina and Mecca both have great long-term culture-generating potential since they have so many shields (err...hammers!). So, I think they'll be getting their +50% buildings up faster than Damascus. If we want to keep the cities more even, I think we might want the Hermitage in Damascus. If we want to get the most culture out of the Hermitage, then maybe Mecca or Medina.

Right now, Mecca, Medina and Damascus have 79, 75 (with only 2 Artist-specialists), and 86 (with 2 settled Artists and 2 Great Library Scientists) base culture respectively.

Since Medina will often have more artist specialists and because it can build it quickly--and because I like the idea of maximizing the benefit of the culture bonus--I say Medina for the Hermitage.

 

[Garath]

OK, I see it. Unfortunately I can't actually tell you when I'll be able to play since I don't know yet, but it will be done in time. I like Mecca for the Taj Mahal, not more whipping in Medina (or probably the other two either) and getting us some military. Still.

I'll get us into Free Speech and Free whateverelseweget, certainly. I am uncertain re Great Artists, leaning towards settling another one or two yet as being efficient, but I doubt there'll be one on my turns so we have more discussion time yet.

I would comment more on these things, but it seems like it's already been said. I've been relatively busy recently, and haven't seen most of the discussions before they were over. One point to note, though, is that putting Hermitage in Medina means we can't get the Globe Theatre there, so we need to be more sure that's not going to stop us running as many artists as we want before we decide on that.

Tech and resource trades noted. I'll get on it.

Garath

 

[Qwack]

I dont think Globe Theater is really important here as the food in every city wont really allow us to go way above what our happiness limit allows.

The only benefit I can see in terms of Globe Theater right now is whipping without the penalty.. And I dotn think we are going to go whip crazy in any of our cities anyways, since we want them to be larger now. I think right now the 300 production which is required for Globe will be better used on cathedrals and other wonders.

 

[Compromise]

The point about Globe in Medina is a good one, actually. Our happiness situation is good enough that probably the biggest concern is if we want to do some drafting. But I see that as an emergency situation. I guess in the emergency, we won't be worrying about optimizing tile usage anyway...

 

[mihau]

Delurk:
I am strongly for settling GA:
1. U still have 150+ turns to go,
2. maybe even 250+ if a war happens
3. U want to expand Your bordes sooner than later


I would reccomend U to consider picking a strategy (I don't remember how many culturepoints(cpts) does the GW give in Your game speed. I leave it as 'GWcpts'. For epicspeed it is 6000cpt):

1) Making 2 cities ahead with ctps, and 1 pushed back ON PURPOSE.
desired_push_back = GWcpts * number_of_GAs

2) Making 1 city ahead with ctps, and 2 pushed back ON PURPOSE
desired_push_back = GWcpts * number_of_GAs / 2

Making all 3 cities equal in ctps don't make sense if U intend to have GA for GW in the end. U need to predict how many GA U will have in the end. It can be difficult since U can't predict what GP will pop. Variant 1) is more secure (I have used it with 2 GA expected in epic 3).
For this game I would propose a variant 2) with Medina being pushed back and 2 production cities onforeward. I think U can expect 3 GA (Medina!) in the end and use them: 2 for Medina and one for the other city.

But be careful: 3 GA means that some of them (1-2) will be waiting for a long time (maybe GA would produce more cpts while settled) ==> I would consider settling (not secure -> check Medina GA % production).

Just to summarise:consider leaving 1-2 city PUSHED BACK in culture for GWing later.

BWT: dont forget about SoL and Eiffle and Biology (more food = more Artists in the city)

Lurk: on.

 

[Compromise]

Feeling...weak. Real life boring....

Must have...injection...of cultural expansion.... Weekend approaching....

Must...must trade fish to Qin.... Must work on...Taj Mahal.

Must...must...m.......

 

[Garath]

I've played, report up in a bit. Everything was fine, got 6-7 techs in trade, started Hermitage and Taj, got us into a good civics, etc.

 

[Qwack]

Sounds good Garath.

 

[Garath]

First, apologies for uncropped images, but this isn't my computer and I don't have much time. Anyway, on with the report:

So, I had quite a lot of things to do on the inherited turn, many suggestions had been made:

I changed Medina to Hermitage, due in 19 after switching it to a fairly high shield configuration. Similarly I switched Mecca to high shields as well, finishing off a Mosque before starting Taj Mahal.

I traded Music and Divine Right to Cyrus, since they were outdated, for Engineering and Optics. Unfortunately Qin then would no longer trade Guilds with us, since that trade put us over his WFYABTA limit. I traded our Fish for his Gold, though, good to keep him happy with our military state.

Tech-wise, I agree with the choice of Printing Press, since it's on the way to both Democracy for the Statue of Liberty and Rifling, since our military really does need an update.

Then I hit end turn.

1505: Kufah finished one whipped temple, and started another. I switched, of course, to Free Speech and Free Religion. I left slavery in place, since I could see more whips coming up.

1510: Our culture pushes even more strongly against Hamburg, leaving it a lone outpost in a full column of our culture around it. I whipped a temple in Najran, with plenty of happiness there.

1515: Nothing happened.

1520: Hatty, our last opponent, met us with a Caravel. Her initial response wasn't very favourable, apparently we've traded with her worst enemy or sopething, but after I gave her Divine Right for Calendar, 110g and her World Map (worth a lot, since it gave us the other entire continent) they improved somewhat from fair and forthright trade. I couldn't afford her price for Guilds, though, and don't really want to trade with her too much, since she's the highest in score at the moment. She's the founder of Judaism, the religion of the entire other continent.

Kufah whipped again for a temple, as is Essen. I'm not paying much attention to whipping them again within the previous whip memory, we've got a *lot* of spare happiness in most cities and I think we may well be out of Slavery for good soon enough anyway.

I paid Cyrus for Guilds instead, since the techs he was asking (Philosophy and Paper) were rather more outdated.

1525: Mecca finished the Mosque and started Taj Mahal, due in some 20 or so. I figure there are a few last forests worth chopping to speed that one up.

Damascus hit the 5000 culture mark at last, ready to put even more pressure on Hamburg. It's now stagnant at size 14, one past the health cap and already working all the good tiles it has right now, since we *still* have only 3 workers.

1530: Banking from Julius for Philosophy and a little cash, quite the bargain there. Having Mercantilism, and 5 turns since the last revolution, I switched us into Caste System and Mercantilism, for the extra Artists in our three major cities. I put scientists in all the others, since our tech rate is still suffering somewhat. Najran finished a temple, and started a Work Boat for the whales, which are now in our borders.

Nothing for the next couple of turns

1545: Damascus finishes Mandir, starts last Monastery.
Hamburg falls to 49%!

1550: Hatty completes Versailles, evidently with a Great Engineer! Good thing we weren't really trying for that one anyway, or my trade would have been rather weedful. Munich also down to 49% on this turn, both of those cities are falling by a percentage point or so per turn now that all of our big three are past 5000 culture.

I bought Gunpowder and a hefty wad of cash from Caesar for Education this turn, since he's still behind many other people.
Printing Press is coming in next turn, I recommend continuing with Constitution (although Qin has that if we think we can get it from him) and Democracy next.

Civic swap is available again next turn if you want to go back to Slavery for a bit, there are projects that could be whipped. On the other hand, the GPP from Medina is pretty nice at the moment.

GPs are due in Mecca (3 turns) and Medina (9 turns). Both are slightly odds-on to be Artists, but neither nearly as much as I would have liked. Both are on high production right now to build culture, though, so I don't really want to run any more artists right this minute.

Damascus, on the other hand, is about to finish its last available culture for the moment on the next turn, and so could build infrastructure (or even miltary!) for a little while now.

Mecca: 8393 + 258/turn
Medina: 6536 + 174/turn
Damascus: 6174 + 267/turn

Sullla is up. Have fun!

Garath

 

[Sullla]

Looking good, looking good.

Ordinarily, I would wait for a little wait before playing to give everyone a chance to comment on the save, BUT I am leaving to go away for the weekend in a matter of hours, so it's now or never to play my turns in prompt fashion.

I choose now!

 

[Compromise]

Nice work Garath! Looking forward to seeing Sullla's turnset soon.

I sure hope that German stack doesn't come looking for us when we convert the Hamburgers!

 

[Sullla]

(0) 1550AD Load up the game and get started. Mecca is in starvation and running a Citizen specialist?! That has to be the result of a misclick of some sort, but in any case I fix it. The city is also still only size 12, so I guess everyone has continued to run max shields over the last couple turnsets... Well, that's not good, but we have to run max shields while pursuing Taj. Nothing to be done about it.

On the plus side, Mecca is up to 250 culture per turn, with only 2 cathedrals! We should be able to get it over 500 culture/turn by game's end. Medina looks good, Damascus needs some more irrigation for growth. Other cities look to have been whipped pretty hard at the moment, I'll have to give them another 5 turns of reprieve (at least) before swapping to Slavery. Kufah is EXTREMELY unhappy from slaving, and we can't whip it for another 25 or so turns without further penalty. I can't possibly believe that it needed to get missionaries out that badly... I'd like to get some more religious spread on my turn, but my hands are pretty tied with all of the long whipping penalties at the moment.

Everything looks good diplomatically at the moment, but I plan to keep an eye on it.

(1) 1555AD Printing Press comes in, I decide to go with Replaceable Parts next (over Constitution) because we have TONS of forests, and lumbermills will help us out immensely. Due in 8 turns at 100% science (time to use up that treasury that's burning a hole in our pockets!) As part of our upcoming need for more workers, I have Damascus start a WORKER. Yes, we still only have three workers right now, and we haven't trained any since BC years. I guess if you want another worker in a SG, you have to do it yourself! Ask Qin for 220g "could you spare this for a good friend", and since we have such good relations, he gives it to us! That will pay for 4 turns of max science!

(2) 1560AD Forest chop at Essen gets us enough shields to finish the Christian temple there. That gets us to 6 temples for that religion, so we can build another Christian cathedral down the road. The team as a whole should think about where to put it. (Remember, that's the one cathedral we build at double speed.)

(3) 1565AD Tokugawa DEMANDS Theology from us. Since that's an assbackwards tech, I go ahead and give it to him. Toku is backwards, as usual. His AI personality makes him a perennial loser.

Pop an Artist in Mecca!

Now... do we use him for a Great Work, or merge him as a specialist? According to the math that others have done, it's still better to merge as a superspecialist, but it has to be done NOW, not in 7 more turns after discussing with everyone. Where to put him? Damascus has risen to become top culture producer by virtue of two Artists and two cathedrals. I think that Medina would actually be the best place, since it's lagging behind in culture (yes, I'm aware that Hermitage will be done there shortly). Since I'm the only one playing these turns, Medina it is! Hope it's the right decision.

In other news, Damascus finishes worker and starts another one. That will take us to 5, which I think will be a good number for our small civ.

(4) 1570AD Najran finishes work boat for our whales, starts a Buddhist monastery. I'm going to try and set up Essen to be a producer of Islamic missionaries, Najran for Buddhist missionaries. Hope that makes sense. (I don't see all that much value in them building markets/banks at this point.) Realize too late that whale-city is building a granary before a lighthouse - oops! Someone made a mistake there. Lighthouse has to come first to get the 2-food tiles in play. I make the swap, but no progress will be achieved until we go back to Slavery again. Merge Artist into Medina.

(5) 1575AD Damascus finishes second worker, let's have our Confucian Holy City squeeze out a bank at the moment while it's between culture projects. I set it to max growth (finally!) which it turns out is 2 food/turn. Heh. Let's just say we will REALLY benefit from Biology.

 

[Sullla]

(6) 1580AD Qin finishes Taj and launches a Golden Age. It has to have been via a Great Engineer, because he only recently got Nationalism and even an Industrious leader can't build a wonder THAT fast. (Qin does not have marble, by the way.) We were 10 turns away. Well, them's the breaks, folks. At least we'll get a nice cash payment. Mecca swaps to Hindu missionaries, we need to get that religion into Medina and Damascus ASAP (because Scientific Method is coming up on the horizon, at which point in time we'll lose the ability to construct monasteries). Mecca at least finally is on max FOOD!

Our culture has stolen ANOTHER wines from Bismarck. (No trading possibilities at the moment, but post-Astronomy we should be able to do something with it.) Hamburg is really in trouble now! I'll show a photo at the end of my turnset. Sell Divine Right @5th to Qin for 220g, since most of the other civs had it already (only irrelevant Toku and Bis were missing it.)

(7) 1585AD Work on Taj gets converted into 417g, not the prize we wanted... Horses for wines deal to Bismarck gets canceled, because we now have all of his wines! Bis only has 1gpt available, so I do not sell them back to him. He can just live with it. Whales hooked up at Khaurasan, but man o man is that city growing slowly. We won't be able to whip the lighthouse there for ages yet either.

(8) 1590AD Hatty offers Open Borders; I decline for now - we can revisit that decision post-Astronomy. I think that Hatty is the worst enemy of some of the civs on our continent though, so be careful. I put Basra on a Hindu monastery, so that it can take the same function as Essen/Islam and Najran/Buddhism. Hope that isn't too hard to remember!

The odds break against us at Medina and we get another Great Prophet (Artist odds were about 70%). Still, it was 50/50 at Mecca this turnset, so altogether about what you'd expect. The only possible use for him is to build our last shrine, the Islamic one:

Of course, this will FURTHER contaminate the pool of Artists at Medina, but what else are we going to do with this guy? That's still 4 base culture/turn there! An Islamic missionary fails to spread the word at Damascus, so I order up another one from Mecca. Gotta keep trying!

(9) 1595AD Replaceable Parts discovered. I think we should head for Astronomy next, on our way to Biology, but I'll pause to see what the others think and run 0% science for one turn first. Constitution for Representation LOOKS good, but we actually are getting much more value out of Hereditary Rule. And we should actually stay AWAY from Democracy (and yucky Emancipation) for as long as the AI civs will let us, I think. Anyway... we should discuss where we want to go next on the tree. But for my money, the best culture-producers lie down the Scientific Method branch of the tree.

Hermitage completes in Medina, bringing it up to about 300 culture/turn, which is about where our other cities are. City starts on Buddhist missionary - we must get those religions into Mecca and Damascus soon, before discovering Scientific Method!

(10) 1600AD Mecca produces an Islamic missionary and sends him to Damascus - this time we succeed! Now Mecca goes onto a Hindu missionary for Medina; that's the only religion Medina is missing. So to summarize:

Mecca: 10913 culture, +252/turn (missing Buddhism)
Medina: 8577 culture, +297/turn (missing Hinduism)
Damascus: 8898 culture, +276/turn (missing Buddhism)
All cities +100% culture from buildings (2 cathedrals in Mecca/Damascus, Hermitage in Medina)

Let's get those lumbermills up and running, finish up the last few religions in our Big Three cities (with the associated temples/monasteries) and then push up the tree to Biology. We can revolt to Slavery whenever we want, but for the moment I held off, because I didn't see any immediate whips. Several cities still have lengthy whip duration unhappiness issues...

The German culture in both Hamburg and Munich is dropping like a stone, but as you can see, the AI has piled a TON of units into both to reduce the flip chances. Sirian and I both feel it's too hard to flip cities in Civ4... well this will be a good test of that! I still think Munich will go down eventually, but it might take longer than we've been thinking. Oh well.

Blake is up next. I'll see everyone again on Monday.

 

[Sullla]

Whoops. Guess I better include the save file too!

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads12/RB19-AD-1600.Civ4SavedGame

 

[Compromise]

Two turnsets in a single day, very cool! Nice work Garath and Sullla.

Too bad about the Taj. I still think we're in good shape, though.

I'm going to claim responsibility for the weed-induced Granary start down in Khurasan. I neglected to change that after I noticed that the tundra forests were gone. Even then, it would have been smarter to build the Lighthouse first. Good thing I only played 5 turns that turnset.

Looking at the save, I have just a couple comments.

In 4 turns when Medina grows, will we switch to running 5 artists there?

Should we use priests instead of scientists for our free specialists in Kufah, Najran and Basra? The hammers might do us more good than the science while we're trying to build up religious infrastructure.

Kufah's working unimproved grasslands, but I see a worker is on the case.

How about cancelling the Fish for Gold deal to Qin and instead trade our Fish to him for his 9 gold-per-turn? All our cities are quite happy right now.

Those German stop-the-flip stacks are huge!

 

[Blake]

I'm not sure if I'll be able to play within 72 hours... in short I'm quite a distance from my CIV computer, in a fair bit of pain and might need to take a couple of days to recuperate before driving home... so I think it would be best to skip me or at least for Qwack to play before me if he gets the chance.

The turnsets look good.

 

[Compromise]

Okay Qwack, you then me. My thinking is that we continue to push religion/culture so that it's okay to research Scientific Method. Then, we've got to get a decent defense in order.

I do think 9gpt is better for us than a gold resource (though that gives us 2 happy with forges) from Qin.

Hope you are better soon, Blake. Good luck.

 

[ruff_hi]

Anyways, binary research at this moment gives us 91 research and 70 beakers per turn while 50% gave us 88 and 70, pretty obvious which one is better eh . It would have given us more if we had more variety of tiles to switch and use multiples of 4 research. Ah well.

Sorry to raise this issue from many pages ago but I thought I knew the answer - turns out I didn't. How do you work out how many beakers you are generating? I can do the gold (F2) but I cannot seem to easily work out the beaker count.

 

[Qwack]

Got it. It will be played in 24 hours, I have another SG to play before but this one should be done by tommorow.

Sorry to raise this issue from many pages ago but I thought I knew the answer - turns out I didn't. How do you work out how many beakers you are generating? I can do the gold (F2) but I cannot seem to easily work out the beaker count.

I usually calculate per 2 turns with my normal city setup. Ill put 0%, then check the gold and beakers output, and then ill put 100%, and check the gold and beakers output, I add them both up for the output per 2 turns on binary. In that situation, I got 91 and and 70, at 50% we were getting 44 and 35 per turn, which turns out to be 88 and 70 in 2 turns. So basically, the difference is 3 beakers per 2 turns with binary on. You can actually make that number even more if you care enough to micromanage every turn and run multiples of 4 beakers in all your cities when your running 100% science, but I dont like doing that too often(unless I have very few cities), so I just check which one yeilds higher and run the one that does. It takes like 10-15 seconds so I dont really consider it micromanagement to an extreme..

 

[ruff_hi]

I usually calculate per 2 turns with my normal city setup. Ill put 0%, then check the gold and beakers output, and then ill put 100%, and check the gold and beakers output, I add them both up for the output per 2 turns on binary.

That sounds like you just look at one city and not across your whole civilization - am I understanding you correctly? One city is easy - info in your city info panels. Gold across your civilization is also easy (F2) but can you get the beaker output across your civilization? If so, how?