RB19 - True Cultural Challenge

Good report there Compromise, for a bit there I thought you were gonna found a new city and gift that to Caesar instead of your holy-shrine city. Polythesim is the way to go, if you guys don's have iron you better figure out a way to get to Feudalism quick :lol: .
 
Congratulations on defending us, Compromise. You were not in an enviable position! We have weathered the storm and have nowhere to go but up at this point. Anyone who underestimates our civ based on the current situation will rue the day when we destroy them with our, umm, culture. :lol:

Absolutely we need to trade for Mediatation and then use the Prophet for Theology. We may need to top off our research for a turn or two, but we almost certainly will get the religion. I would actually go back to NO state religion if we can get Christianity to pop in Kufah, but I WOULD go to Organized Religion. Yes, you can still get the missionary benefit even without having a state religion on hand (you just don't get the buildings boost). Kufah (which should become the Christian holy city) and Damascus together will squeeze Hamburg, and eventually it WILL flip to us. Kufah + Medina might be able to flip Munich too! Hey, it's a thought! :cool:

We also need to found one more city, a fishing city southeast/east of the stone tile, on the end of the peninsula. It will get two grassland tiles and a heck of a lot of water; if there's no food resouce there, we could irrigate the two grasslands and whip it for buildings. Certainly worth founding, and it will get us to six cities. I'd probably cottage Kufah mostly, since we're going to need more commerce and our Big Three (TM) need to be shield-oriented.

For the next thousand or so years, we need to 1) spread all our religions around (we already have three and are about to get a fourth) using Organized Religion missionaries 2) build lots of temples (we're Spiritual! yay!) 3) build cathedrals in the Big Three cities. The extra happiness will boost us past these AI turkeys anyway, and we've got LOTS of health resources. We'll blow past the resource-challenged AI civs in no time.

All this doom and gloom about the tech front - bah! We're just fine. The demographics early on are misleading. :p We need to ditch the research into Iron Working and go whole hog into Literature. Build the Great Library! :D We'll have to discuss where to build National/Heroic Epic for the culture too. (After that, Drama/Music for sure.) Oh, and we have monopolies on both Code of Laws and Alphabet. Garath can almost certainly clean up every tech the AI civs have, especially by giving outdated stuff to Bismarck. We want to try to hold onto Alphabet and give out Code of Laws (which the AI always researches soon). At the very least, we need to get Math IMMEDIATELY and have one of our cities start Hanging Gardens. Maybe have Damascus do Hanging Gardens and Medina do Great Library (?) Let's talk about that briefly before Garath plays. We should be able to get Monarchy too if we trade smartly.

Well, I said a lot. :) Let's get some more feedback about our current direction from the rest of the team.

PS Maybe Sistine's in Mecca a little later? OK, I'm thinking too far ahead! I'm really enjoying this game, can you tell? ;)
 
Basher the lucky chariot :goodjob:.


I think we should get Drama ASAP.
Artists (and Great Artists) are going to be REALLY important so I favor Drama -> Music, hopefully getting the free artist.
edit: Actually we should get both drama and literature and then get music, we get a discount that way.

We should trade Code of Laws around, it seems like the less dangerous tech in the hands of our enemies, we can get mathematics and monarchy for it.
Alphabet monopoly is very much in our favor. No-one trade Alphabet.

Oh something else, I think we should definitely found Islam. Under the circumstancs failing to found Islam would be pretty damn lame. That would be good to do after we get Music. Maybe we can use a 3rd prophet to do the heavy lifting in researching Divine Right.
 
Gaahh. I see that I have a metal addiction. I admit it; that's the first step, right? Of course we should be going for Literature and the Great Library. (Slaps self. Hopes to learn from his betters.)

(Quick note of thanks to Blake for preparing a good defense of the empire.)

The only thing I'd like to add to Sullla's (Okay, how many "L"s are there in Sulla/Sullla?:confused:) building list over the next thousand years is monasteries in our cultural 3 is monasteries. It's early enough that we should get some decent culture from their doubled +2. A +10% to research in Kufah would help too, once it gets cottaged.

My biggest short-term worry (unwarranted?) is an attack from Bismarck. When I last checked relations, he didn't "have enough on our hands" yet, so I don't think he's noticed our military vulnerability. Another good reason--with the hoped-for founding of Christianity in Kufah--to switch to No State Religion.

War distraction led me to delay the alphabet-brokered tech-trading spree. Another tactical error. One day....

Good game!

------

Was just about to cross-post with Blake. Agree with the top tech path prioritization. Homer, come to Arabia!
 
Just a reminder to Garath: you are up currently. I'd hate to have to skip another player, but if I don't hear anything in the next 24 hours, that's what's going to happen. (Come on guys, only on the second go around, and the game is already stalling? Sheesh.)

Sullla
Blake
Quack
Compromise
Garath <<< UP NOW
 
I'm here. As I said earlier, I was away Sunday - Tuesday, but I see it and ought to be able to play tomorrow. Were it not past 2am here I would also be able to read other people's posts more coherently and create some sort of checklist of all the various suggestions for what to do next, but that'll have to wait, since I should really sleep.

Garath
 
Glad to see Garath will take his turn. Now that he mentions it, I do remember that he said he'd be gone. It probably threw things off that I ran my turns so quickly after getting the skip from Qwack.

For me, here's how I'd like to be treated: strictly by the rules. If I haven't responded within 24 hours since the post date of the last turnset post, somebody post a skip message and it's Garath's turn. If I haven't posted a turnset (or a plea for a few hours' extension) within 48:00 of my "got it" post, post a "You're skipped, Compromise" message and move on. I'd rather have the game move on than be sure I've played in every round.

About the next turnset: Garath. First things to do are:

1) Change tech research from IronWorking to Literature. We need the Great Library. (Where to build it, though?) Research plan is to get Drama too before Music, so the latter is cheaper. We do want Homer quickly.
2) Do some tech trading. Don't trade away Alphabet. Trading Cod of Laws should be okay. Should be able get quite a few techs.
3) Be sure to get Meditation in the trades. Then the Great Prophet who just popped in Medina should discover Theology for us and should found Christianity in newly-founded Kufah. (Do we switch to Theocracy? Probably not since we want to spread our religions. Where do we send the free Christian missionary?)
4) Be sure to switch to Organized Religion.

Other ideas are in the recent posts, but these are critical before you even hit "End Turn".
 
So the save is at 25AD? That's not an even turn, so I'll only play 9 and leave it back on track at 250AD. I've got my checklist from the recent posts (thanks Compromise), so off we go:

Inherited Turn (25AD):

I switched immediately to researching Lit, showing at 8 turns but at a large deficit. That's 13 once switched to near-sustainable the next turn, sadly.

Trading with the AIs: They all have Meditation, Monarchy and Iron Working, and Caesar will also trade Mathematics.

With Caesar: Code of Laws gets us both Meditation and Mathematics.
With Bismarck: Code of Laws and Polytheism get us Monarchy and Iron Working.

I did not trade with Qin, as he's up by Currency and Calendar, and not willing to trade either, so I want him to have to find Code of Laws for himself if at all possible to slow him down.

I then immediately used the Prophet to get Theology, which founded Christianity in Kufah as desired. I sent the free missionary to Damascus, since that's the one in the biggest cultural war.

I flipped us to Hereditary Rule as well as Organised Religion, since flipping to No State Religion was easier with a little happiness compensation from HR. I also flipped us to No State.

Medina is finishing the Granary (2 turns) and will then build an Aqueduct until it can best be whipped, and then straight to the Hanging Gardens.

Iron was found by Munich, two diagonal spaces from Kufah, so there are reasonable odds we can take that culturally.

END TURN

50AD: Mecca Library -> Settler. I know missionaries and monasteries are all nice, but Caesar has a settler galley coming down the coast, and this is the only way to beat it to the last spot we want.

75AD: Following the above plan, Medina -> Aqueduct.

100AD: Damascus finishes an archer (for the new city) and goes back to Confucian Temple to help push Hamburg back. Munich's borders expand, so (cultural) force will be necessary to get Iron.

RB19munichexpands.jpg


125AD: The Roman settler galley turns back, making that somewhat easier. Damascus grows to 5, and instead of letting the governer pick another 2/1/0 tile and keep it growing at +3, not all that fast anyway, I pick the 0/4/1 hill and leave it in a great production configuration that it can stay in for ages, growth won't do much for it anyway. We'll need the production for the Great Library, after all.

IT: Bizzy offers us some wines for our spare Horses, which I accept gladly. Anything to mitigate the -3 penalty we've got for close borders already, eh chum?
He'd also discovered Horseback Riding, not that he will trade it or that we want it.

175AD: Parthenon BIDL. Good thing we didn't try for that, then. I'm sure that's not normally built so early either, so maybe we really are facing an industrious civ ahead on tech on another continent with stone and/or marble. Nobody said that this was going to be easy, right?

I whipped off the last bit of Medina's aqueduct, growing back to 5 and starting the Hanging Gardens next turn.

200AD: HG due in 10. Mecca finishes the settler and starts a Confucian missionary, we kinda need to pull our economy back up a little.

225AD: Basra founded out down south of Mecca, with the Stone and a couple of grasslands. Sadly it didn't alleviate the military cost as much as I hoped (yes, we're paying for military. Maybe we coudl afford to disband the warriors?) and so our economy dropped even further in the drink.

Qin gained Metal Casting, which is of course untradeable at the moment, but I'm not sure he has Copper either, so who knows about the Colossus.

250: And the Hanging Gardens got BIDL also. Well, that was quick. The two turns we put in got us 84 gold, at least, so we have enough cash on hand to finish off Literature with the correct timing with the Monastery in Damascus so that it can go straight onto the Great Library in 3 turns.

I debated what to do with Medina for a little, and decided that Chichen Itza while periodically switching out to whip in Monasteries and Temples as the population and happiness become available (leave it at 5, it's got 3 food resources and a granary so it's growing *quickly*) could be an interesting plan. Obviously no turns have been invested yet, though, so if you prefer either a couple of workers (the other thing I was seriously considering) or some Buddhist missionaries there's no loss in doing so.

Mecca has finished on Confucian missionary, currently heading for Medina, and is building another one for Kufah. I think workers after that if Medina hasn't built them, or monasteries if it has since the palace commerce is still providing quite a lot of our science, and the culture doubling won't go amiss. It's got to be the place for the Sistine Chapel once all the higher priorities are done, though.

I'm thinking Lit -> Drama -> Music -> Philosophy from here, probably. Plenty more wonders on that path, and another religion if it doesn't fall elsewhere.

RB19overiew250.jpg


There's our Civ. No tiles fell on my turns, though the cows are down to 51% German and the first ring of Munich is already being pressured sorely.

Sullla is up.

(I don't currently seem to be able to access the upload server to actually put up the screenies I've taken, oddly. Neither of them were vital, though, so we'll live, and attaching the save is fine.)

Garath
 
Who on earth is building all these wonders out from under us? Ghandi? But then our continent probably wouldn't have founded both Buddhism and Hinduism. Roosevelt or Louis are my guesses. (Maybe both?:( )

Little matter.

I glanced at Garath's save. We really do need to up our research rate. The Great Library will help, but I think we need some cottages, especially in Kufah. Can we risk going for Drama before going for Music? It'd make Music cheaper, but might allow that free Great Artist to go to someone else.

It even looks like Kufah might be able to out-culture Munich for control of some Iron! That'd satisfy my metal addiction.
 
I have the save and will play tomorrow. The rate of wonder completion has been shocking, to be honest. All of the wonders are falling at the extreme early range on dates, as soon as I've ever seen them go. We might be in trouble here if we don't get some more culture going soon.

Anyway, any suggestions are welcome. :)
 
Sullla said:
I have the save and will play tomorrow. The rate of wonder completion has been shocking, to be honest. All of the wonders are falling at the extreme early range on dates, as soon as I've ever seen them go. We might be in trouble here if we don't get some more culture going soon.

Anyway, any suggestions are welcome. :)

I think as long as you avoid any more crippling wars you should be fine. Except for The Pyramids and The Parthenon, the wonders you lost haven't been too painful.

Chichen Itza (6 culture/turn) - I would skip it to avoid another source of Prophets, although with Stone you can certainly get it. You did not trade Code of Laws to any Industrial leader and no one else has Alphabet.

Great Library (8 culture/turn) - Inside track due to tech path chosen.

Sistine Chapel (10 culture/turn) - You were first to Theology, so you have a good shot at this one. This is the most important one left. Without Marble I would start on it early!

Angkor Wat (8 culture/turn) - If the Great Library generates a Great Scientist and you lightbulb Philosophy you have the inside track on this one.

Notre Dame (10 culture/turn) - Due to Music beeline you have a great shot at this one. Yummy Great Artist points.

Colossus (6 culture/turn) - Pretty close to 0%.

Versailles (10 culture/turn) - If you follow Blake's advice and found Islam you have a great shot at this one.

Spiral Minaret (10 culture/turn) - Same as above, only you have Stone to help.

Taj Mahal (10 culture/turn) - If you hit Liberalism first and use it to take Nationalism, you have a good shot at this one as well.

Darrell
 
I've done some *very* rough calculations to see what we're looking for here. I'll encapsulate my scribbles in {code} statements so that the spaces line up properly from my text file.

Basically, I'm trying to figure out what kind of base culture (before any bonuses from cathedrals) we're looking to generate in order to hit the cultural victory by a reasonable time.

Assumptions:
- Looking for the average culture over the whole time after 1000AD
- Some buildings will double in culture sooner, some later, some never. (This is why the culture numbers I write below are between the actual and the doubled value.)
- Assume culture bonus of 200% (4 cathedrals or 3+Broadcast Tower)
- Will settle 2 Great Artists per city, and another in each city to culture bomb it (I hope 9 GAs is a conservative estimate)
- Shoot for a cultural victory date of about 1950
- I started from the numbers at 0AD, but they shouldn't be too far off where we are now at 250AD

Begin copied scribbles:

Code:
Need 50,000 culture in each of 3 cities (Mecca, Medina?, Damascus)

In 0AD, have 1400+20cpt, 400+10cpt, 300+10cpt (cpt=culture per turn)

From 0AD, we have 45 turns to 1000AD.

In 1000AD, our top 3 cities will have culture values of roughly: 2300, 900, 800

1000-1950AD: 200 turns at normal speed

Need:  48,000; 49,000; 49,000 more culture per city

Assume 1GA bomb/city

Need: 44,000; 45,000; 45,000 culture in these cities between 1000AD and 1950AD

That's about 225 cpt in each city!

Assume 200% culture boost: 75+200% = 225

So, we need about [U]75 base culture per turn in each city[/U]

To get 75 base culture:
   Religion: 4x1     =  4

   Normal Buildings:
      Temples: 4x1.5 =  6
      Monasteries4x3 = 12
      Castle: 1      =  1
      Library: 4     =  4
      Theater: 3x1.3 =  4
      University: 3  =  3
      -------------------
                       34   from Buildings

   Assume 2 settled Great Artists in each city
         Add 12x2      24
                     ----
                       58   from Buildings and Great Artists

   So, we [U]need about 20cpt/city from wonders[/U]
                      +20  from Wonders
                     ----
                       78 base culture per turn

I'm sure we're not going to have 75 base culture in each city in 1000AD, and I'm sure we'll have more in 1950AD. I'm just looking for a rough idea of what we'll need.

I also don't expect us to have +200% culture in every (any?) city in 1000AD, but with 4, maybe 5, cathedrals in each city plus a Broadcast Tower, we might average that by 1950AD.

In summary, I think we're looking at needing at least 3 Great Artists per city ASAP and about 4 wonders in each of our cities as quickly as we can. That's in addition to getting those religions spread and the cathedrals up and going.

I've also excluded artist specialists, so there's pretty good room for additional emergency culture.

What does it mean for us?

I'm sure we can still pull this off, but I hope we're not distracted by too many more wars.

Sulla and Blake's next turnsets will probably include the last buildings whose culture will meaningfully double.

We do want to get our culture multiplied soon. And Great Artists are pretty darn valuable. I think we might want to at least discuss getting Drama after Music, more for getting the free Great Artist.

I'm roughly valuing the last few great artists at about 5 turns each. (4000 culture = 16 turns x 250cpt, but you need 3 great artists to get that in each city.)

I think Taoism is probably out with our insistence on Lit/Drama/Music, but it would be nice to get Islam!

Well, just some musings.

@ darrelljs: Thanks Darrell, that list of wonders could be a helpful summary for us.
 
I can see no reason for our immediate tech path to NOT be Lit->Drama->Music, as long as no AI has alphabet they can't take Music from us. Now if an AI DOES get Alphabet then it might be an idea to go straight to Music rather than getting both pre-req techs first...
Anyway getting those Theatre's up ASAP is a good thing, they'll double earlier, apply more culture pressure on our neighbours and we can start generating artists.

Great summaries/analysis btw. 1950AD sounds optimistic.

I was also thinking that any Prophet we generate should go towards Divine Right, I'm not sure if it's worth deliberately generating Prophets for, we're sure to get one or more by "accident" anyway.
 
Couple of points: First, it's not the AIs *on our continent* that we're losing wonders to, I'm fairly certain, so who we did or did not trade techs to is of much less relevance. Similarly, it's not them I'm worried about getting Music before us, or any of the coming wonders. We simply must pick up our pace (somehow), as the other continent is clearly getting ahead.

Compromise: Your culture analysis appears to have missed out the effects of the Free Speech civic, which you can be damn sure we'll be in as soon as possible. Especially given that we can also have the Hermitage in one city, a culture bonus of +200% would be extremely shoddy by the time we're really getting going, and we could easily be above +300%, since not using the cultural slider means there's no reason to turn research off, so we should reach broadcast towers. This is good, since we could easily get beaten by a launch if we're only aiming for 1950, we should be at least trying to do a bit better than that.

Garath
 
I agree with Garath in terms of tech path. Getting a free artist going that route along with those obvious cultural tech's + the requirement for those 3 always important wonders (Epics and Great library) sounds like a good plan. I would personally go that way first and than go down the bottom path to get to maceman/knights. I want to atleast use saladins UU in this game, dont really hear about those camel archers much ;).

Good turns garath, the civic changes will help jump-start our economy for now.
 
Lurker's 3 cents about wonder losses:

Take into consideration that whoever built Pyramids probably got G. Eng(s).
 
I'm not worried about a fast launch. Iceage maps are so awful that the AI's will be lucky to launch before 2050AD. Last wide continents iceage map I played (emp difficulty) I won by space race in 2043AD (after a prolonged slugfest, I started in near-tundra), the AI's weren't close to launching.
The hills and plains of iceage does give the AI pretty good production so they can crank out the wonders, but their tech is less than fearsome.
 
Grater said:
I can see no reason for our immediate tech path to NOT be Lit->Drama->Music, as long as no AI has alphabet they can't take Music from us. Now if an AI DOES get Alphabet then it might be an idea to go straight to Music rather than getting both pre-req techs first...
Anyway getting those Theatre's up ASAP is a good thing, they'll double earlier, apply more culture pressure on our neighbours and we can start generating artists.

Great summaries/analysis btw. 1950AD sounds optimistic.

I was also thinking that any Prophet we generate should go towards Divine Right, I'm not sure if it's worth deliberately generating Prophets for, we're sure to get one or more by "accident" anyway.

I'm on the fence about the tech path. Going Drama before Music will give us a cultural sure-thing with theaters. However, we'd be building +1 or +2 religious buildings anyway, so it's less than a +3 cpt gain. Of course, the risk is that we won't get the Music Great Artist (almost always Homer) even if we do go for it, so I guess I don't mind taking the chance and going for Drama first.

I picked 1950AD because I don't think it's reasonable to hope for earlier than that, and because I'm used to worrying about an AI diplomatic victory around then. But that's not Ice Age.

Agreed about the Prophet and Islam. I think we should be shooting for all Great Artists now. Maybe no more wonders in Medina that don't give Artist points?

Garath said:
Compromise: Your culture analysis appears to have missed out the effects of the Free Speech civic, which you can be damn sure we'll be in as soon as possible. Especially given that we can also have the Hermitage in one city, a culture bonus of +200% would be extremely shoddy by the time we're really getting going, and we could easily be above +300%, since not using the cultural slider means there's no reason to turn research off, so we should reach broadcast towers. This is good, since we could easily get beaten by a launch if we're only aiming for 1950, we should be at least trying to do a bit better than that.

You're right, of course. But I figure +200% culture is what we'll be at around halfway from now till 1950AD. We'll be less earlier, more later, so it should roughly (very roughly) balance out. Just wanted to make sure that we're not out of the running already. Also, I did forget to list Free Speech among our assets; thanks for pointing that out.

mihau said:
Take into consideration that whoever built Pyramids probably got G. Eng(s).

Yeah, I'm guessing we've got Mansa over there feeding wonder techs to Roosevelt and Louis. Bastards.

Blake said:
I'm not worried about a fast launch. Iceage maps are so awful that the AI's will be lucky to launch before 2050AD. Last wide continents iceage map I played (emp difficulty) I won by space race in 2043AD (after a prolonged slugfest, I started in near-tundra), the AI's weren't close to launching.
The hills and plains of iceage does give the AI pretty good production so they can crank out the wonders, but their tech is less than fearsome.

I'd forgotten about this being an Ice Age map until I read your post. Maybe we might have competition from a diplomatic vote. Not sure. Most of my games don't get to that point. It's tough to see the AI overcoming our population's vote enough to vote one of them a winner.


Looking forward to Sulla's turnset.
 
Grater said:
The hills and plains of iceage does give the AI pretty good production so they can crank out the wonders, but their tech is less than fearsome.

Lurker's Comment
This (the Iceage map) of course is why you are losing those wonders and why it will be more difficult to generate Great Artists to compensate (less food). The lack of grassland certainly affects the tech pace (slow) as Blake mentioned, but like all games you start out a bit behind tech wise, but catch up half way through the tree (that scenario does not take into account a love fest b/w Mansa, Louis, and FDR with lots of tech trading :lol: ). Anyway it would be boring if it was not gonna be difficult right ;) .
 
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