RB21 - The Mongol Hordes

[sooooo]

Very nice turns Sullla and Zeviz. Zeviz, could you please upload the save? It's easier to work out trades when you can talk to the AIs and see what they lack.

If we can trade HBR away for the techs we want (IW, mathematics mainly) and not trade away Alphabet then definitely do that. That would allow us a clean run at literature. I don't think I've ever lost a game in which I've built the Great Library.

 

[Sullla]

Basically I concur with what everyone else is saying. Lots of good advice floating around from our team members.

As far as Heroic Epic purposes go, I'm not sure if it's unlocked by experience or level, but I think it's unit "level". This game is not meant to rule out that particular wonder, so if necessary we can promote ONE unit to open up the Heroic Epic. That unit, however, must fortify in the capital and can never take part in any combat again.

Techwise, either Literature or Construction would be good techs to research soon. (Lit first, because we'd want to get a head start on Great Library.) But I want to throw out Calendar as a research choice as well. We have 4 different Calendar happiness resources, and no Stonehenge to worry about. There's a good chance we can trade for it from the AIs - but keep in mind we'll want that tech soon for ourselves too!

 

[regoarrarr]

What are people's thoughts regarding getting a few scientists up and running somewhere to try and get a GS. We could get our hands on Philosophy that way (by researching Drama / Meditation).

I know we've got a lot of other things to do, but I thought I would bring it up for discussion...

ETA: Actually, our first GP will probably be an Engineer from the Pyramids, right? In which case, we're not in such a hurry to get to Literature, since we can rush the G. Library. So I think I'd rather go to Construction first and lay a on someone else

 

[Zeviz]

That's a good point about engineer from Pyramids. (Our capital has so little production that Engineer is probably the only way we can finish a wonder anyway.) However, can we delay the Great Library by about 70 turns it will take for a Great Engineer to be born?

For trades, I guess I'll get IW, Math, Masonry (for Construction), Sailing (for Calendar), and any more advanced tech (Currency, Construction) we'll be able to get with HBR alone and will self-research anything else. I am currently researching Agriculture, which is the only old tech we really need. We can probably largely ignore religious branch, because we can't use Theocracy, don't need Org. Rel (this isn't builder's game), and probably shouldn't adapt a religion any time soon for political reasons.

About civics, should I switch to Representation right away for immediate happiness boost in all 5 cities and future research boost from Great Library/specialists? (I prefer Representation over Monarchy, because we don't have to keep our troops poliecing the cities and can still get happiness, not even talking about extra beakers.)

PS I am attaching the savefile, if sombody still wants a look at it before I play out the trades this evening.

 

[sooooo]

What are people's thoughts regarding getting a few scientists up and running somewhere to try and get a GS. We could get our hands on Philosophy that way (by researching Drama / Meditation).

I know we've got a lot of other things to do, but I thought I would bring it up for discussion...

ETA: Actually, our first GP will probably be an Engineer from the Pyramids, right? In which case, we're not in such a hurry to get to Literature, since we can rush the G. Library. So I think I'd rather go to Construction first and lay a on someone else

This is quite interesting. Going from the start of Zeviz's turns (I know he's played some already), we will get a GE in 73 turns as long as we don't persue a scientist. Now it will take a total of 24 turns to get the pre-reqs for the library: Alphabet (in 5), Poly (In 5) and literature (in 14). If we trade for poly that will bring the time down to 19 turns. Beshabalik will grow in 13 turns, and if we stagnate its growth will be our best hammer producer at 12 HPT. Library costs 525 hammers, so that's 43 turns. Only 5 (or 10 if we trade for poly) turns less than if we wait for an engineer. And it clogs up a city's production for over 40 turns too. Unless we build a settler, have him settle the marble+sheep, whip an obelisk, wait for the borders to pop and hook up marble, that will reduce it. But not by much because those things will take time. I've probably messed at least somethings up here, let me know.

So in conclusion, we should wait for a GE to build TGL. Research something else first, like Construction. If we can trade for Metal Casting we can whip a forge in Persepolis, hire an engineer and speed it up. This also means we can't hire any scientists to go lightbulbing any techs, but that's fine because we will have plenty of scientists after we build the thing!

 

[sooooo]

Thanks for uploading the save. Peter has horses so we prob shouldn't give him HBR. I think I would get Mathematics from Washington and IW from HC. EDIT: Oh, we can get IW for peace, so no need to give HBR to HC. He'd only trade it to his buddhist buddy peter anyway.

Also there's a trade to Elizabeth for Poly and Saling, pre-reqs for Literature and Calendar respectively. She'll throw in Agriculture too, but no point getting nearer the WFYABTA limit for 2 turns research. Yes she's the score leader, but HBR won't advance her financially too much and she's too far away to get into a war with yet.

 

[regoarrarr]

I'm not sure why we care about giving horses to Peter. We're going to be building elephants in the not too distant future, right? If so, then I want him to be building as many horse archers as he can - since elephants get a bonus vs. horse archers

 

[Zeviz]

I was going to post same thing as Regoar: Perhaps we should sell HBR to our next war target so that they build expensive horse archers instead of cheap charriots, both of which will fall easily to our elephants. Or are we going to have too few elephants to deal with the number of horse archers they are likely to send? (Elephants are even more expensive then Keshiks, and I'd rather not whip poor Karakarum any more.)

Also, are there any objections to adapting Representation for immediate happiness and future research bonus? Or should I go with more conventional Monarchy?

On that note, who should our next target be? Peter and Toku are best logistically. HC and Peter seem to have best lands. Toku isn't going to be a trading partner and I'd rather fight him before Samurai. If we attack either HC or Peter, the other one might join in. So I'd lean towards attacking Toku. (Which makes it less relevant to whom we sell HBR, since Toku doesn't do tech trading.)

 

[regoarrarr]

I think Representation is a no-brainer

 

[Zeviz]

310BC(6) (continued) Since there was no objection to Representation, I switch to it right away. The extra cost is only 1gpt for now and the cost will be recovered right away because extra happiness will remove unhappy citizen from Persepolis.

Now is the time for trades. First I take Iron Working and Masonry from Cyrus for peace.

And we find that our nearest source of iron is... That former mine near Persepolis. So our capital had no metals anywhere near it. Good thing we didn't gamble on Iron Working for our initial attack. Not only do we lack iron, everybody else has it, in some cases right next to the capital.

Next I buy Math from Washington for HBR. I see that no further techs are revealed, so no AIs know Currency, or Construction.

Amuzingly enough, Cyrus is still willing to trade with us. I'll buy Sailing for Writing from him a couple turns later.

Logistically, I notice Barbarian borders west of Beshbalik in the fog, so a Keshik is sent to investigate. I also rename our 13XP Keshik "Epic Hero". We should keep him alive to build Heroic Epic later. (If we have to promote him to build the building, perhaps we should keep him in the Heroic Epic city, to inspire the troops.)

295BC(7) We come out of Anarchy and I rearrange economy for peace. We have only 4 Workers for 5 cities, so I start one in Beshbalik, putting city into max production configuration. Persepolis might also have to train a Worker when it grows.

Epic Hero finishes healing and is sent to fully explore the northern tundra. One of the Workers in Beshbalik area starts building road towards the Deer to improve protection of that resource.

280BC(8) Workers work, cities build, armies march.

265BC(9) We learn Agriculture and start researching Construction. This project is expected to take 41 turns with research at 50% at -2gpt.

250BC(10) Arabella comes out of resistance and starts work on Granary.

Our Keshik finds a barb city with 2 CG archers pressed against Japanese border west of Beshbalik. Capturing this city might cost us 1 or 2 Keshiks and it's already choked by Japanese culture, so it might be better to leave it for Toku, unless we want to raze it for cash and a free worker.

We are now losing 4gpt at 50% research, so I'd suggest building cottages everywhere, including grassland near Beshbalik where worker is standing and replacing Persepolis farms with cottages.

We could still sell Writing to Cyrus for Sailing if we want. Everybody else knows Writing already, so this might be a good idea.

When Beshbalik completes the Worker, we should probably put it into max growth mode to let it grow into newly discovered happiness.

We've made amazing military progress, but now need to bring our economy under control and move on to next target. (Perhaps trying to cripple Toku before he starts training Samurai.)

It's taking 6 turns to heal our most wounded Keshik even when resting in our city, something we should keep in mind for future wars. When these Keshiks have healed, we could send them to explore Peter's and HC's lands to take advantage of Open Borders.

 

[Zeviz]

Accidental double post.

 

[Kylearan]

Hi,

very interesting metal distribution on this map! I'd say we were very lucky to be hemmed in so hard so early. If we had peacefully expanded to four cities or so, and then discovered we had no metal...

I cannot play today or tomorrow, only on Wednesday. While this (barely) fits into the 24/48 rule, maybe it would be better to ask for a swap instead. Sooooo, maybe you could play first, and I'll play after you this round?

-Kylearan

 

[sooooo]

OK, I will try to play tonight.

 

[sooooo]

OK, very uninteresting turns. Since our cities are small due to having just been captured (or whipped), I set most cities to grow as much as possible. There was not much point increasing production, because libraries aren't much use yet when your city is making 1 beaker per turn. Gotta grow first.

IHT: Everything is fine, hit enter.

T1 (235 BC) - We are the 5th most powerful civ. Epic Hero is insulted by this, and kills a barb archer to prove his might. No XP though because he is above 10 already. I whip a granary at arbella and get sailing and polytheism from Cyrus. He's not going to last long enough to care about the WFYABTA limit



T2 (220 BC) - Liz asks for Alphabet. I explain to her about rose gardens. Arbela starts an archer while it grows. Should have been an obelisk. I'm not sure who built the cottage on the plains 1N of Karakorm, but it needs to be farmed or it will block irrigation to the other tiles in the second ring north. I leave it for now. Practically everyone has calendar. We can't get it without breaking alphabet monopoly, so we wait.

T5 (175 BC) - Iron hooked up, corn farmed.

T6 (160 BC) - Cyrus explains to us how mighty buddhism is, and wants us to convert. I say no. Beshbalik finishes a worker, starts a settler. I think it's important we get that fish/sheep/silver site before anyone else does. The hammers from the settler in Kara must have worn off. Open borders with Washington because no one minds him that much. Taoism FIDL. That's pretty early. Probably Elizabeth.

T7 (145 BC) - Cyrus is a fickle character. He converts to Hinduism! I thought buddhism was so mighty? Guess he'll be saying the same thing about hinduism in a few turns. We are now his worst enemy - I don't blame him for this one.

T8 (130 BC) - Washington converts to Taoism. He is not the founder.

T9 (115 BC) - Copper is hooked up. I finally realise Arbela is not generating any culture and slip an obelisk in front of the archer. Shouldn't make much difference because it has enough tiles to work before it needs a border pop.

T10 (100 BC) - Not a lot.



That's it. Our cities are a bit bigger. Karakorum's cottages are a bit more mature. I'm chopping its library from a forest outside the BFC. Nothing much else to report. We still have the monopoly on Alphabet.

 

[regoarrarr]

Looking good. Kylearan is up now and then me afterwards, right?

With Lizzie having just researched Currency, we can send her HBR for her 210 gold. We might want to get Priesthood, since that will see who all has CoL (at least Huayna does - Macchu Picchu is the holy city for Confucianism)

It seems that we are losing the battle for the gems SE of Pasarg - it's up to 46% Incan, and I seem to recall it being in the 30s last time I looked.

 

[Zeviz]

... I whip a granary at arbella and get sailing and polytheism from Cyrus. He's not going to last long enough to care about the WFYABTA limit
...

Not sure if you know this, but WFYABTA limit is affected by all trades, regardless of whom you trade with. I've had situations where, for example, a trade with HC made Quin think that I was too advanced.

Unless we want to run Organized Religion, let's avoid Monotheism-> Theology-> Divine Right branch to delay the "too advanced" limit.

I'm not sure who built the cottage on the plains 1N of Karakorm, but it needs to be farmed or it will block irrigation to the other tiles in the second ring north. I leave it for now.

Sorry about that. I prefer lake tiles to farmed plains, but I guess we might need those plains farms for war-time production.

Practically everyone has calendar. We can't get it without breaking alphabet monopoly, so we wait.

I also think it's a good idea to avoid selling Calendar until we are ready to build Great Library.

I think it's important we get that fish/sheep/silver site before anyone else does. The hammers from the settler in Kara must have worn off.

Since our economy is already hurting and our cities are far from happiness limit, would it be better to avoid founding any more cities and get extra happiness from Calendar resources later?

 

[Sullla]

Looking at the save, I agree that we'll definitely want to grab that fish/sheep/silver location in the near future. It will be able to pay for itself quickly once we whip a granary and lighthouse. However, we need to wait a little bit longer before founding it, since we have some economic work to do in our captured cities first. Figure maybe building a settler about 20 turns or so down the road. I think the location will be pretty safe from AI poaching until then.

Zeviz is right about the trading limit, so be careful about what we send back and forth! It's an overall restriction, not determined on a per-civ basis. Don't worry about the moves made so far, but we probably want to avoid trading for uber-cheap backwards techs if we can avoid it in the future.

Nothing wrong with obelisk in Arbela, but in the future, let's try to spead Judaism in new cities for border expansions rather than building obelisks. We'll probably get a Prophet down the road eventually for a Jewish shrine.

As far as specializing our cities, here's what I'm thinking:

Karakorum: commerce all the way (no shields, little food), probably Oxford here later on
Beshbalik: shields/military pump (not enough food to support cottages)
Pasargadae: cottage cheese fest (cut down all the jungle, replace with all cottages)
Persepolis: poor cottage terrain, should use for shields/military (I think Heroic Epic should go here! would be appropriate!)
Arbela: prime candidate for whipping (corn); mix in a few grassland cottages but otherwise mostly configure for production
Fish town (once founded): pure commerce

That's how I see it, anyway. Barring some kind of major change in diplomacy, Toku will be our next target sometime in the middle ages with cats and elephants. His lands will be low-maintenance since they are near to our capital, and they will consolidate our control of the north. Until then, let's hunker down and do some building.

EDIT (replying to regoarrarr below): Whenever we feel like it. He won't be able to stay in the tech race anymore, so probably sometime in the middle ages we'll be ready to absorb more cities and finish the job. Don't sweat it for now, his time will come.

 

[regoarrarr]

At what point do we want to take the last 2 cities of Cyrus?

 

[Kylearan]

Got it, and will play tomorrow. Don't have much time today, so my participation in the discussion will have to wait until tomorrow, too.

-Kylearan

 

[Kylearan]

IT: Tricky diplomatic situation we have here. We could trade for incense from Elizabeth for some happiness, but (I think) she's worst enemy of Huayna Capac who in turn is a direct neighbour and already complains about our close borders. Is an extra happiness worth the risk of trashing relations with a neighbour we want to have peace with mid-term? I'm not sure, but then she also has these 210 pieces of gold lying around uselessly, so...I give her our only corn for incense, then sell her HBR for the money. She would have put Meditation and Priesthood on top of that deal, but I didn't take the techs because of the WFYABTA limit (these can be researched in 1 turn each later). Finally, with the resource deal done, there's no reason not to sign open borders as well. Research is increased to 100%.

I ponder about disbanding our warrior to save unit cost, but decide against it. We're surrounded by potential enemies, so might need even him in case war breaks out.

Beshbalik pauses on the settler production, and starts to build a library first. With its gold hill, this will be useful. Some cities are set to grow faster, now that we have an extra happiness.

85BC: Lots of American horse archers and swordsmen move through our lands. I wonder what Washington is up to? Both Toku and Peter can be the target.

We did not get a "you traded with our worst enemy" malus with Huayna. Good. So seeing that Elizabeth has 3gpt to spare, and that we are expansive, I sell her our only deer for some extra income.

70BC: Hm...I never noticed captured wonders do not give you culture. (Can you tell I play the game more intuitively than by poring over details and crunching numbers? ) The consequence is that Persepolis only produces 1 cpt. Its cow tile, which borders both Cyrus' and Huayna's lands, are a full 0% Mongolian.

55BC: Karakorum completes Library, and (for lack of something better) starts to build a spearman. All these horse archers in our territory make me nervous!

40BC: Peter demands HBR.



Now what to do...we do not want to wage war against him anytime soon, and do not want to trade with him for techs either. If he had demanded Alphabet, I had refused. But seeing that we have a "close borders" malus already, I think it might be helpful to give in and get another "helped us" bonus. He gets the tech.

25BC: Christianity gets founded somewhere.

10BC: Huayna demands we convert to Buddhism. Relations worsen.

5AD: Persepolis completes library, starts aqueduct. If we will rush the Great Library with an engineer, maybe we can hand-build the Hanging Gardens in Persepolis? Or use it as a back-up wonder to rush, in case something goes wrong with our Great Library plans and Persepolis is too busy building units.

20AD: Peter demands we cancel all our deals with America. What is it with all the demands during my turns?!? I refuse.

35AD: Buddhism spreads in Beshbalik.



We still have our Alphabet monopoly. Huayna has 100 gold now, but I don't think that's enough to sell him HBR. On the other hand, we are back to 30% research again...

Washington's stack has turned around, and sits now at Arbella. He could declare and take the city in one turn if he wanted to...I've moved an archer into the city (which is on a hill as well) to make it a little harder for him, just in case.

-Kylearan