RB21 - The Mongol Hordes

I see it and will play either tonight or tomorrow morning.

Personally I'd like to get mining and bronze working next. If we wait for size 3 to build a settler, the revealing of copper should coincide with getting a settler out. Of course we would also like horses for our keshiks. In the absence of copper, the best sites in terms of the BFCs seem to be 1N of the bananas (horses, dyes), 2 N of the easternmost elephant (elephants) and 1N of the incense (gold and horses). However, we must be mindful that we have no ways to pop our borders until mysticism and obelisks.
 
But do we really need Bronze working? Slavery is good, and chopping is good, for sure. Of course slavery isn't as good since we umm didn't settle with the corn :). But if we're going for an early war against probably Cyrus, how are we best going to do that?

How many (unpromoted) axes will it take to take out 2-4 archers, with cultural bonus (Cyrus is creative)? A lot. I think a beeline to construction for cats and elephants is the way to go.

The other thing to consider is that I didn't realize how CLOSE Cyrus is. There is only 3 squares between the east edge of our borders and the western edge of what I assume is Persepolis. It may be that he's going to settle that spot before we even get there, if we don't hurry, which we not be able to afford to do.

We have 12 more turns on Pottery. Here's some beaker costs:
Writing 280
Math 585
Construction 819

Mining 117
Masonry (pre-req of Construction) 186
BW 280

So I guess Mining isn't a bad choice either since we'd need it for Construction.

And I think we're very likely to lose the ivory to a 2nd city from Cyrus. And wow, EVERYONE is close. We could lose the southern horses to the next city from Peter. I'd say he's very likely to put his next city 1N of the bananas, which also gets him dyes, horses, and "our" corn (though we may out-culture him for the horses and corn).

Toku's next city could go in our first ring to our west, though in looking at the map, he has better spots to his S and W.

We're going to get very squeezed very soon. One option we have is to expand N, where the lands aren't as good, but the competition isn't as fierce. There are horses, incense and gold that we could pick up with our 2nd city.

Another option is instead of waiting for Construction, to pick up HBR as our next tech, although it's expensive (45 turns at current rates), and Keshiks are expensive too (75 hammers compared to 52 for an axe). At this difficulty, and with our variant, we don't want to be throwing away too many troops. The retreatability of Keshiks could be nice.

Mining and BW is a valid choice too - I just thought I'd try and see if we could get some consensus before we go too far down a path.
 
I'll wait until tomorrow to play to get some more advice. My main reason for going to BW was for slavery to whip obelisks in new cities (not the capital). Axes are good defensive units too and they will prevent us having to research archery - I agree it will be tough to try an axe rush in this variant.

Horses, gold and cows spot is nice, but we will only get these resources when we pop our borders - and this will be sped up with slavery. But we could really do with the elephants too. This is a very tough opening and I would like other players' input before playing my turns.
 
Another thought would be, instead of getting Mysticism, going for Writing for the more useful (but more expensive) libraries. Still, we'd probably want to whip those too, which would require BW and slavery
 
How long does it usually take AIs to get a second city out on Emperor? I am afraid that with surroundings so crouded, Cyrus might block us off from the Ivory if we don't move quickly. Would the gamble of building an unprotected settler right away and sending him towards the horses and ivory site work, or would AI call our bluff?

As for tech path, Construction sounds good, but only if we can secure Ivory. In that case, finishing pottery makes sence, because Writing->Math->Masonry->Construction is a very long path and would benefit from cottages. (Or we could do Writing->Alphabet and trade for Math and Masonry.) The problem with that is that chances are AIs will be very well developed by the time our forces are ready. Or we could research HBR and try a Keshik rush before Cyrus builds up. Which option is more likely to succede?
 
Hi,

Sullla said:
I will never understand why you wouldn't move to get a hugely helpful resource in range of your capital here. We didn't move one tile west because it added 2 desert tiles to the city radius?
The deserts alone were not the problem, but we would also have gotten three additional plains tiles (two hills, one flat) and lost 4(!) grassland tiles and a lake tile. I'm a huge fan of grasslands at the capital for cottages, and all grassland tiles could be irrigated even before CS to speed up growth if we want to.

In my view the choice was between a) faster growth in the beginning and slightly better production plus more potential for whipping vs. b) a lot more commerce mid-term plus an extra hammer for better production in the beginning. a) would mean to emphasize production and b) to emphasize research, and in the end I believed research to be more important on Emperor.

I ignore the blue circles constantly - the AI follows them, and we all know how poorly placed some of their cities can be.
Don't worry, my decision was not influenced by the blue circles. ;) I know my decision is controversial, but I stand by it. Too bad this is no RB tournament event, as these two options would be really interesting to compare! :)

-Kylearan
 
Regarding our research path, one reason for me to choose Pottery was so that our worker has something to do. There's nothing to mine, so he would have to twiddle his thumbs (or build LOTS of roads...) until we discovered BW.

I think I'd favor an elephant/catapult war over an earlier keshik rush, simply because we will be able to improve our economy on the way to Construction with libraries, while we would fall behind more when going for keshiks. However, if all AIs found their cities too quickly and in our direction, we might not have the time to wait until Construction. I think we should finish Pottery and postpone that decision until then; maybe the AIs will have founded some cities already by then, which should help our decision.

-Kylearan
 
OK, here goes. I continue pottery. HC is the only person who has founded a religion? Only one civ here starts with mysticism (HC), and he isn't even spiritual so he doesn't normally chase one. That's interesting. I continue building a warrior and wait until size 3 to build a settler. Building one now would only shave a couple of turns off and would put us at risk to barbarians. I work the lake for the commerce.

Looks like no elephants for us:



There's no way we'll get control of them except by a GA because cyrus is creative.

Our scout kills a wolf. Warrior completes in Karakorum and I put a few hammers into another warrior. At size 3 we start a settler (due in 15 turns, working 2 grassland forests).

Toku founds here, taking the gems and dyes spot:



Looks like we will have to expand north. I decide on the gold+horses spot for our settler. We kill a lion with our warrior and switch research to Mysticism. Our worker builds a cottage.

In 2500BC (!), hinduism is finally founded in York. Some guy also tells us we are the least advanced civilisation. Thanks! Hopefully the gold will help this stat.

Mysticism completes and we start mining (for gold). Possibly we should get archery next (or maybe now, delaying mining), as we are in danger of the barb archers.

Settler completes and Karakorum finishes that second warrior. The game is potentially over in 2380 BC when I rely on a barb archer attacking my warrior+settler on a forest hill. He does and he dies (phew!). The settler goes on to found Beshabalik here:



I chose the tundra deer over the plains cows because deer is 1 more food and we save a grassland forest. Plus we already have cows. Beshabalik starts on an obelisk.



The save:
 
I see it, and I can play either tonight or tomorrow. Any thoughts on what we're doing now? My first thought would be to go for Bronze Working (perhaps after Archery) for the ubiquitous axe rush, probably on Cyrus.
 
We're going to want Bronze Working just to see the copper, so that seems like the next tech research. Given our variant, I'm not at all sure that an axe rush is where we'll be heading, however. I'd probably say to adopt a "wait and see" policy with regards to that. If we could manage to capture just the city of Pasargadae in a war though... :hammer: (Ivory, sugar, and gems there, wow!) In other words, we won't be taking down any AI capitals until we have catapults (not with unpromoted units), BUT we very well could snipe off some new colonies that are lightly defended and have little/no culture.

Whether to build more cities ourselves next or build units to take cities away from the AI civs is really the question here, but I think we need to "wait and see" for a little longer before deciding. The location of copper will be critical in deciding how to play this out. (Although if we have no metals, we could also beeline for Horseback Riding and crank keshiks, which make mincemeat out of unpromoted archers.)

If we do end up founding more of our own cities, we'd probably want to found one either in the west by the spices/silks/horses or in the east by the sheep/fish. The land up there in the north isn't too appealing though, so... :ninja: :D
 
Okay I went ahead and played. It seemed like we had a consensus for what to be doing.

Looks like Mining is another 5 turns, and BW another 20 after that (at current speeds). Might speed up some with increase in our tech rates, but since I'm only playing 15 turns, it will be Sullla that will get to find out if we have glorious copper.

I tend to agree with Sullla that we're not going to be storming Persepolis with lots of axes, but we might be able to get Pasargadae, which of course would be nice.

I nearly promote our warrior before I remember. I'm obsessive about those blue clouds!


2290 - I see another Toku settler going S of hRB21 - The Mongol Hordes BC-1900.Civ4SavedGameis capital - his 3rd city.

2260 - Cyrus already has a 3rd settler.
2230 - Warrior completes. In some more near :smoke:, I debate between Barracks and Granary, before remembering that barracks are worthless to us! Set production to Granary. Peter converts to Buddhism (founded by Huayna - Elizabeth is Hindu)

2200 - Mining->BW.

2170 - Road to Beshbalik completes, start on a grassland cottage for B-town. Karakorum grows to size 4, time to BW drops from 17 to 12.

2110 - Eastern scout gets whacked by a barb archer that it ended next to - sorry about that - didn't see him.



http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads12/RB21_-_The_Mongol_Hordes_BC-1900.Civ4SavedGame

BW in 4. I had moved one of Karakorum's citizens to the forested hill to slow down growth since we're already at the happy cap of 4, and there wasn't anything much better to work. When the worker completes his cottage (in 5 turns), we should probably switch over to work that.

I'm on another warrior in KK, and the obelisk will complete in Besh in 7. It will grow next turn but has a cottage it can work. Should probably move the worker back up that way before too long to hook up the deer, gold and horses.

You can see that as expected, Peter built another city on our borders, fully hemming us in to the south. Everyone but Huayna and Washington already has a third city.
 
Ah just realized I was supposed to play 20 and Sullla 15. I only played 15, and I already closed Civ, so Sullla why don't you go ahead and take 20. Or take 15, or whatever you want :)
 
Ok, I am the almost eternal lurker and I only play multiplayer games with friends but that has taught me to be very aggressive and this looks like a perfect situation for a totally single minded aggressiveness. I wish you luck and I'll be watching your progress as always!
 
I'm up, but I can't play until tomorrow. I'm a little surprised that no one has posted any comments or looked at the save as yet. (Do I need to get my RB19 team in here to teach you how to hold a group discussion? ;)) I'm thinking of working towards some kind of an aggressive move with either our horses or (if we have it) copper. We are the Mongols, after all.

Anyway - I can't get this until tomorrow. I hope some of you will have a chance to look at it (even briefly) before then. :)
 
Hi,

Sullla said:
I'm a little surprised that no one has posted any comments or looked at the save as yet.
I was busy finishing my lengthy report on Adventure 9. :blush: And now I'm busy reading all the other reports... :lol:


An early war will be necessary, so much seems to be clear. Question is, how early and with what main attack unit?

a) Axes (if we have metal). Pro: Can be done very early. Con: We will lose a lot of units; even against archers out in the open, odds are not great.

b) Keshiks. Pro: Probably fewer losses. Con: Technology wise, we need to take the detour to HBR; and the war needs to be started later, against better prepared foes.

c) Swordsmen. Pro: Fewer losses, probably even fewer than with keshiks (free combat I plus 10% city attack). Con: Needs iron; comes similarly late as keshisk.

d) Catapults. Pro: Probably the best city attack unit we have with our variant; we can even attack capitals with them. Con: War comes very late; we will have to face a lot more units, and better; we cannot really attack Cyrus, as he will have elephants by then.


Any pros/cons or other options I've missed?

This decision can probably be postponed until we know if we have metal, and which of our neighbours have metal. But seeing how hemmed in we are, I guess option d) comes too late. If we knew we have iron, I'd favor c), but as it stands this is probably too much of a gamble.

Founding one or two more cities would be nice too, but the lands to our north are bad. Any new cities were probably only for grabbing resources, and with not much potential otherwise. I can't look at the save at the moment; is there a more fertile spot south of Karakorum?

-Kylearan
 
Kylearan said:
I was busy finishing my lengthy report on Adventure 9. :blush: And now I'm busy reading all the other reports... :lol:

What he said! Although by Sullla's own rules he should have been skipped by now :p. I think Sullla's strategy that he outlined earlier is the one to follow. Disrupt cyrus early with axes (and maybe keshiks) and hopefully capure elephant town. If not, then pillage the ivory and capital improvements. When we get construction hopefully we can finish the job without having to face elephants (and possibly have them for ourselves).
 
I think that we have to capture the Ivory city as quickly as possible, which means Axes and Spears if we have copper nearby.

After that, I would research straight towards Alphabet and trade/research our way to Construction. With Cats and Elephants we'll be able to start the real offensive.

What's the diplomatic situation at the moment? Does Cyrus have any close allies?

PS When worker finishes the cottage he is currently building (I am assuming he is building the cottage), preparing a road through the nearby forest towards Persian lands might be a good idea while he is in the area.
 
Kylearan said:
is there a more fertile spot south of Karakorum?

-Kylearan

Sure. There are 3 of them. One was settled by the Persians, one by the Japanese, and one by the Russians :lol:

I think I'm onboard for a quick war to get the ivory city with axes, and then getting to construction for elephants and cats.

Diplomatically, since Cyrus probably isn't going to like us after we take his city, we should do what we can to alienate him and ally with his enemies
 
soooo said:
What he said! Although by Sullla's own rules he should have been skipped by now :p .

Very true, and I hate to set a bad example for the team here. :cry: But it IS report day for one of the Adventures, and I haven't been in my apartment in the last 48 hours. Just made it back, and will play and post tonight.

Don't think this means you can slack off and take extra days on your turns in the future. ;) (Thanks to everyone for posting me some helpful thoughts here!)
 
(0) 1900BC OK, taking over this game for the first time... We only have two cities at the moment, and this game's on Epic speed, so things should go pretty fast here. First up, no offense to regoarrarr, but there is something more productive we can have Karakorum building than a warrior if it's at the happy limit: how about another worker?



I may swap off the lake tile after we discover Bronze Working, depending on the situation. If there is no copper in sight, I think a beeline for Horseback Riding and our unique unit will probably be the best plan. With no diplomacy to speak of as yet, that's really all I can do on this turn. Let's move forward.

(1) 1870BC Beshbalik to size 2, otherwise not much. I watch Cyrus' worker hook up a stone resource (could be interesting long-term).

(2) 1840BC Toku adopts Slavery, so we know what tech he has.

(4) 1780BC Bronze Working discovered, revolt to Slavery (1 turn of anarchy). There are two coppers in the north! :D



Unbelievably, we just managed to miss out on a bronze at Beshbalik. Argh! It's only two diagonal tiles from the city, but we won't be hitting 150 culture there anytime soon. As far as the other copper, I think the plan is definitely to put city #3 over there by the sheep. There are actually quite a few decent resources up there, although the land quality is not good. Longterm, we should be able to get value out of the north.

As far as our tech research, I pick Archery next. This is Emperor, and all that fog up in the north means barb units are going to stop popping up sooner rather than later. Not to mention the fact that Archery is a prerequisite for our glorious keshiks! (I'm thinking strongly about just heading to HBR after Archery. We can do nasty, nasty things with keshiks, and there's going to be quite a delay in getting copper hooked up. Not that we don't still need a metal of some kind - we do - but holding off the attack until we have keshiks looks like a better plan to me than trying to rush with axes, now that we know we won't have it for an extended time. Whew!)

(5) 1750BC Come out of anarchy, officially begin research into Archery (6 turns). As we have a worker due in 6 turns as well, we can then go straight onto an archer (and I think we'll need it for that insecure northern site). Worker heads to the grassland hill tile in range of our capital to begin mining it. I also send the second warrior in Karakorum up to Beshbalik, since I think the northern city is more likely to come under barb attack up there.

(6) 1720BC Beshbalik finishes obelisk and begins a (double-speed) granary - only 15 turns until we get the horses, gold, and deer in range. We can get good use out of all three, frankly. Capital expands borders!



At least we'll have easy access to some cities to attack a bit later on! :lol:

(7) 1690BC There's a barb archer popping up in the west. Hopefully he'll attack Toku, but I'm keeping an eye on it.

(9) 1630BC Peter completes Stonehenge. Umm, that was fast. Welcome to Emperor! :p

(10) 1600BC Archery finished. I make the executive decision to research Horseback Riding next. Yes, it's 31 turns, but... 1) this is Epic speed, not Normal, and 2) we don't need any other techs out there right now; the only one that would be potentially useful is Writing, but that would be a 13-turn delay, and 3) I say that we're the Mongols, and we're not going to tiptoe around with some pansy, library-building Writing tech! Let's get to keshiks early and FIGHT out way out of this cramped start! :hammer:

In other news, we now have a second worker. I send him up north to help develop Beshbalik (the first worker will go up there too once he finishes his current mining/road job). Karakorum will finish production on its current warrior (1 turn to go), then I'll pop out an archer for security, followed by settler. (Unless conditions change before then!)

(15) 1450BC And that's pretty much it. Nothing of interest happened in the last five turns.



Here's our civ. I've set Karakorum to zero growth, because anything further will just leave us in unhappiness. (We can grow to another size as soon as that gold resource gets hooked up at Beshbalik.) The mine will be done next turn at the capital (white circle), so a forest chop will be addded; we might want to swap production to a settler to get the full value out of that (the swap, chop, swap micro tactic). At Beshbalik, I was having the worker road to the gold tile, which I think is the most important one to hook up first there. (This is in yellow above; we can get to keshiks much faster by working the gold tile at Beshbalik; it will cripple growth temporarily, but it will probably by worth it for the +7 commerce/turn.) Finally, the warrior in the east (brown circle) is heading over to the forested hill tile to scout out the area and serve as barb patrol. There's also a barb archer poking around in the west near Beshbalik, so be careful!

Since regoarrarr played 15 turns instead of 20, I thought I would play 15, Zeviz could play 15, and then we'll be back to the usual 10 each after that. In other words, instead of 20/15/10, we'll be going 15/15/15, if that makes sense.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads12/RB21-BC-1450.Civ4SavedGame

Kylearan <<< on deck (10 turns)
sooooo
regoarrarr
Sullla
Zeviz <<< UP NOW (15 turns)
 
Top Bottom