RB21 - The Mongol Hordes

[regoarrarr]

So where do we want to put that 3rd city? I can't see a way to get the sheep, corn and copper unless we settle ON the copper.

Another option would be to settle 1S or 1SE of the copper, and let the sheep go to another city to the N that also gets the fish. Of those 2 sites, I'd favor 1S - remember that we're getting slow border pops via obelisk or library. The advantage of 1SE is that it's coastal (although they're both on fresh water due to the lake)

Some other reasons to favor 1SE is that it trades 3 desert for 3 coast (good!) and will also have wines once we Cyrus a bit. The disadvantage is that it won't get the corn till we pop the border

 

[Kylearan]

The copper locations are really a bummer! I had hoped we would have copper at our poor capital; maybe we'll have iron at least, to be discovered sometimes later...

I fully agree with the decision to research HBR; seeing our situation, we should make as much use as we can of our UU.



-Kylearan

 

[Zeviz]

That copper location is annoying.

I'll be able to play it tomorrow or thursday evening. Meanwhile, I have several questions:

1. Where should we put 3rd city?

My choise would be either SW of Copper for immediate copper access, or SWW of Copper (NE of Oasis) to be closer to the capital. Since waiting for a border expansion sounds like a bad idea, I guess SW of Copper is better for us. (Placing city further east would put it even further from the capital, wasting more worker turns to build roads and causing more logistics problems during Cyrus war.)

2. Should I start training Settler as soon as the Archer completes, or do we need more military first?

 

[regoarrarr]

Yeah actually SW of the copper is a pretty good spot - it will get an oasis, corn and copper, and will be a decent city.

I think I'd probably build another archer, and start the settler when we get to size 5 (hopefully timed up with the mine on the gold increasing our happy cap, though I don't know if that's even realistic)

 

[Kylearan]

Hi,

I also think the SW spot is probably the best location. I would start to build a settler immediately after the archer completes, as we have to move fast against the emperor AIs, but then I often play very risky in the opening game which is not everyone's cup of tea... But we still have the whip, if the barbs become too dangerous.

-Kylearan

 

[Sullla]

That southwest location looks good to me too. I was thinking the tile southeast of the copper would be a nice spot, but then I realized on second glance that such a city would be choked by Persian culture across the water. Not good.

The proposed location's going to have a lot of desert and peak tiles, but so be it. Corn and copper in the first ring will be a big plus, and we can always use it as a pure military pump while other cities do more important things. A city with poor land that does nothing but crank military for ages on end can be a big plus, I've often found.

 

[Zeviz]

The consensus seems to be to found the 3rd city 1SW of copper. Votes on whether we should train an extra archer are evenly split, so I am going to go with Kylearan's view and start training settler right away. "The one who doesn't risk, doesn't win."

The plans for my turnset will be to finish the archer and start settler in Karakum, finish Granary and train Archers in Beshbalik, mine the gold, start road towards next city, and continue research towards HBR as quickly as possible.

1450(0) I move Beshbalik's citizen from grasslands to plains forest to make sure Granary completes before growth.

IBT: Barb archer is approaching Beshbalik from south-west, preventing me from starting road on the gold hill.

1420(1) Worker has to start roading deer to avoid wasting time. A warrior from Beshbalik move out to meet the Archer in the forest.

IBT: Jewdaism is founded in Pasagadae!
Barb Archer moves away.

1390BC(2) I move warrior onto gold hill and he finds himself next to barb archer.
Karakorum finishes archer, who goes north to help protect Beshbalik and starts Settler(13), while still working both cottages. (Cutting a turn off settler production doesn't seem worth the cost of not working a cottage for 12 turns.)

Archer goes to Beshbalik and will get there just in time to help stop barb archer if that archer captures gold hill.

Worker finished mine last turn and, after completing a road, will start roading towards copper city site.

I also reconfigure Beshbalik for faster growth (granary in 3, growth in 4).

IBT: Barb archer captures Gold Hill, but is down to 0.8 health.

1360BC(3) Workers work, armies march, cities build.

1330BC(4) Another barb archer appears. This one is to north-east of Beshbalik. Barb archer went up to 1.9 health and promoted C1, so I don't risk attacking him with our warrior. Our archer reaches the city. Instead I hide the woker in the city and let the cottage be pillaged.

IBT: Barb archer pillages cottage.

1300BC(5) Beshbalik completes Granary and starts Archer(10). Warrior moves out onto forested hill to prevent the 2nd barb archer from cutting the road. Archer fortifies in the city.

IBT: It turns out there was a warrior underneath that archer. Our warrior kills the archer, but loses to warrior. And there are 2 more Archers and a Warrior coming. This is beginning to feel like Epic 4.

1270BC(6) Karakarum interrupts Settler with Archer(6). Worker starts alternate road to Beshbalik.

I whip out a second archer at Beshbalik. Without ability to heal via promotions, we'll need at least 2 archers to stop this assault. I also notice that Granary in Beshbalik didn't seem to have any effect. The city is down to 1 food in the box. The only good thing is that the city expanded the borders, so there is now extra 20% cultural defense.

1240BC(7) Southern worker goes to help build new Beshbalik road.

1180BC(9) One of the workers is prepairing to road the gold. Seeling that Beshbalik situation is stabilizing, I again switch Archer and Settler in Karakarum's queue.

1150BC(10) Cyrus founds Arabela on the spot where we were planning to put copper town. We wouldn't have beaten him to it even if the settler's build was never interrupted.

I think this is a good time to stop and consider out options. I also see Toku's borders to the west, so we are completely hemmed in with our 2 cities. And with Pasagadae Cyrus' Holy City, it's going to start stealing tiles from Karakarum, instead of the other way around. What can we do to fight out of this hole?

I guess we could still found a 3rd city - a total iceball in the north, whose only useful tiles would be furs and copper, both in 2nd ring. However, it seems we'll have to prioritize commerce and try to do something with Keshiks with our 2 cities. The settler is still in the queue, but has to probably be removed and city reconfigured to stop growth.
The save.

 

[rho21]

I also notice that Granary in Beshbalik didn't seem to have any effect. The city is down to 1 food in the box.

This is to remove the need for the micromanagement you performed on Turn 0. I believe the Civ 4 rules make the granary give you something like half the food you put in since you built the granary for the first growth after building it.

I'm sure Sullla could tell you more.

 

[sooooo]

Can't look at the save yet (am at work), but ...

This is going to be tough. The only way we can get copper quicker than HBR is if we found a city with copper in the 1st ring of the new city, and that city will certainly suck. Let's not do that. The best remaining city site is on the ice to claim the sheep, silver and fish. The alternative is claiming the sheep and marble, which will be closer to the capital but not have as much food.

I propose we: (a) Finish the settler, and send him out to the fish+silver+sheep tile, (b) Build some chariots and tech towards HBR and (c) Declare war prematurely on Cyrus to pillage his copper with chariots and be a general nuisance to him. Can't look at the save right now but I hope his new city is his only source of copper. It would be really bad to allow him to build many spearmen.

 

[Kylearan]

Damn Cyrus. His head it shall be, then!

I agree with sooooo's plan, as I think a third city will pay for itself mid-term, and then we have to prevent Cyrus from getting copper.

Should Zeviz play the remaining 5 turns, or should I continue to play next (after discussions, of course)?

-Kylearan

 

[regoarrarr]

The problem with ice city is that it's going to need an expansion to be worth anything, since all 3 of its resources are 2nd ring. Is it even worth the maintenance costs for that?

Of course, our other options aren't very good. They would seem to include in the NW to get that other copper. But if we put it where we can also get the spices, then the copper is 2nd ring.

Or in the far north to get fur (another happiness).

On the bright side, at least Cyrus built us a holy city

 

[Kylearan]

Hi,

I've just taken a look at the save myself, and I have to retract my earlier statement about that third city at the sheep/silver/fish location. It will be hard to defend, and is so far away from our capital that it might delay our HBR research too much. This spot should be settled on eventually, but not now I think. The same goes for the other northern locations, like the fur spot. I think our best bet (and only hope...) is to use the two cities we have to pump military, and to acquire our third and fourth city by force.

-Kylearan

 

[Tarkhan]

With all these pushy AI's gobbling up squares with their culture, I predict only in the not so distant future

 

[regoarrarr]

I think I agree. The question then becomes, with 8 turns left on the settler, is it worth completing the settler and just stashing him. I'd lean towards yes. With 18 turns to HBR, it's going to be 30 turns or so at least before we're going to war, and with no metals, we can't even build any accompanying spears / axes...

 

[sooooo]

I think I agree. The question then becomes, with 8 turns left on the settler, is it worth completing the settler and just stashing him. I'd lean towards yes. With 18 turns to HBR, it's going to be 30 turns or so at least before we're going to war, and with no metals, we can't even build any accompanying spears / axes...

Well, I think it would be better to build archers then chariots in Moscow as soon as the horses are hooked up. I don't think we should wait for a full compliment for HAs before we start the war because we need to pillage that copper ASAP.

EDIT: We used a simliar tactic in this thread.

 

[Sullla]

I also notice that Granary in Beshbalik didn't seem to have any effect. The city is down to 1 food in the box.

Nope, I could have told you this wouldn't work. You still have to fill up the food box once naturally (after building a granary) before its effects kick in. This was done to prevent tedius micromanagement where you make sure to complete a granary one turn before growth, Civ3-style. You can still do it that way, but you gain nothing. Yes, that's why I wasn't working the cottage tile at Beshbalik on my turn.

Things look bad, but take heart friends! I believe we can still pull this one out. I say drop the settler build, focus on some archers to protect Beshbalik from the barbs, and prepare for a keshik onslaught in the imminent future. You know how bad the AI is at defending against an early attack... We should monitor Cyrus' copper, and (as others have said) think about declaring war to cut if off when he gets close to hooking it up.

Zeviz should finish out 5 more turns to get us on an even number. Keep hanging in there, everyone. If we can capture just Pasargadae and Cyrus' copper city, we'll be in a world of better shape.

 

[Zeviz]

I'll play 5 more turns this evening. I guess the decision is to scrap the settler and try to connect horses ASAP while researching towards HBR. I'll start training workers in Karakarum to take advantage of high food surplus. We'll need the workers for chopping Keshiks, connecting resources and building military roads towards copper city.

For worker actions, the one on gold tile will connect gold, while the one building road will finish it and connect horses, perhaps with help of a new worker.

 

[Zeviz]

1150BC(10) (continued) As discussed, I replace Settler with Worker(9). (Beshbalik has 2 archers already and will get 1 more in 5 rounds, so the shortage of workers is more urgent problem at the moment. I move one of Beshbalik's Archers towards a forest SW of barb warrior to prevent him from pillaging the road. The warrior who was watching Copper site moves south-east to be able to see any worker Cyrus might bring in to connect his Copper.

1120BC(11) Cyrus adopts Organized Religion. Arabela is protected by 2 Archers, one of them is a C1, the other unpromoted.

1190BC(12) Barb warrior suicides against our archer and the archer goes to protect gold hill. The hill is roaded, so second worker will help connect gold faster.

1060BC(13) Our scout sees Washington found another town close to copper on the border between him and Cyrus. Let's hope he will get the cultural control of that copper. I have to drop science down to 90%, because we have 0$, but gold mine should fix this.

1030BC(14) Scout sees that Susa has 2 archers, one of them CG.

1000BC(15) Gold mine is complete. Working it stops Beshbalik's growth, but brings HBR down to 10 turns. Beshbalik Archer->Archer(8). Horses should be online by the time that one completes. 2nd worker goes to road and connect horses.

Our warrior still sees no sign of workers anywhere near Arabella. Cyrus' cities are very lightly protected so far.

Karakarum should probably swap its production to Archer for a turn to grow, before finishing the worker.

The situation might not be as desperate as it looks if we can capture Arabella before Cyrus connects his copper.

Cyrus is boasting about his Archers, Peter - Chariot, HC - Axemen, Toku - Chariotn

Cyrus is disliked by most AIs besides Washington(Pleased) and Elizabeth(Cautious).

The save.

 

[Kylearan]

Hi,

Cyrus is disliked by most AIs

That sounds good!

I see the game, and will play either in a few hours, or tomorrow.

I'm actually looking forward to the upcoming war. I'm no fan of very early wars that are waged simply because it's so easy to screw the AI that way. However, this will be the first early war I'm participating in which is forced upon us by the situation at hand, which is absolutely necessary because we are so hemmed in. Fun stuff!

-Kylearan

 

[Kylearan]

IT: I slip in one turn of archer production in Karakorum to let it grow, but micromanage the city for max commerce during that turn.

985BC: One worker starts to build a pasture on the horses. The other worker, finished with mining the gold hill, cannot move to the horses and start to improve it in one turn. So he moves to the (roaded) plains forest tile which lies on the way and starts to chop it for one turn, but will move on the horses to help with the pasture next turn.

955BC: Arbela's borders expand, and our warrior is no longer able to see its defenses, or the copper tile.

940BC: Cyrus converts to Buddhism! Now Peter, Huayna and he form a religious block, which is a bit unfortunate.
The pasture is complete, and a road to connect it gets started.

925BC: Karakorum completes the worker and continues to build an archer, albeit at max commerce. The worker moves to a forest to chop it, to speed up training our first keshik in 4 turns when we will discover HBR. I don't think roads to the enemy are our first priority, as keshiks ignore terrain movement costs.

910BC: Horses are online now. The two workers move to the northern deer to improve it, so Beshbalik can grow while still working the gold mine. This tile probably needs an archer to guard it against barbarians, but I think the four food will be worth it.
Huayna Capac is the first to know Writing, so I sign an open borders agreement with him.

895BC: The Great Lighthouse gets built somewhere.
An archer is completed, which puts us over the free unit limit, and we have to pay 1gpt unit upkeep now.
Huanya now has open borders with Washington and Toku(!), too.

865BC: Horseback Riding comes in! I select Writing as our next research project, although Iron Working would be a good idea too, or even Agriculture in case the corn at Arbela which we'll soon possess needs improvement.

Build orders are switched to Keshiks, and cities maximized for hammers. Karakorum has the choice between working the 1f1h1c wine tile, or a cottage for 1 hammer less, but more commerce. I had set it to work the wine tile for the extra hammer before saving, but maybe we should work the cottage instead.


We should think about disbanding our scout, to save unit upkeep.

-Kylearan