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RB2 - Clueless Catherine Conquers Crowded Continents

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Succession Games' started by Kylearan, Sep 26, 2010.

  1. Kylearan

    Kylearan compound eye

    Joined:
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    Bonn, Germany
    Hello and welcome to the second succession game for Civ 5 brought to you by Realms Beyond! This game features Catherine of Russia against 11 AIs, four more than normal on a standard-sized map, to see how this changes the game.

    Leader: Catherine of Russia (+1 production per strategic resource, horse/iron/uranium provide double quantity)
    Map: Continents, normal size
    Level: Emperor
    AIs: 11
    Speed: Normal
    Victory Conditions: All enabled, but we should try domination

    Everything is allowed for this game except cheesy worker steals - use common sense here.

    Roster:
    Kylearan
    Aretii
    SleepingMoogle
    SpazzMaticus
    Gold Ergo Sum

    You have 24 hours to post a "got it", and another 48 hours to complete your turns. This is not a strict rule; if you need more time then this won't be a problem, but please say so in the given timeframe and keep us updated on your progress.

     

    Attached Files:

  2. Kylearan

    Kylearan compound eye

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    Our warrior had started west of our settler on the hill. I took the liberty to move him already onto the other hill for a better view. So let's discuss where to settle our capital!

    We don't have a food resource nearby, only lots of grassland. On the plus side, we have not only one, but two rivers nearby, which is nice!

    What do you think, will it be worth it to move towards the cattle? Founding on the hill loses a production hex, but would put all three resources into the second ring and deer in the third ring. Alternatively we could found on the grassland tile southwest of the hill, putting marble into third ring (excuse my old-fashioned terminology here :lol: ) but retaining the hill for later mining.

    Founding in place doesn't look that attractive to me, but that may be just my noobishness. ;)

    I'll play 20 turns tomorrow, then the next player 15 turns and all subsequent players 10 turns. Any objections to this? I'm not sure if 10 turns are too short and if we should let every player play 15 turns, with the exception of war time where we might opt to play only 10.
     
  3. Aretii

    Aretii Chieftain

    Joined:
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    Checking in.

    So, I've been thinking a little about our gameplan, and the preferred victory goal of Domination. One thing I'd like to accomplish, if we can, is to keep most of the cities we conquer, pushing the happy cap as far as it can go.

    First of all, we get 9 base happy from the difficulty level. On a Standard map, there will be six Natural Wonders. There are fifteen luxury resources. So, right there, before policies and building stuff, we have ninety happy to work with.

    There are three buildings that increase happy: the Colosseum (Construction/150h/3gpt/+4 happy), the Theatre (Printing Press/300/5/4), and the Stadium (Mass Media/450/6/4), each sucessive one requiring the one before it to be constructed. Clearly the Stadium comes too late to help matters much.

    The Wonders that affect Happiness are as follows: Eiffel Tower (Radio, +8 happy), Notre Dame (Education, +5), The Forbidden Palace (Banking, Unhappiness generated by # of cities is cut in half), and The Hanging Gardens (Mathematics, +3, increases population in all cities by 1).

    Each social policy branch has at least one feature that affects happiness. Tradition has a first-tier policy, Legalism, that reduces unhappiness due to population in the capital by 33%. Liberty has Meritocracy, a second-tier policy that gives +1 happy for each city connected to the capital, for a max of (num_cities-1) happy. Honor has Military Caste, a second-tier policy which gives +1 happy for each city with a garrison, for a max of num_cities happy. Piety's tier-zero adoption bonus is +2 happy, and Theocracy (tier 2) reduces unhappiness from citizens in non-occupied cities (our own, or conquered ones with a Courthouse) by 20%. Patronage's third-tier policy Cultured Diplomacy increases by 50% the happiness gained from luxury resources given to us by city-state allies. Order's second-tier policy Planned Economy reduces unhappiness from number of cities by 50%. Autocracy's second-tier policy Police state reduces unhappiness in occupied cities by 50%. Freedom's adoption bonus is to reduce the unhappiness generated by Specialists by 50%. Rationalism's tier one Humanism gives +1 happy for each university. Finally, Commerce's tier three policy Protectionism gives +1 happy for each luxury. Clearly the most powerful ones are Meritocracy, Military Caste, Planned Economy, Freedom, and Protectionism.

    As for the causes of Unhappiness, they are threefold. Firstly, population. Your civilization generates one unhappiness for each population point in a non-occupied city. Secondly, number of cities. Your civilization generates two unhappiness for each non-occupied city you control. Thirdly, occupied cities. You generate five unhappy per occupied city you control, and occupied cities generate extra unhappy per population point (I had 10 pop in occupied cities in my China game, and was generating 13 unhappy from them, so I'm guessing an extra 33%, rounded down). Puppet states do not generate any unhappiness above and beyond the normal for population and number of cities.

    So, based on this, here are my thoughts. The most important wonder for supporting our gameplan is clearly The Forbidden Palace. Right there that gives num_cities happy. We were clearly going to go for a number of Honor policies anyway, to get the bonuses for fighting, and Military Caste is pretty good. I really like Order as a secondary policy branch - its bonuses are quite strong, and I want to find out if Planned Economy stacks with Forbidden Palace the way I hope it does :D. Planned Economy also lies on the very powerful Communism line of policies. We're going to have difficulty generating enough culture to buy policies the bigger we get, but between monuments, Cultured city-states, and the odd wonder here and there, I think we'll get by. We're also going to have to be careful about population - let's not grow our cities beyond the number of useful tiles they can work! With regard to conquered cities, I think a good starting point is this: Raze the crappy ones. Puppet the rest, but only annex the ones that have good production potential. The only point in annexing a city is to be able to control its production. The Courthouse costs two hundred hammers. These two facts point together to the conclusion that you should annex cities only if they can get their courthouse done and produce sufficient units/useful buildings in the time you have left to make up for the happiness crunch while they build their courthouses. If in doubt, and there's enough happiness to spare, puppet it. You can always raze it later.

    As for our starting position, I am underwhelmed. Grassland is fine and dandy, but where are the hammers? All we have is two hills, four forest, a plains marble, and a grass cow (which gives a hammer when improved). Ugh, this is depressing. The cow is in the third ring of the origin, too. Here's what I'm thinking: Grass river cows are 3/0/1 tiles natively, as good as a farmed river grassland. We don't want that in our third ring. I think we should found on either the hill to our direct west (4 on the numpad) or the grassland 1 of the hill. Both are one turn away from the origin and have the cattle in the second ring. The advantage of settling on the hill is that the marble is second-ring. The advantage of settling on the grass is being able to farm that plains hill and the grass hill 111 of it as well - farmed hills are very good tiles to work in the early game! Of the two options, I lean toward settling on the grass 41 of the initial position, simply because it gives us better tiles to work for early production. Forests are such awful tiles. Regardless of where we settle, I think we shouldn't pop the ancient ruins until we've settled our first city, to give us a shot at the +1 pop bonus. My recommendation for first warrior move is onto the grass hill 41 of his current position and pop the hut on the next turn. With grass cows in our BFH, I think Animal Husbandry has to be our first tech, and Scout first has been a good opening move on Continent and Pangaea for me. Obviously, we should direct our scouting to the west and south, due to tundra and mountains being to our north and east. Welcome to Siberia! :lol:

    Okay, I'll shut up now.

    EDIT: I see I got ninja'd by Kylearan. So ignore my comments about the warrior moves for t0 - grab that ancient ruins, stat! I'm glad we are thinking alike regarding the settler move. As I said, I prefer the grassland 1 of the hill, because I really don't want to waste a good hill tile when we're so deprived of them!
     
  4. Spazzmaticus

    Spazzmaticus Chieftain

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    Hi,

    Checking in.

    From my limited experience, I can say that it's crucial to have as many hills as possible in capital. Production is most limiting factor.
    And since cities won't aquire hills through culture border expansion, I think it's best to settle with as many hills in 1st ring as possible.
    1 SW of that river hill looks optimal to me. We'll get cattle very quick, in 1st border expansion and we can ignore that marble tile early on.
    We can always buy 2 tiles that are needed to get to marble for ~250 gold and then sell marble for a lump sum of ~300 gold for 30 turns to any AI that has the cash.
     
  5. Gold Ergo Sum

    Gold Ergo Sum Chieftain

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    My vote is also for the 4/1 move tile as well (even if it costs us a turn), placing us NW (7) from the current Warrior position. It places Fur and Marble in our capital's range (although 3rd ring for each). That tile is also a production-less tile, and we can magically add 2-production by settling there. All things being equal, I think it is always best to settle your city on a flatland, river grassland. Flatland for the Windmill late game. With this start, we want to be on the river for the Hydro Plant late (since we are trying to push through the whole tech tree right?), since that thing might add +15 base production (or more) with all those river tiles. And grassland so that we add production to a production-free tile.

    My thought on social policies are that Honor, Autocracy, and Order should be our focus. We are unlikely to move very far through any others, but Commerce might not be a bad option if we are going to have a lot of units and roads/railroads for troop movement.

    On pretty short experience, I do have to disagree about forests being bad tiles. If you put a trading post on there, I think you get 1/2/1, which makes them good Golden Age tiles late, because you get both the +1 gpt and the +1 hpt.

    Generally so far, I find the damn city screen too frustrating to select my own tiles to work consistently, so I will just use the "Focus" button and then manually select any specialists. But one thing I have noticed is that you want to go back to your city screen whenever you trigger a Golden Age, because the value of tiles change quite a bit, and in a non-GA it might've been more valuable to run a specialist, but that equation can change a lot in a GA.

    As for the length of turns, I just assumed everyone would play 10 turns, but that could take a while. We might just want to do a standard 15 turns, since we are likely to spend the entire game at war. But that is up to you guys. Trading off is part of the fun of a SG I assume, so I don't care either way.
     
  6. SleepingMoogle

    SleepingMoogle Chieftain

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    Hey there, checking in! :D Thanks for doing the background research Aretii!

    Settling on the tile NW from the Warrior has my preference as well right now. Looking at the screenshot, it would get rid of those icky tundra tiles and replace them with grassland. It's not ideal for what we want, but we'll still have 4 hills (those ruins are on a hill tile right?) with some intelligent border expansions, two of which are in the first ring.

    Depending on what the Warrior uncovers on his way to the ruins, we could have a look at the south as well? It looks quite rugged, though poor in resources so far. Something to consider perhaps?


    Animal Husbandry & Scout are good first picks for research and production respectively. There's quite a bit of flat ground so we may get lucky with Horse spawns, and the scouts helps with early ruins hunting and meeting other Civs and city states. Policy-wise, Honor is the obvious choice. The other two won't improve our military nearly as much.
     
  7. TheFragleader

    TheFragleader Chieftain

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    Sorry that this is a bit off-topic, but where do I sign up for a SG? I have been lurking for a long time and these seem like fun.
    Excuse me if the answer is obvious
     
  8. Gold Ergo Sum

    Gold Ergo Sum Chieftain

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    It seems that each SG is started by a different community. This is a Realms Beyond SG. Just stop by the forums and get to know people.
     
  9. Aretii

    Aretii Chieftain

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    A river forest with a Trading Post is a 1/1/3 tile. That's okay, but it's not very good. I prefer to Lumbermill them, for a 1/2/1 or 1/2/0 tile, but that's not available until Medieval times. I agree that river forest is good to have in a golden age, but I find them pretty underwhelming in general. We have one non-river forest, which is the only one I would consider Trading Posting, to make a 1/1/2 tile that goes to 1/2/3 in a Golden Age. I'm still not sure about which forests are best to chop, but chopping isn't *that* good in C5 (one chop is only 20h, and a settler is 90 and a worker 70), but we can discuss if the need arises.

    Keep in mind that marble also gives an undocumented 25% bonus to wonder construction for being in the BFH (I believe). We will want to buy our way to the marble before we build wonderthings in Moscow.

    Just a note for Warrior exploration: Try to prioritize using the flat ground. Since we have two move on our warrior, it'd behoove us to get max value out of every turn. Save the rugged terrain for the Scout to explore.

    Autocracy seems a pretty weak branch overall. The adoption bonus is nice, but I think Honor and Order are much better.

    @TheFragleader: As people get into the swing of things with C5, more SGs will be started. Watch the Arathorn thread in this forum - his current game is a veterans' game, but he's said a few times that his next one will be open to all. Just stalk this forum, as most people do recruit here!

    EDIT: I forgot about civil service farms. Durrr. If we want to chop anything, we want to chop river forests and farm them. 4/0/1 tiles are awesome - that supports a whole extra citizen!
     
  10. Gold Ergo Sum

    Gold Ergo Sum Chieftain

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    I have yet to actually go for a Domination win (I am more of a peaceful builder) and have won already on the other 3 victory conditions, so I haven't unlocked Autocracy yet. But reading the bonuses allowed, it doesn't seem weak at all to me for an all out war Civ, unless you really want the Freedom specialist hammer bonus. Liberty is pretty much crap.
     
  11. Aretii

    Aretii Chieftain

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    The question is, what do you give up by going to Autocracy? Honor, Discipline, and Military Caste seem like musts for the first three policy buys. You REALLY want to get to Communism in Order, because that is an insane bonus and much better than anything Autocracy has to offer. So that's Order, Socialism, Planned Economy, and Communism. By then the game is basically over - I could see a late-game buy of the Autocracy adoption bonus, because that will save a ton of gpt, but going deep into the tree seems like a total waste compared to how good Order is.
     
  12. Gold Ergo Sum

    Gold Ergo Sum Chieftain

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    Again, I haven't gone all out war for a Dom victory yet, but I find myself far more gold challenged in the late game than I do hammer challenged. Given the undocumented (and very steep gold costs of units), I would think the Autocracy adoption bonus for a multifront war would be huge. But I've never had (or needed) an empire bigger than seven cities to get to the other victory conditions, so I just don't know.

    I am about to load up Japan and whup some ass.
     
  13. MuLepton

    MuLepton Chieftain

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    Lurker/replacement here :)

    I think the call for the 4-1 spot is indeed the best - two hills straight away, at least two more close (the deer seems to be on a grassland hill as well).
    What are your short term plans? I guess build order will be scout -> worker and research mining -> bronze working?

    Definitely looking forward to following this!
     
  14. Kylearan

    Kylearan compound eye

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    Aretii, thanks for a great write-up on happiness! :goodjob:
    I think the question of when to go to war will be important for this, if I understand the game mechanics correctly. As far as I know, cultural buildings will get destroyed when you conquer a city, but the social policy cost will increase nonetheless. (Do puppet states increase the cost as well?) So going to war early might be good for catching some AIs unprepared, but peacefully teching for some time and going on a warpath later might help us getting the critical social policies earlier, or even allow us to get the later ones at all.

    The question of when and how rapidly to conquer AIs will obviously depend on other things we don't know yet, but I thought throwing this into the discussion. :)

    I'll play when I get home from work, and will definitely do a scout->worker start. We will have a hard time competing against all the scouting AI units, though...

    Research-wise, I'll go Animal Husbandry first to look for horses and to grab the cows ASAP. Beyond that I'm not sure yet, I don't have the research tree in front of me. ;) The question is if we clear worker techs like Masonry and Calendar first, or if we beeline to a wonder tech (Writing for Great Library, for example). But I need to have a look at the tree first.
     
  15. SleepingMoogle

    SleepingMoogle Chieftain

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    Early wars are expensive. It takes a lot of soldiers to crack cities and those hammers could have gone into expanding our own empire. Unless there's really obvious gains to be had from a quick rush, we should focus on getting a strong home base (a second city with more production potential would be very helpful here) while teching towards Construction. Catapults and other siege weapons are what will make capturing cities doable.

    That's my short-term suggestion anyway. :) Aside from the obvious Worker techs (Animal Husbandry being the obvious first pick), focus on getting to Construction for early siege weapons.

    As for wonders, I'm not sure if any of the early ones will really help our military focus. Stonehenge might be interesting to consider to quickly expand the capital's borders though.
     
  16. Kylearan

    Kylearan compound eye

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    Just to clarify, with going to war "early" I didn't mean rushing (i.e. before you have catapults). I think we should definitley expand peacefully at first! What I was wondering is if you could get access to the later social policies faster (or get them at all) if you waited even a bit longer with attacking, buying some additional policies for cheap before conquering cities with whatever units come after catapults and swordmen. Anyway, we'll see.

    One other thing: In LotR28 it has been mentioned that savegames from the special and the regular Civ 5 edition might be incompatible, which would be frustrating if true. I have the regular edition; does anyone here from our roster have the special edition?
     
  17. timski

    timski Chieftain

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    Random (not very good at lurking) lurker comments:

    If you're planning domination, the Cossacks probably represents a key inflection point in your strategy: Both powerful and fast. Chivalry requires both the research branch of the tech tree and the horse branch. That supports either an early horseman-type rush on your nearest neighbor, or a tech-lead start (with minimal war) before Cossacks. Heading towards Chivalry doesn't lend itself to the compromise early-mid invasion strategy, which pushes straight towards Iron and Steel - Swordsmen, then Longswordsmen - which makes for a slow, but pretty deadly advance.

    Your Grassland start hurts early production/Golden Ages, so I'd be inclined towards a research-heavy start. Even more so, since you're not planning the Worker steals that the early horse units are so good at. Maybe even a Great Library/Civil Service slingshot (not dissimilar to RB1, you can certainly make use of Civil Service at your capital). Unfortunately that doesn't play well with all the weird and wonderful cultural/Krepost/social policy stuff, because you probably won't tech up to Kreposts until somewhat later. Kreposts (as Barracks) are on the Iron/Sword line.

    Therein lies the crux of your early decision-making: To Krepost or to Cossack? That is the question...

    Other observations on conquering:

    * Domination requires capitals only. Again, sounds obvious, but it's easy to forget this, and simply attack civs everywhere, Civ 4-style. The result is slow wars and serious challenges managing happiness. Remember that capturing a capital doesn't have the sort of border and motherland problems seen in Civ 4, while civs are almost guaranteed to beg for mercy once they've lost their capital, allowing you quickly re-estabilish trades, and to crack on with the next civ's capital.

    * There's a strong argument for being very selective about what cities you capture - happiness is often best "spent" on your early cities, which will have all the right improvements, buildings, and so forth. Mostly when you capture an enemy capital it takes so long for the culture generation to start turning again, that you're more-or-less stuck with the borders the city had when you captured it. Fortunately capitals have well-developed borders by the mid-game.

    * Consider making conquered cities puppets first, and only annexing them later, if you require them to build something special. That's especially true just after capture, when such cities may not have the correct improvements or sufficient population to make much impact on your economy.

    * Finally don't forget the inter-continental dimension of domination. Perhaps that's obvious, but early wars, techs and settlement patterns will almost inevitably not be focused on the coast. It's easy to be riding a whirlwind of conquest that abruptly ends because you hadn't prepared adequately to leave your starting continent.
     
  18. Aretii

    Aretii Chieftain

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    I have the special edition. I think what's likely is that if a game is generated by a special edition player, it might contain Babylon. If the answer turns out to be that, no, merely having the special edition renders me unable to play with regular edition people... :mad:.

    We're probably going to want to raze a lot of the cities we conquer. I'm in favor of exterminating civs, not just conquering their capital, on the grounds that it's more fun to actually dominate the world :D. But I'm up for whatever.

    The GL --> CS slingshot is not outside the realm of possibility. For the record, the techs we'd need to pull that off are Pottery, Writing (enables GL), Philosophy, Animal Husbandry, and Trapping, with Mining and Masonry thrown in if we want to grab the Marble for 25% bonus to building the damn thing. I'm not that sure how much we gain from that, however, given that given the conditions of the map, we don't have that long before we'll be forced into war by border pressure. Growing the capital upward, sure, but with so few production tiles, how do we leverage that into a gain? Remember, Catapults may come at Mathematics (Archery --> Math) but they require Iron to be built (Mining --> BW --> IW). We're a lot of techs out of the way of our :hammer:time.

    I would, however, like to build the Oracle, so we can finish the Honor policies we want as quickly as possible and begin saving policies to spend in Order as soon as the Industrial Era begins. We *need* to get Communism at some point this game - we're the Red Scare, da? :lol: I could see getting Stonehenge too, for similar reasons - AH --> Pottery --> Calendar to enable Scout --> Worker --> Settler --> Stonehenge would not be terrible. The major problem with that is that we'd lose worker turns hiding in the city if Barbarians came a-strolling around. With all that tundra to our NE, we're likely to see some camps arise. Barbarians are not sufficiently scary that you need to bring back your first warrior from scouting, but it takes 4-5 turns for a capital to bombard them down.
     
  19. Arathorn

    Arathorn Catan player

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    One thing to keep in mind with puppet cities -- the only you don't control is their production. If you use workers (a successful war often leaves me with excess workers) to build trading posts everywhere, the puppet cities won't have the production to build much besides their token culture and happiness buildings, while providing minimal unhappiness and reasonable wealth to your empire. I've been pretty successful with this strat.

    As for planning inter-continental, you don't need a single city on a coast to conquer another continent. Units "embark" now and move on their own. Yeah, they're defenseless, so a single escort ship (or two, maybe) is nice, but there's generally open space (or a city-state to bribe or ignore) where you can drop off safely even before the war begins.

    Arathorn
     
  20. Aretii

    Aretii Chieftain

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    While that's true, I've found that the Sirian Doctrine is very effective in C5. I warred a lot in my Archipelago game, and having control of the seas let me strike anywhere, anytime with my land forces, in addition to doing the job of siege on coastal cities. A good shipyard works wonders.
     

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