RB21 - The Mongol Hordes

regoarrarr said:
I will play either tonight or tomorrow night. I took a brief look at the save, but didn't look too quickly. Do we think we have enough to finish off Toku?

Yes, definitely. After all the healing of course :p. I only lost 2 cats and an elephant in my turnset. IMO we should go after the city West of Kyoto next - probably called Tokyo. Edo can wait until we have a settler ready to replace it. WW was negligible, no need for peace yet.

regoarrarr said:
Cyrus has longbows - same thing with him - can we finish him off after Toku, or do we need to wait till we get something better?

Hopefully once we've done with Toku we will have CS and be able to trade it for machinery. Then we can get macemen for Cyrus. Even if we don't, elephants are just as good vs longbows. With enough suicide cats we can take on any unit with any unit. I advise you build more cats than elephants.
 
Hi,

Sullla said:
But superior every single time, Kylearan? Surely you are overstating the argument.
Yes, I'll grant you that. ;) That was exaggerated and poor rhetoric on my part. Make it "most of the time" instead of "every single time". :)


Regarding regoarrarr's questions, I agree with sooooo - even without maces, we should be able to deal with Cyrus if we have enough catapults. And we should deal with him, after his culture bomb...

I'm still waiting for Toku's huge surprise stack to appear and make a counter-attack... :scan: :confused:

-Kylearan
 
sooooo said:
Then we can get macemen for Cyrus. Even if we don't, elephants are just as good vs longbows.

Oh, make that "almost as good vs longbows" because I forgot macemen get the free combat 1 promotion. But it's not the power of the attacking units that matters in war, it's the number of siege weapons you bring along. Actually that's another reason I like to go for grenadiers and cannons before rifles. Cannons are my second-favourite unit in the game, behind the jaguar.
 
Rifling+nationalism is noticably slower to get to compared to military tradition, which in turn is slower than chemistry. They all have their merits and I wouldn't rate any of the three as overall superior, as it depends on the game state:

Rifle draft is ideal for an empire with high food/commerce, low production cities. Or if you're playing england, when the redcoat bonuses more than make up for the draftees being only level 1.

Cavalry will wreck an opponent very fast, if you know you're going to catch them without rifling for just 10 or so turns after the cavs are ready, you can cripple them in that time.

Grenadiers are a quick and smooth transition up from a medieval war, where you probably have good production cities but are not so hot on research, and a good supply of CR macemen to upgrade. They can be countered by sufficient numbers of knights and cats though, cutting off horses/iron needs to be a priority.
 
Nice turnset, with the capture of 3 wonders and early disconnection of resources. :)

Do we want to extort some techs for peace from Toku while our troops are healing? Maybe we can do that after taking the next city. It takes our troops so long to heal that a 10-turn peace isn't going to be much of a delay.

Also, if we want a scientist for an Academy, we have to hire 2 scientists right away. As soon as Kyoto comes out of resistance, it will be generating 6gpps towards merchants and artists per turn, so even a city with 2 scientists will not be able to overtake it.

RE-EDIT: Never mind. It looks like border expansion at Arbella already brought in the Sheep at Turfan. I guess I should look at the screenshots more carefully.
 
Hey guys... long time lurker, first time poster.

That H.E. keshik that's fortifying in your capital... would it be more in the spirit of the game to disband him entirely (call it a "retirement" to provide an honor guard for the palace)... that way, you would in no way have a promoted unit mingling with and benefiting the Mongols? (i.e. If you ever decide to go Hereditary Rule, he'd be providing :) )

This wouldn't negate the H.E. once it's been built, correct? And you can fill the vacancy in your army by building a new, green unit to replace him. Somebody who can actually go out there and FIGHT for the Mongol cause instead of sweeping the palace floors!

Great game - I've been enjoying RBC succession games for quite a while - best of luck to your hordes!
 
heh, was not getting promoted to 10 ex units a cheating on a first place?
Cronical cheaters :)
 
Mutineer said:
heh, was not getting promoted to 10 ex units a cheating on a first place?
Cronical cheaters :)

Hey, even I'm not that judgemental :eek: ;)

Heh-heh, seriously it is a really minor bend of the rules. I'm a fan of letting a variant's unintended consequences play out, but I have to admit this game is pretty extreme and they deserve the HE :cool:

Darrell
 
lurker spam:

I personally tend to play like sulla does down to some pretty scary similarities in games I seen him post.

To call sulla a warmonger.... um I'm confused lol.

Anyway back to the bicke- erm... discussions!!!

:D

Gonna be a tough game for sure.

Cheers!
-Liq
 
Turn 0: Everything looks good. I up the cow for gpt deal with Peter. I know we talked about this, but he's expansive - I bet he's not at a health cap now. We're now getting 4gpt. Plus he's our bud, man! He loves us, and Huayna is warming up.

We have lots of woundeds in Kyoto. Plan is to heal them up and push west. In the meantime, send a few units over to Edo. Raze it and replace on the coast.

I switch Turfan from Lighthouse to workboat. Now that it has Buddhism, it will expand in 9 turns - we can work the fish. I hire a citizen, which at 3bpt and 2cpt (thanks Sistine!) is not that bad a choice, and it gets the workboat out 3 turns sooner. Hire an engineer in Persepolis.

(1) 815 AD: Mostly just moving and healing. We really need some more axes - we're awfully horse-heavy and Toku does have some spears. I take the archer guarding the gold mine and head him to Kyoto where he can do some garrisoning. I leave the archer guarding the deer as a barb watcher.

(2) 830 AD: In what was probably Japanese :smoke: Toku sends out his spear near Edo to attack our slightly wounded elephant. The spear did have 96% odds (though I wonder why the cat stacked with the elephant didn't defend?), and it does win. But now it's at 1.4/4 health, and I smack it with a cat on my turn. The :smoke: is that whereas having that spear in the garrison would have made it impossible for me to smack these archers with horse units, now I can. The cats will bombard for a few turns, but with only 2 archers as a garrison, Edo will likely fall without further loss. I queue up a settler in Beshbalik, due in 10.

(3) 845 AD: I think the forces that we have in place are enough to take out Toku, so (most of) the new builds are going to Persepolis to get that lousy back-stabbing Cyrus. I mean, c'mon - we're at peace and he STEALS our tiles, depriving our hard-working Persepolian citizens from working in the fields! He must be punished. Hey, winners write the history books, right?!?!? :lol:

I whip the workboat in Turfan. It has plenty of happy, and with the fish now (instead of 12 turns), it will grow much faster. Western advance group meets up with the new Japanese capital of Tokyo. Cat, spear, and 4 archers (3 with CG1) - 50% defense. Cats will begin bombarding next turn. Also an axe and a spear there - 3 elephants and 2 keshiks still healing in Kyoto. Where are the medics!



(4) 860 AD: Bombing, moving and such. Workboat->Lighthouse in Turfan.

(5) 875 AD: Huayna has Vassalage - so he will be getting longbows soon. I notice he has an extra gpt, so I re-up the deal. Osaka's borders expand and we now have gems.



Well, THAT'S annoying. 2 cats to soften things up, but then the 2nd elephant dies at good odds. Wait til next turn... I bombard some more at Tokyo - still archers there, but for how long...

(6) 890 AD: Toku sneaks a CG1 archer OUT of Tokyo to go to... dunno. But he didn't make it - stomped by a newly healed keshik on his way to Tokyo. Still no 'bows in Tokyo. I notice that the longbow in Edo is promoted to Shock - should do well against elephants....:smoke:

(7) 905 AD: I attack again in Edo. Maybe it's :smoke: on my part and I should have waited for more force, but at this point I want to try and go fast before we see more longbows. There is one longbow left with 0.2/6 :(

(8) 920 AD: Healing.... Longbow on top in Tokyo now, but only one. The forces are in place to make a move next turn.

(9) 935 AD: IBT Peter comes calling, asking us to cancel our deals with the vile American. Whatever you say, boss. Islam FIADL. A 2nd unit appears in Edo :(. It's a chariot! :lol: My full strength elephant kills the longbow, but there's only 60% odds to kill the chariot, so I wait. Still only one bow in Tokyo, so here we go.

Cat bombards
Cat withdraws
Cat dies (but takes the 'bow to 1.5/6)
Elephant dies to spear
Elephant mauls archer * 2
Keshik cleans up longbow
Axe takes out cat
Spear takes out wounded spear



I notice that Kagoshima was founded up in our north by the furs.

(10) 950 AD: Elephant beats chariot and Edo is ours. I debate whether or not to keep it. It is off the coast, but it's not in a bad position either, and I don't like destroying the village 2W, which is where it would have to go. I guess Peter's Islamic missionary will have to go somewhere else... :lol: We get a worker out of the deal. I send him to the plains hill to chop - by the time the chop comes in we should have a city over there (settler due in 2). I'd put New Edo 1S of the horses.

:

There is an engineer in Kyoto. If we want our next person to come out of Persepolis (and be 100% engineer), we should fire him. 46 turns to an engineer in Persepolis. As it stands, in 28 turns, we'll have a great person in Kyoto (odds are for Merchant). Actually, even if we fire him, we'll have a great person in 42 turns in Kyoto. In that case, it may make sense to fire the engineer in Persepolis

Settler in Besh, due in 2. My vote is 1S of the horses (2W of the ruins). I wouldn't be opposed to settling on the ruins, though if that were the case, I wish you'd have told me 10 minutes ago, so I could have just kept the city :)

Worker actions - sorry if there was :smoke: - I confess to not knowing what to do with them sometimes. I tried to fit in with the overall city plan laid out a few pages back. We're roading / mining the silver N of Turfan. Our 2nd copper near Besh could be hooked up if we felt like it.

Military: The western folks are healing in Tokyo. I'd vote for just pushing on to the city to the west. I believe it's called Satsuma, though that far away, it may not be worth keeping, so in that case, it might be fine as Toku's since if we raze it, it will likely be settled by Liz. There is the beginnings of a stack in Persepolis - we can probably declare on Cyrus within a few turns. He currently has 310 gold, so we could probably extort some of that before we do so. Our homeland security is a bit weak - a single archer in most of our homeland. An axe and a cat I took off goto but they were heading towards Persepolis, where there currently are 2 axes, 3 cats and an elephant, with another cat and 'phant rolling off the lines next turn. Regardless of whether we take Satsuma or not, we should raze Kagoshima before signing peace.

Tech: CS came in on my last turn. I set us to Paper (nobody has it) but at 0% science so we could talk it over. CS will not get us Machinery from either HC or Peter, but Peter will trade us Feudalism if we kick in 230 gold. I did not revolt to Bureaucracy, if we want to do that, which is probably a worthwhile move.

Diplomacy: Lizzie is Cautious, Washington and Cyrus are Annoyed and Tokugawa is Furious. Huayna is cautious (+3) while Peter is Pleased (+8)

Oh, and did you notice we're now the score leaders :)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads12/RB21AD-0950.Civ4SavedGame
 
Very nice progress in the war.

Perhaps we should aviod taking Satsuma, so that we can get something good from Toku for peace. What is he offering right now?

I would still hire 2 scientists somewhere to try to generate at least 1 Academy. (Even if Kyoto will still produce a useless GP, we can make sure the next one is a scientist.) Our capital would be a good place for Academy even without Beurocracy. (Although we should probably switch to Beurocracy right away.)

For research, I agree with Paper->Printing Press. If we avoid selling Civil Service until we discover Paper, we might be able to sell Civil Service + Paper to somebody for a more expensive tech (Machinery?). Or we might be able to do it once Peter gets up to Pleased.
 
(0) 950AD Always good to be back in the saddle again with RB21. As usual, I go through and examine all our cities before doing anything else. Despite our plans to cottage Karakorum thoroughly, I note that there are zero new cottages since my last turn. Heh. Maybe I'll see if I can do something about that before my turn is over. I change a grassland forest to one of our 3-commerce lake tiles, but otherwise leave things alone. Beshbalik is on a replacement settler, looks good. Pasargadae is working some bizzare tiles, so I reconfigure stuff there. Market due next turn there should help out things a bit too. Persepolis isn't going to pop a Great Engineer, so I drop the Engineer specialist and work a plains hill instead for an additional 2 shields. Despite our discussion, no one has gotten rid of the cottages at Arbela, so we're left with this weird city that has virtually nil commerce, working three cottages. Heh. I don't think you'd see this outside a SG! :crazyeye: I will work on reconfiguring on my turn; going to irrigate over those cottages and run some specialists instead (Arbela has a forge but is not running an Engineer.) Arbela was at 12 base/27 modified production of units when my turn started. I'll see how much that can be improved before I finish. Remove Turfan's citizen (borders have already popped) to start growing its cottage. Osaka and Kyoto are going to need major worker improvement, so I'll get to them later this round.

We have seven workers right now. That's not bad... but we need more. I'll train some more out of Arbela during this turnset. Also, I know that regoarrarr was asking for an imminent attack on Cyrus, but I don't see that in the cards just yet. We have tons of territory now, but the cities are generally weak and underdeveloped. We need to do a little rebuilding first before charging off to acquire more territory. Strategically, the shape of our territory is a nightmare, and taking Cyrus will only make it worse. My goal will be to eliminate Tokugawa before my turns are done, not start another war. (Why eliminate Toku? It removes the "we long to join the motherland!" unhappiness in captured cities, and I hate leaving a job unfinished. That and we'll get another negative modifier for declaring war a second time if we stop and come back later.)

Diplomatically, we have good relations with Peter and warming with Huayna. Everyone else either is cool towards us or hates us. Techwise, we're behind Machinery/Feudalism/Compass on most everyone, and Liz is way out in front. We are up Civil Service on Peter/Huayna. I don't understand going for Paper right now, frankly; we can't bundle it along with Civil Service for Machinery, because Civil Service is a prerequisite for Paper! I would also REALLY like to pick up Compass, because we are Expansive (half cost harbors) and we have the Great Lighthouse (+2 trade routes)! I'll revolt to Bureaucracy on this turn (not sure why we didn't do this immediately!) and re-examine next turn.

(1) 965AD Between turns, Peter offers Compass for Civil Service. I'd like to get Compass, but not going to make a deal that stupid! (CS is twice the cost of Compass.) At Tokyo, I get to experience the joy of having no Medics allowed. 6 turns to heal, umm, yay. Not sure what the worker at Beshbalik is doing (that's one city we do NOT need to improve right now), so I send him back to Karakorum to start another cottage. Huayna picked up Civil Service on the interturn, so we can no longer trade with him. Nuts. I am going to research Drama (3 turns) and then hopefully send that to Peter with Civil Service for Machinery or Feudalism. It's a gamble, but one worth trying, I think.

I also extort all of Cyrus' 310 gold. :satan: More deficit researching for us! :D



(2) 980AD Start courthouses at Pasargadae and Persepolis, with the expectation that both with be whipped shortly. Arbela finishes an oliphant, starts a worker (5 turns). As I said at the outset, we need to run some more infrastructure on these turns. (Also want to at least have Machinery and some maces on hand before hitting Cyrus.) Whip courthouse at Kyoto (with that corn resource, might as well whip a lot there, for the time being.) Kyoto will be another commerce city, so I start replacing the AI's idiotic workshop-on-a-river with a cottage.

(3) 995AD Beshbalik settler -> Buddhist monastery. Let's use this city to spread our adopted faith into all our cities, for a nice big fat boost to relations with Peter and Huayna, shall we? The extra happiness effects won't hurt either. Down the road, here's our irrigation path at Beshbalik:



Irrigating over a cow is unorthodox, but it hardly hurts us at a resource none of our cities can never use! :) Just need to get more culture for a border expansion first.

Kyoto starts a library to go with its whipped courthose. Whip a courthouse at Pasargadae, set the city back to max food. Persepolis' high shield/low food situation makes it unwise to whip there, so the courthouse will be built naturally.

(4) 1010AD Discover Drama, start looking into Paper. We... still can't make a deal with Peter. In fact, even Compass now costs Civil Service AND Drama! In other words, Peter is about to discover Civil Service himself, so the tech is almost worthless. Sorry guys, it didn't work out. :( We'll have to try and find another deal down the road somewhere. On the plus side, it WILL be useful to have theatres and the culture slider for our civ.

Toku has a number of defenders at Satsuma, but no spears (yay!) And he never will, because I'll be pillaging his last iron source next turn.



(5) 1025AD Found the replacement city for Edo in an interesting location:



The most important thing to do was remain on the coast for Colossus/Great Lighthouse purposes. After that, I had to wedge the city in between Kyoto and Teoihuacan (Peter) as best as possible. This location claims horses, two grassland cottages, the oasis, the iron, and an unused floodplains tile. It's a squeeze, but a good one! First build is a theatre (which we will whip) for cultural purposes.
 
(6) 1040AD Washington shows up with a big stack near Tokyo. :eek: Let's hope he's just exploring and not about to attack. (We'd probably be ok, because it's mostly horse archers, and we have elephants galore. But I hope we don't have to test that!)

By the way, Liz detonated a cultural bomb in Nottingham last turn, stealing some of our tiles. :mad: We'll definitely need to pay her a visit eventually...

(7) 1055AD Arbela worker -> elephant. Washington moves away; he was just exploring (whew!) Tokyo comes out of resistance, has EIGHT unhappy faces at size 10 (yikes!) Clearly a case of unavoidable starvation, so I whip 4 of them into a library (yes, I queued it up ahead of time to take advantage of the whip discount). Since we still cannot feed all the people, I create 3 specialists; might as well get 6 free culture from Sistine.

Attack at Kagoshima this turn... It's a longbow on a hill, so we're going to take losses. I sacrifice a cat and an axe, which gets our elephant to 99.1% odds. That means it's goin' down: :hammer:



That's about the best I could do, given the terrain and our no promotions rule. Better a lost axe and cat than an elephant, was my thinking. By the way - one tile NORTH of the Kagoshima site will make a good city eventually. Decent amount of water tiles, and a whales resource too. Keep that in mind. Cut back science to 40% to avoid bankruptcy (actually... with this many cities, on Emperor, with our non-centrally located palace... still being in the black at 40% science - that's really good! :D)

(8) 1070AD Tokyo's whipped library finishes, and I set it to theatre next. It's really getting squeezed by English culture, so let's help it out a bit, shall we? It's down to size 5 from size 10, but out of starvation. Going to need some worker attention here soon though. Cats knock the defenses of Satsuma down to 5%, we'll go in next turn.

(9) 1085AD Beshbalik finishes its Buddhist monastery, I set it to start cranking us some missionaries. Some of the newer cities in the west could especially use the free culture from the missionaries, and it will improve relations with our friends. Good deal all around. (I'm also holding Beshbalik at size 7 to work the gold and horse tiles; it can't grow larger without giving them up. Your call on whether it's worth it to push growth at the cost of shields/commerce here. I leave that to the next leader!)

Battle of Satsuma
Suicide cat dies (2% odds) against sword
Suicide cat wins (at 22% odds!) against axe
Elephant kills axe (88%)
Elephant kills sword (95%)
Keshik kills archer (89%)
Keshik kills archer (89%)
We are victorious at the cost of only one unit! [dance]



Buh bye, Tokugawa. ;) We also nabbed two more workers, bringing us to an even 10 count. Excellent! (regoarrarr, if you're wondering when/how to attack those cities, use this as a model. We had one lucky roll, but otherwise everything went according to plan. I expected to lost 2 cats in this battle.)

(10) 1100AD Cyrus demands Civil Service. Wait, let me stop laughing long enough to say NO. Karakorum sees a forest chop add another cottage, and that's about it.
 
Paper is due in 2 turns. My Drama research looked like a waste, but Peter/Huayna still don't have the tech, so we can probably trade Paper + DRAMA for something nice, hehe. We really would like to get Compass and some cheap harbors going - they'll add a lot of income with our wonders. Zeviz, you are welcome to try and set up a Great Scientist somewhere by running two library scientists. Tokyo might be a really good location for that once its borders expand next turn. Something to think about anyway.

Let's get some more markets/courthouses/libraries up and going, trade for Machinery, and then crush Cyrus in about 20 turns. Do nothing but train military from Arbela, that's what it's there for! (Once the irrigation gets added there, we can run Engineer specialist + plains workshop for strong production.) That's all I have to say for now, things look good long-term so long as we don't get sneak-attacked soon.

Big Map (TM):



Kylearan <<< on deck
sooooo
regoarrarr
Sullla
Zeviz <<< UP NOW

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads12/RB21-AD-1100.Civ4SavedGame
 
Sullla said:
I'll revolt to Bureaucracy on this turn (not sure why we didn't do this immediately!) and re-examine next turn.

CS was discovered on my last turn. I suppose I could have revolted right then, but I figured waiting 1 turn wouldn't hurt, in case there was a big reason to stay in Barbarism :lol:

sullla said:
The most important thing to do was remain on the coast for Colossus/Great Lighthouse purposes. After that, I had to wedge the city in between Kyoto and Teoihuacan (Peter) as best as possible. This location claims horses, two grassland cottages, the oasis, the iron, and an unused floodplains tile.

Horses are outside the BFC, right?

Good turns (as usual)!
 
Hi,

Sullla said:
By the way, Liz detonated a cultural bomb in Nottingham last turn, stealing some of our tiles.
Two culture bombs at our borders in one game! :mad: Argh.

Buh bye, Tokugawa.
Well done! :goodjob: I'm still amazed about the lack of resistance from him. :confused: I don't think we will have such an easy time with the other AIs...

-Kylearan
 
Sullla said:
Down the road, here's our irrigation path at Beshbalik:



Irrigating over a cow is unorthodox, but it hardly hurts us at a resource none of our cities can never use! :) Just need to get more culture for a border expansion first.

Why not fetch the water from the tundra river? The cow resource may still be worth something in trades, even if you're unable to work the tile.
 
Good job eliminating Toku. :)

Although I am curious why you didn't try to extort a tech from him for a 10-turn peace. Was it for diplomatic reasons?

I'll try to play this evening. (Or tomorrow evening.) Is there anything I should particularly focus on, aside from general economic improvement and hiring at least 2 scientists?

I've never tried a specialist-heavy economy, but with Representation and Sistine Chapel, this might be the game to try it. If we want to do it in some cities, is there any advice on setting it up?
 
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