RB19 - True Cultural Challenge

With Medina: It can pop out monastaries in 3-4 turns from hammers alone and working extra coast gives a significant boost to commerce. With bugged 1 pop for 60 hammer whips, that would be worthwhile, but at the 1:30 exchange rate we are really better off just working the abundant high hammer tiles.

Look at it like this: At 50% research (our break-even point) we get just 32 beakers a turn - that's with the 5 coastal tiles at Medina - now without those 5 coastal workers we'd bring in only 20 beakers a turn. In short, a giant medina increases our research by 50%. I'm tempted to say we should grow Medina even bigger, right up to size 14 or so where it can work ALL the coastal tiles AND run 3 specialists (14 is also Medina's health cap atm and adding 3 chariots would increase the happy to 14). Once a city is at size 14 whipping isn't worthwhile at all (except bugged whips).
So Medina should be grown until it's working every coast tile, every good hammer tile and has 3 specialists (which alternatively can be put on the plains forests).

Overall go easy on the whipping, whipping wont give us any extra commerce, unless it's whipping in libraries or marketplaces (a market is about the only thing I'd consider whipping in at Medina).

Taking a close look at the other cities...

Najran is one city I'm not sure quite what to do with, it has a library now and will soon have a theatre. It has a silver mine but working that will kill growth. I think we should grow it to size 9 at which point it works the deer, the farmed plains, all 5 coastal tiles and finally the silver mine, leaving it basically stagnant at +1 food but bringing in a good amount of commerce. Also all the (non-deer) forest at Najran should be chopped (eventually, anyway), it doesn't have the food surplus to work any of it and the other tundra hill can just be mined (which will definitely kill the food surplus). Note there's no need to improve the tundra river banks, 2-0-1 tiles are NOT worth working (so the same goes with any ocean tiles too, workers on ocean are bad). So Najran really needs no more worker investment until biology (except to chop the forests - good way to get temples).

Basra (the fisholess city) should be left alone to grow until it's working all the coast (or hits the natural happy cap anyway), working the quarry will complete the buildings it needs.

Kufah should be whipped since it has NO production (and it's best to keep it that way, by working only cottages rather than the hill). It should probably be whipped every 10 turns like clockwork. Monastries are good there, it needs to apply cultural pressure and it'll be a good place to whip out missionaries.

Mecca and Damascus should both be treated in much the same way, always work any 1-3-x tiles but don't work the plains hill mines unless a wonder is being built, basically between wonder builds food should be maximized (within reason) so that wonder build speed is maximized. Don't whip either of these cities unless it's a real emergency, whipping them wont improve wonder build speed one bit.



One final thing which I SHOULD have thought of during my turns:
Switch out of organized religion. This will save us 4g/turn and we aren't building any missionaries at the moment nor for the forseeable future and we'll have monastries anyway.
 
lurker comment
Grater Blake ~ :goodjob:

It's a real treat to watch a player of your caliber display the thought processes you put into the game (all of you, really).

viva la SGs
 
The civil service vs. music question intrigues me. Civil service will give you bureaucracy which will give you more commerce = more beakers to complete the researching of music faster. It will also give you more hammers in the capital, and if that is where you are going to build Notre Dame, then that will also complete faster. And then there's the lost turn (anarchy) for switching to bureaucracy to consider.

(Edit - Sistine Chapel to Notre Dame)
 
Completed

I would have personally preferred to go CS before Music, but since the others preferred music first, I went music first. I have noticed that Notre Dame is a wonder the AI's really dont prioritize, and its usually built pretty late. But theres no telling, especially with the early wonder building dates in this game so far.

Anyways, binary research at this moment gives us 91 research and 70 beakers per turn while 50% gave us 88 and 70, pretty obvious which one is better eh :cool: . It would have given us more if we had more variety of tiles to switch and use multiples of 4 research. Ah well.

Overall pretty quiet turns. Great library completes in 720 AD, that will help our research situation a good amount.



Chopped some usseless forests near Mecca to speed up Sistine Chapel. Bismarck demands theology. This was a no-brainer. We have Sistine chapel in 5-6 turns and its impossible for him to beat us to it. The only thing he gets is theocracy which he probably wont switch to anyways. And this may prevent him from considering us as a war opponent, atleast for now. ;) So I gave it to him.



I built a confucion missionary in Damascus and spread it to Kufah. I agree with blake that Kufah should probably be our primary missionary producing center. We should also try to whip 2 pop at one time to get the 2 missionaries from every whip, than run max growth the next 10 turns.

In 860 AD Sistine Chapel done.



Great Prophet is ready to be burnt on something on the last turn of my set. I decided to leave it up to the next person. He gives 1070 out of 1700 beakers for Divine Right, and Divine right will give us another religion.



And the save:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=131405&stc=1&d=1151748908
 
We should probably start considering where to place National Epic and Heroic Epic now. My personal opinion is to place Heroic Epic in Mecca, and National Epic in Damascus(Later on we can combine National Epic with Globe). Damascus at the moment is our best food city, and capital is our best production city. Both Epics will give us Artist points which are useful, and we need to start getting some military cranking, we are falling back again. I think Medina should get Notre Dame unless we feel it cant build it in time.
 
No, National Epic has surely got to go in Medina, with its three food bonuses. That *will* be where we end up running the greatest number of Artists, it can't help but be. I don't think it matters much which one gets Heroic Epic, though.

My point with Medina was not that it shouldn't be growing, but that its growth is *so* fast that it could still be whipping at the same time, for no loss overall. We need to get National Epic in there ASAP, I though that was due to be started 15 turns ago.

Blake: I'm well aware that we could get 60 hammers from whips on a regular basis. Personally, however, I refuse to exploit that bug in the game, and no strategies I suggest or endorse will do so in any way.

Do we have any cottages up yet? I haven't seen any mentioned. Even more important, do we have any more *workers* yet? It's definitely time to go on an economy (growth + workers) and possibly even some military kick, now that round of wonders is done. I suspect that'll take up much of Compromise's and my turns, with the exceptions of Notre Dame and National Epic.

Compromise: I suggest you check the tech situation on getting the game, surely Metal Casting must be available soon, and we want Forges up as soon as we can buy it from someone.

Oh, and there won't be any anarchy switching to Bureaucracy. We're Spiritual, right? Civil Service next after Music is pretty much a given. It would be nice to get Divine Right, sure, but we can't spare the research to finish it off even after the prophet gives us most of it right now, so there's no point using him.

Garath
 
lurker's comment:

Guys, this is a very interesting and a fun read so far. I've never done a cultural victory, and this one is a good chance of learning a lot. Now that you've got the wonders things look a lot better ! Keep it going !

·Imhotep·
 
First of all, we did get both the Great Library and Sistine. :goodjob: Whew! That's an enormous relief. We should celebrate on that one, it was a well-executed team plan playing out across multiple turnsets. :beer:

Let's see, what else... Garath is right, National Epic absolutely goes in Medina. We're going to be generating most of our Great Artists in this game from that city. I'm not sure where we put Heroic Epic, your call on Mecca or Damascus. Whichever one needs it more, probably. We also need to decide where to put Notre Dame; since Damascus has the lowest overall culture, maybe it would be a good idea to put it there as well. (We could also put Notre Dame in Medina for the Great Artist points too, which wouldn't hurt.)

Quack said:
Anyways, binary research at this moment gives us 91 research and 70 beakers per turn while 50% gave us 88 and 70, pretty obvious which one is better eh . It would have given us more if we had more variety of tiles to switch and use multiples of 4 research. Ah well.

This is why you won't see me using the binary research strategy. The savings tend to be rather small, and it completely kills my immersion in the game to swing wildly back and forth from 0% science to 100% science just to avoid rounding errors. To each his own though. :)

I agree that giving out Theology was the right move, as we'd rather avoid war, even with pathetic Bismarck. However, we now really need to do some trading ASAP or we'll get left behind. Currency and Feudalism are both out there and can be easily traded for. Now that our Theology monopoly is broken, we should use that at the very least to get Currency. That will help out our economy enormously. (Get some markets going!) We should also pick up Feudalism as well while we're at it; hopefully some kind of deal can be made.

Do we want to pursue Divine Right next? One thing we could do is research it until the Prophet would complete the tech, and only then burn him on it. That's one way to be sure that you'll found the religion. Spiral Minaret would be a great wonder for us, not to mention it opens up Versailles, and more religious goodness. Delaying Civil Service isn't cool, but I think Islam + wonders would be more valuable long-term, and since we have a Prophet sitting around... that's probably what I would go after next. If we fail to get the religion, we do at least have the consolation prize of building the Hindu shrine in Mecca. Since we're likely to get another Prophet by accident at some point in time later though, that's not the path I'd choose.

Oh, and as Blake said, with our bazillion monasteries, we no longer need Organized Religion anymore. Let's drop that and take the savings. (Heh, what we SHOULD have done was popped into Confucianism for the shield boost while we were working on Great Library + Sistine! :crazyeye: I can't believe I didn't think of that...) Also agree that Kufah should work nothing but cottages and whip for production (it's not quite doing that now).

Mecca: 2539
culture.gif
, +39/turn
Medina: 1399
culture.gif
, +37/turn
Damascus: 1048
culture.gif
, +37/turn

Note the drastic improvement in just the last few turnsets! The Great Library + 2 free scientist specialists (with Sistine) has really helped out Damascus. Once we get some cathedrals up and running, we'll really be in business. :cool:

Sullla
Blake
Quack
Compromise <<< UP NOW
Garath <<< on deck
 
Garath said:
No, National Epic has surely got to go in Medina, with its three food bonuses. That *will* be where we end up running the greatest number of Artists, it can't help but be. I don't think it matters much which one gets Heroic Epic, though.
Indeed. NE in Medina, HE probably in Mecca.

My point with Medina was not that it shouldn't be growing, but that its growth is *so* fast that it could still be whipping at the same time, for no loss overall. We need to get National Epic in there ASAP, I though that was due to be started 15 turns ago.
I think you underestimate the amount of lost commerce from whipping when the city isn't capped. The city is X pop smaller for Z turns until it grows to caps, so like whipping 2 pop when the city is 8 below the caps and takes 3 turns to grow each pop, would cost 96 commerce (a very crude calculation, but it's in the right ballpark). That's not a cheap price to pay for 60 hammers, especially when we're commerce starved.
Well it's not clearcut anyway. 2 turns faster monastery would give +8 culture (it doubles 2 turns earlier) and allow the national epic to be completed sooner, but the 90+ commerce will shave 4 turns off Civil Service with the associated bonus in the capital. Personally I think we need the commerce badly enough.

Maybe National Epic should've been started earlier (definitely should be after the temple), but the monasteries are not useless, providing +2 science/turn when we run 100% science.

Blake: I'm well aware that we could get 60 hammers from whips on a regular basis. Personally, however, I refuse to exploit that bug in the game, and no strategies I suggest or endorse will do so in any way.
You'll just always go for 30h/whip? Or luck of the draw? Maybe sir would like 15h/whip? When production bonuses are in play it’s pretty much “exploit” vs “bend over”.

Do we have any cottages up yet? I haven't seen any mentioned. Even more important, do we have any more *workers* yet? It's definitely time to go on an economy (growth + workers) and possibly even some military kick, now that round of wonders is done. I suspect that'll take up much of Compromise's and my turns, with the exceptions of Notre Dame and National Epic.
Garath
The workers don't actually have a lot to do. Most of our terrain is so marginal that improving it wont actually result in it being worth working and the coast is better (like for poor commerce starved us, 2-0-2 beats 2-1-0, maybe even 2-1-1). No city is lacking tiles improved to work. I feel we might be slightly understaffed, but 2 more workers would definitely be overkill.

Checking the save...
Were still in Organized Religion (Sulla noted that too).

Damascus needs a Granary…. one day.

It will probably be worth whipping the courthouse in Najran in 3 turns, this should free up 3-4 gold which is as much as the coast workers would be bringing in.

Qin and Caesar will both trade us currency for Drama + Mono/Literature. We should probably make this trade (with Caesar, methinks):
The +1 trade routes will provide +12 commerce a turn.
Marketplaces will provide some benefit in Damascus, Medina and maybe Mecca (other cities are too weak to justify).
It will discount Civil Service to the tune of 140 beakers.

Qin has Metal Casting and isn't building the Colossus (or at least he doesn't "have his reasons" for not trading the tech). We should probably hold off on trades to Qin until he lets us take Metal Casting, we might be able to grab the Colossus and it'd be big huge help (pity that we have no copper).

We should probably make this trade with Qin:
Our 1 silver, for 1 of his dyes. We have theatres but not forges. This will give a net increase of +1 happy (which will count in Medina).

On a separate note. Islam: It's worth noting that the holy-city algorithm prefers cities with larger populations and less religions. IF we spread 2 religions to both Najran and Basra then Medina will have the highest probability of getting Islam, followed by Damascus. So, there would be an over 50% chance of islam going to one of the Big 3. But if the junk cities only have 1 religion it will almost certainly go to one of them. Lowering the population of the junk cities (via whip) will also further skew the odds towards the big cities.


Sulla, can't say I agree with you on Binary Science rate. I actually don't care about the integer-maths benefits, for me it's about being able to wait until the last moment to commit to a tech to research. Binary science rate is the ultimate in flexibility (you can even use the cash to upgrade units in a pinch).
 
Sullla said:
Civil Service is never really a bad tech to research, but we have to get Music in the near future as well. Remember, that's where Notre Dame is located: 10 culture/turn, double speed production with stone, and provides Great Artist points! That would really be silly if we missed out on that. :crazyeye: I'd even say that we should research it before Civil Service, but that's a judgement call.

Lurker Comment

Music enables Cathedrals..........
 
Originally Posted by Quack

This made me laugh. You even changed the w to u in the quote. :)

Do we want to pursue Divine Right next? One thing we could do is research it until the Prophet would complete the tech, and only then burn him on it.

Im going to write this down in my notebook for future games. I never thought of this before :lol: .

Organized religion was a screwup by me. I didnt notice we were in no-religion, my belief was that its helping us with our wonder-production. :mischief: Next person should probably switch out of that immediately.

Cynyck, we are spiritual so we dont have a 1-turn anarchy.
 
Late in joining in on this one, but I think cultural victories are impossible (not impossible but very difficutl). Interesting variant with the no culture slider, I'll be reading, happy 4th of July to all.
 
I'm pretty happy with the progress on this turnset.

Turn 0, 900AD:
We're pagans again as I switched out of Organized religion. I also made Blake's suggested trade of our only Silver for some of Qin's dye. I then traded Drama and Monotheism to learn Currency. That boosted our income from 32 to 47gpt! I continued running the science slider at 0% because I can't get Music with our present treasury.

In case anyone's keeping track, we're culturally pressuring 3 German cities: Hamburg is now 79% German, Essen is 5% German, and Munich is 79% German.

Turn 1, 920AD:
Mecca completes a theater, so I start a Hindu Monastery there. I notice it's working a plains hill instead of a grass hill mine, so I switch that for slightly faster growth. Medina completes a temple, and I start National Epic there (finally!). A missionary completes in Kufah and is sent to enlighten the people of Basra. I switch to 100% research since we have funds to get to Music in two turns. I'm not sure if we care, but Julius converts to Buddhism.


Turn 2, 940AD:
Not much, but I start a temple in Damascus. As a side note: we have stone to double the construction rate of Christian Cathedrals, but not Copper that doubles the construction rate of Confucian Academies. We should preferentially build the former first.

Turn 3, 960AD:
Missionary spreads Christianity in Basra, which now has 2 religions. I halt work on the library to start a Christian temple in Basra. I whip (2 pop) a Christian missionary in Kufah to send to Najran. The Colossus is biafal!!! Wow. I whip (3 pop) the courthouse in Najran and start a Confucian temple.

Also, we discover Music. (As expected, no free Great Artist.) So, I stagnate Mecca's growth by working the plains hill mines. One turn to finish the Hindu Monastery, so I let that continue. I put Notre Dame in the queue there.

Qin will trade Metalcasting now, but not without taking everything we know (he no longer needs Drama), including Music. I decide it's not worth it.

I notice though, that only Bismarck doesn't have Alphabet, and he does have Metalcasting! He won't trade me Metalcasting for Alphabet plus our whole treasury (20 gold), so I sell Alphabet to him for 120 gold. This lets me run at 100% research to get Divine Right far enough for our Great Prophet to be of use during my turnset! (In the screenshot, he says "it's not good enough" because I tried to get him to take Alphabet and my measly 21 gold for Metalcasting.)


Turn 4, 980AD:
Start a Confucian Temple in Najran as the courthouse opens. Start a Christian temple in Kufah as the missionary sets off for Najran. I find that Bismarck now has Metalcasting and will trade for Drama and Literature. I guess trading Alphabet was a good move!


Julius has Feudalism, but won't trade it to us unless we give him everything we know. I decide it's not worth it yet. Hope that doesn't come back to bite us.

I decide that National Epic can wait in Medina yet again and switch it to a forge.

Turn 5, 1000AD:
Damascus starts the new millenium by breaking ground on a Christian Cathedral (Is this right?). Since Medina is working 3 forests, I decide to whip 4 pop to get the forge finished. It will regrow and work its last coast again in 1 turn. I decided the hammer bonus was worth it.

Medina before the forge is whipped:


Turn 6, 1010AD:
Not much, but I notice that Archimedes (a Great Engineer) is born in Shanghai. Watch what techs we give to Qin!

Turn 7, 1020AD:
Our missionary spreads Christianity in Najran. Now, all of our cities have 2 religions. Where will Islam found???


Turn 8, 1030AD:
Our next great person is...Hypatia--a Great Scientist! I'm not sure what to do with her, so I fortify her in Damascus pending a group decision.

Turn 9, 1040AD:
After much research, Chuang-Tzu makes the breakthrough he needs to complete the discovery of Divine Right. We found Islam in...(I was on pins and needles waiting to click through the popups for this one)...Medina! One of our chosen 3 cities! Probably the worst of them, since this might further pollute our Great Artist people-line, but it's better than one of our non-culture hubs. Great advice on getting 2 religions in the lesser cities, Blake! I move the starting missionary toward the southwest, but I'm not sure whether to put him in Damascus for the immediate +1 culture, or Kufah for missionary whipping.


I lower our research to 0% again and set the research target for Civil Service (finally).

Turn 10, 1050AD:
Not much happens. We're at 10 years per turn now, and at a weird switchpoint. Someone should feel free to run 5 or 15 turns. I've done enough this turnset, though.
 
Sorry about the huge screenshots, but I'm short of time and wanted to get the turnset posted quickly.

We have an Islamic missionary heading south. I suggest Kufah so that it can build a monastery and be able to whip out missionaries, but a +1 culture in Damascus would also be nice.

We have a Great Scientist to use. Hypatia is fortified in her hometown of Damascus.

I think we should concentrate on spreading Christianity over all other religions since we have the Cathedral-resource of stone, but not Copper or Marble for the other faiths. (Too bad we don't have Judaism which also favors stone.)

I started on Civil Service, but as I type this, I wonder if our Great Scientist will help with this; I didn't check. (I think I prefer founding an Academy in our highest-commerce cultural city, but wanted to point out this possibility. EDIT: No, there are plenty of other things a Great Scientist prefers to Civil Service.)

We probably want to trade for Feudalism and build some more military (from where?), but I held off on trading because I think we should get closer to finishing Notre Dame before trading away Music. We're probably in a race with the other continent already.

Mecca's working on Notre Dame; Medina's finally working on a forge-assisted National Epic; Damascus is building a Confucian Academy (I think, or is it a Christian Cathedral; now I can't remember and I'm low on sleep and away from the CIV computer.)

Garath, you're up. The save is attached to this post.
 
I think it may be best to hold off the scientist until CS and Paper come in, and than burn him on Education. This will give us our half-price universities sooner, and oxford sooner, and put us closer to Liberalism as well. If its possible, we should maybe try to do something like taking nationalism with a artist(What does artist prefer over Nationalism which might cause trouble), and than using liberalism to get military tradition. Cavalry are probably what we need to increase our land area at the moment, and ofcourse the half-price universities and free-speech will help both our research and culture.

I guess the other possibility is academy, but we dont have any strong science cities as far as I have noticed. I think a one-time shot on education will be better.
 
After much research, Chuang-Tzu makes the breakthrough he needs to complete the discovery of Divine Right. We found Islam in...(I was on pins and needles waiting to click through the popups for this one)...Medina! One of our chosen 3 cities! Probably the worst of them, since this might further pollute our Great Artist people-line
SWEET! Oh my gosh I love it when a plan actually works :D.
There is no pollution, unless we create a shrine, we aren't compelled to create the shrine. Islam will just be +5 culture


I'm not sure if we care, but Julius converts to Buddhism.
This may be a Bad Thing, because guess who Caesar's new punching bag is going to be??? It aint going to be Qin anymore! Fortunately his anger at the Horse-denial has faded.
It might be worth the investment of converting JC back to Conf, to create tensions between the AI's and improve our gold income.

Good call on pop-rushing the forge, definitely a very good use of poprush (forge = everything else faster).


As for the GS... An Academy probably in Medina could work. If I'm not mistaken I believe the next tech he'll give us is Paper, this could also be an option, to speed along the tech to Liberalism. This is working from memory/instinct but I think that the GS should complete a little over 100% of paper (very slight wastage), using him on Education would about 1/2 complete it so no wastage. Since Paper is a largely useless tech beyond being a pre-req it might be worth keeping the GS on ice for Education.

I don't think we should use a GA on nationalism, it might actually be better to just use Liberalism on Nationalism, that gives us maximum culture. Altough this could bite us in the butt if Caesar gets frisky.

I'll load the save later and try to figure out the returns on the GS and what might be worth poprushing in.
 
Wow, great turns Compromise! I'm impressed that you managed to get Islam to pop in one of our Big Three. Nice teamwork there with Blake. :goodjob:

Taking a look at the save... I'd actually say that a cathedral is not the highest priority for Damascus right now. For starters, it still needs a granary; I guess everyone has skipped that in favor of more culture. I also think we should put Spiral Minaret in that city; we don't care about it having Great Prophet points, and it could use the additional culture. As far as the other wonders/national wonders out there at the moment, I think we should put Heroic Epic in Mecca (that's our best troop producer too) and Globe Theatre in Medina (Great Artist points, yay!) Globe Theatre will also let us run the max possible amount of Artist specialists in that city, just so long as we can supply them with food. Garath's decision on whether to finish out the cathedral first in Damascus or swap to something else and come back to it later; either would probably be ok.

The current tech that the Great Scientist is lightbulbing is Philosophy. That might not be such a bad tech to get, since it would open up Angkor Wat (and Pacifism, but we really can't use it because we're getting more value out of having no state religion). If we don't want to use the Great Scientist, I really think the best option is an Academy, which adds another 4 culture to one of our cities and would provide a MAJOR science boost. We're still looking at about 200 turns left in this game, so that building is going to add a ton of culture (especially after multipliers) over the long haul. I would not favor saving the Scientist for Education, but that's also an option. Using the Scientist on Paper would be a waste, in my opinion (cheap tech). The other three options I've mentioned here all seem more valuable to me.

I would take the free Islamic missionary and put him in Mecca, actually. Kufah is going to have its hands full building Christian missionaries for some time now, so I wouldn't add Islam there too. Mecca, on the other hand, is going to be set to crank missionaries by the ton one it finishes its wonder (and the requisite temples/monasteries that it's missing). We're going to need to spread both Hinduism and Islam, and I think Mecca is the city that can best afford to do that - it should be able to get a missionary every other turn, if not every turn. Certainly open to other suggestions, of course. :)

Looks like there may be some potential deals out there for Feudalism and Construction, but I didn't check the specifics. Qin also has a gold resource we can trade for; once Essen flips to us and we gain control of a second fish resource, we can trade the fish for his gold.

We currently have six cities. We should found the white dot down by the whales relatively soon, once we get our hands on Optics. That will get us seven; Essen will take us to eight (it's at 1% German, so it should flip any turn now). We'll need Hamburg or Munich to get to the desired nine cities, but trust me - they will fall in time. ;) The percentage of German culture continues to drop with every turnset. Neither is going to fall until Medina/Damascus hit 5000 culture and expand borders again, but once that happens, their days are both numbered. It's just a matter of time... :mischief:

Mecca: 2972
culture.gif
, +46/turn
Medina: 1783
culture.gif
, +43/turn
Damascus: 1439
culture.gif
, +40/turn

I think we're on the right track, everyone. :cool: Have fun, Garath.
 
OK, I see it and will play either in a few hours if I feel capable of giving it the thought it deserves after giving blood or tomorrow if not.

I'll take another look at the trade situation, get yet more monasteries and missionaries built, and so on. I favour the Academy as use for the scientist, in general, but I'll take a more specific look when I actually have the save. Definitely agree about Heroic Epic and Globe Theatre. You never know, we might actually get to *run* some of these Artists in Medina before long.

I'm also starting to get antsy again as to the state of our military. A bunch of archers and a few old chariots isn't going to cut it if Praets or Cho-Ko-Nus come swarming over our borders. I'll be taking a look at when and how we can afford to upgrade our military again.

Garath
 
Just a couple more thoughts.

I favor an Academy for Hypatia. Taoism was founded in the 600s, so Angkor Wat is an old tech.

I think Basra can switch to building a temple instead of the library it's been working on.

I think Islam in Mecca is appropriate. :)

Yes! Military! You might be able to trade for Feudalism with Julius. It's probably safe to give him Music if he still wants it. Notre Dame should be ours if it's built on this continent.

If we do get Feudalism, is it better to upgrade or build new protectors. Probably a combination of both.

Also, I think there's some info on the threads that indicates that an AI will no longer accept bribes to go to war against another AI using the excuse "we've got enough on our hands right now" both when it is currently at war and when it has decided to go at war. We might want to check Julius every few turns to see if he thinks we're weak. I do like the idea of trying to get him to convert to Confucianism, though we'll probably lose a fair number of missionaries doing so.
 
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