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RB26 - Rabid Dog

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession Games' started by Qwack, Oct 7, 2006.

  1. Qwack

    Qwack The Poopman

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2006
    Messages:
    836
    Settings:
    Leader - Kublai Khan
    Map - Tilted Axis Massive Continents (All other settings random)
    Size - Small
    Difficulty - Monarch or Emperor
    Opponents - 4

    Variant:
    - All victory conditions except domination are enabled, but we must win by conquest.
    - At one point or another in the game, all 4 AI civ's must be at friendly relations with us. This doesnt mean all 4 at the same time, just that each must be at friendly relations before we betray them like the rabid dog's we truly are.

    Roster:
    Qwack
    Kodii
    Swiss Pauli
    Blake
    Liquidated
    dsplaited

    Starting location:


    And settings:


    Any thoughts on initial moves? Im leaning towards animal husbandry + worker first. We may have horses in our radius and even if we dont, the worker can build roads while we research some other worker tech's.
     
  2. Kodii

    Kodii Ka ICE

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2006
    Messages:
    1,687
    Location:
    Vancouver, BC
    I'm good with a worker and AH.

    What should be our plan for this game? Perhaps we should get all our enemies to Friendly first, then wipe them all out. It might not be a good idea to focus on one AI at a time.

    Also, an easy way to get the enemy to Friendly, and quickly, is to have the religion card. Should we found our own religion, then spread it to the world? Or should we hope that one comes to us, then spread that religion?
     
  3. Blake

    Blake The AI Guy

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    342
    Location:
    Apolyton
    We need to be careful to avoid filling our cities with religions. To a certain extent we can take new religions through conquest, and pray for AI missionaries, but on the whole we need to avoid spreading a single unified religion through our empire.

    Here are our sources of relation:
    1) Demands. By far the easiest source of relationship is "inane demands" since they have no diplomatic negatives with others. Coughing up techs is a way to get fair-trade without suffering "You traded with our worst enemy". GIFT
    2) Civic Bonus. Probably actually one of the eaiest to manipulate since there's no downsides to getting the civic bonus other than not being able to run better civics (or the case where one civ likes Rep and another HRule) : CIVIC.
    3) Mutual Military Struggle. Once we are friendly with someone, we can declare war on them and invite everyone else to join in. We want to avoid killing them ourselves because we want them to live for ages for lots of MMS.
    4) Religion. This must be used with great care, because it usually means someone else wont like us... just as important is the religions the AI chooses to run - we may not want them friendly with each other because that would make it harder to get MMS. Note that some leaders like Mansa Musa are easily bribed into a religion even if they have one of their own. FAITH. The HEATHEN penalty being the counterpart.
    5) General trade. This can have the large downside of you traded With Our worst Enemy - The WOE penalty.


    I see there are two main approaches to take:
    1) Try to make "One big happy family" where everyone is friendly with everyone else, most likely through unified FAITH. At the end we kill them all off. If this fails we could end with much WOE and might be left in a position unable to get MMS.

    2) Remain relatively neutral. Avoid trading except to other neutral parties (who wont wrack up WOE), gain bonuses mainly through GIFT and CIVIC. Allow the others to get somewhat divided via HEATHEN. Once we get friendly with someone, we turn on them and start wracking up MMS. We can use FAITH at some points.


    Obviously this variant would be about a million times easier with Spiritual, as I see it we're going to suffer a lot of anarchy (like giving in to literally every demand to switch). Hard is okay though.

    How we play depends a lot on the others, it depends on favorite civics, how easily they get pissed, how easy they are to bribe to do various things and so on. At the moment, given our traits (poor religion prospects), I think the best way is staying very, very neutral for now - almost isolationist (so the AI's think "That guys strange! Lets try to befriend him!")

    I believe we are going to need a good tech lead to manipulate the situation. I believe the best way to achieve this will be by Philo slingshot via Drama route (alphabet for more manipulation fun) - we want at some point to use a Great Scientist to lightbulb Philo. Our mid term research strategy should be along the lines of:
    Alphabet, Drama, Philo
    Also grabbing Literature and Mathematics

    I think we should go with our first and only religion being Taoism, since we are not in a strong position to go for getting all the religions and manipulating things that way.
    Pacifism is obviously an ideal civic for us since we aren't allowed to war for quite a long time, it'll help us out a lot. We could later lightbulb up the Liberalism path a bit or just settle all the GP's for stronger economy.


    For the opening, AH+Worker does look good (settler first might be another good option). Also we always need to keep in mind close borders - whenever possible try to make sure there will be a 4 tile space between cities, and we must avoid over-building culture stuff in those cities.
     
  4. Swiss Pauli

    Swiss Pauli Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2006
    Messages:
    1,805
    First things first, I think AH and Worker is a sound opening.

    With respect to the overarching strategy, I'd be tempted to make a Oracle grab for CoL then Lightbulb Philo with our first Great Scientist. With only 4 AIs this the Oralce shouldn't be too troublesome to get and two fairly early religions will help our manipulations greatly.

    However, much depends on our neighbours, so I don't there's much to gain by debating the strategy too vigorously right now. Let's see how the land lies once Qwack gets started.
     
  5. Qwack

    Qwack The Poopman

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2006
    Messages:
    836
    Played 20, and to keep it simple.. very interesting start. :p

    First of all, we had 2 huts near our capital, but decided to let our borders pop those since borders give better results. Send scout out exploring and he reveals alot of jungle. Turn 3, both huts pop and both give us scouts..



    Would have preferred a tech or two, but I guess we will take it. :mischief: With our new scouts on the move, quickly meet the first 2 AI's, Monty and Napoleon :eek: :eek:



    Look at those borders in the minimap.. this is quite cramped. And we have to make friends out of 2 manaics right next to us? Im loving it! Animal Husbandry researched in 3560 reveals horses 3N of capital, which will be in our radius on the second border pop. Nice! roosevelt was also met and I got a hint of Saladin's borders. No contact though. Heres the surroundings:



    I thought this was going to be a nice little game, but with this start and these AI's, doenst look like its going to be a stroll in the park. Research-wise, I went Animal husbandry -> Agriculture -> Mining now. We need to get to Iron Working as soon as possible, everything around us in jungle.

    Im thinking we should probably cut off the south by founding a city on the choke in the north. Settler at size 2 is probably a good idea here.. to quickly grab that site. I wasn't expecting it to be this cramped, but this is probably the high water level at work.

    The thing im worried about is early war's between the AI's, which can cause trouble to our variant... Either saladin or monty will probably found a religion soon, lets hope that religion spreads quickly, which is possible with cities right next to eachother. Maybe add a little rule "If the AI's eliminate eachother it ain't our fault" :lol: .

    I totally agree with Blake about being 'neutral'. Theres about a 95% chance monty/napoleon/saladin will be worst enemies very quickly, so we should probably not trade with either of them until later in the game. The good thing is monty and napoleon are easy to get into a war, so we can rack up those MMS modifiers eventually. I dont want to get ahead here, but right now it looks like a decent plan is getting saladin to our friend first with theocracy, then get everyone into war with him for the mutual military modifiers. Also since the AI wont have much land to work with, and we have that rich jungle in the south, we can probably get a large tech lead and manipulate the situation nicely.

    save:
     
  6. Qwack

    Qwack The Poopman

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2006
    Messages:
    836
    Heres a preliminary Dotmap:


    Both will close off the south, the blue dot will pick up marble if we want oracle(but may lose it if monty founds a religion).

    Roster-Wise: We will do 20 turns each for the first set of turns, after which we'll settle on 10 turns each. Kodii is up now for 20...
     
  7. Kodii

    Kodii Ka ICE

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    1,687
    Location:
    Vancouver, BC
    Got it. I'll try to play some time tonight. I think I'm leaning towards the Blue Dot, especially since we're quite far from Iron Working. Lacking Iron Working leaves the Orange Dot virtually useless.
     
  8. Kodii

    Kodii Ka ICE

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2006
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    1,687
    Location:
    Vancouver, BC
    The warrior completes and I begin the settler. Mining completes and Buddhism is found in a distant land. Since none of the known AI convert, I assume it to be Saladin. In 3000 BC, borders pop again. Monty adopts Slavery, so he has BW. We connect horses and the same turn, Monty brings a settler and an archer towards Karakorum. Not. Good. The next turn, he founds Teohuacan on the Blue Dot. This is going to be a challenge.

    Hinduism is found in a distant land. Nobody converts, so it must be Saladin AGAIN. Napoleon is sending a settler towards Karakorum too! :eek: Orleans is founded to the east of Karakorum. Bronze Working comes in, and we don't have copper. We wanted to block off the AI to the south, but instead, we were blocked off to the north. I decide to found our next city to the south. I was tempted to found a city in the middle of jungle to block off the rest of our jungle, but that city would have been completely unproductive. We are in quite the pickle. What do you guys think? Here is what the situation looks like right now:



    Save

    Swiss Pauli is up with 20 turns.
     
  9. Swiss Pauli

    Swiss Pauli Chieftain

    Joined:
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    'King forums not behaving well and lost a whole bunch of typing. :mad:

    Looks like we're getting squeezed out a bit here! Short term, I'll probably switch to Fishing in order to get Beshabilik going. Then I'll to decide between Pottery and Ironworking. We're going to need some cottages for our Philo lightbulb. I've given up on the Oracle.

    For Philo, I'd go Writing => Alpha => Drama and hope to trade in Maths and Meditation, but I guess it'll be Blake or Liquidated who will be on deck at that time.

    City-wise, it doesn't look great. We could try to stop Monty stealing 'our' horses, but such a city would not be so wonderful. But it might be better (medium term) than a jungle city. Maybe that little island might be worth checking out?
     
  10. Swiss Pauli

    Swiss Pauli Chieftain

    Joined:
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    1,805
    I had a look at the save at lunchtime...the pigs/gems/rice city will be a doozy once we get Ironworking, and it'll probably be OK beforehand (pigs/cottage). Monty's city won't threaten our horses unless (until?) it gets religion, so no pressing need for a re-inforcing city up there. Boney's city is plain weak for a good while yet.

    View attachment 140050

    I've switched to Fishing and done some micro...

    View attachment 140051

    I've set the governors to max food/hammers/commerce and grabbed the grassland forest for Beshbalik. I switched Beshbalik to a Chariot as it already has a garrison. After Fishing I'll switch to Slavery and rush a workboat in Karakorum. Then it's on to Pottery for cottages and only then to finish Ironworking. We'll send the worker to clear some riverside forests (in prep for cottages) once he's road-linked our two cities.

    Whaddaya think?
     
  11. Kodii

    Kodii Ka ICE

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    Vancouver, BC
    It looks like a good plan. Lets just hope Nappy doesn't sneak another settler into our jungle.
     
  12. Swiss Pauli

    Swiss Pauli Chieftain

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    1,805
    Apologies first: I over-ran by a turn so I doubled back to the 1600BC autosave for the pics then resaved. I got a bit carried away.

    Everything goes to plan for the first few turns, and I actually chop out the workboat for Besh (rather than whip it), until a barb archer appears near Besh. I've moved my Chariot down here for fog-clearing duties, but I've had some rotten luck lately against the barbs...and it continues :cry: (68% in my favour), forcing me into this move:

    View attachment 140070

    Which pays off. Phew! Two turns later there's a terrible development in Teo:

    View attachment 140071

    I also note that the square of jungle in the SE has gone...is that the outline of a barb city? At this point I decide to pump out some chariots as we'll be losing the horses and it'll be a while yet before we learn Ironworking. The chariots and one warrior make their way to the barb city (Harrapan). Here's the state of play in 1600BC:

    View attachment 140072

    And here's our two cities. Both at happy caps but the whip anger will fade the turn they grow:

    View attachment 140073

    View attachment 140074

    One turn before Ironworking...will we get that oh so precious metal?
     
  13. Swiss Pauli

    Swiss Pauli Chieftain

    Joined:
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    1,805
    Over to Grater/Blake for 20 turns.

    Have fun!
     
  14. Swiss Pauli

    Swiss Pauli Chieftain

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    Reflecting on my turnset, I think we might be able to turn Monty's Judaism to our advantage: he'll surely be worst enemies with Saladin and if we sign OBs and 'catch' Judaism then we can spread Taoism (assuming we get it) to Boney's capital. Ideally, we join Monty in a (for us) phony war against Sal and then also against Boney, though we may have to bribe him to attack. Then, assuming this brings Monty to Friendly, we go Taoist and attack him...

    Reflecting on my research, I think I could have switched back to 100% science a bit earlier and maybe shaved a turn or two off Ironworking.
     
  15. Liquidated

    Liquidated Goofed Up on Cough Syrup!

    Joined:
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    Location:
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    grrr man what in tarnations, just saw this thread. Not sure how my subsciption to the rb thread poofed , anyway I'm making sure I get this thread subed lol.

    let me read the damage so far I'm assuming this is vanilla civ right? Only been playing warlords recently, so gonna miss trebs :cry:

    ok let me get this straight, we are on a normal (um sure) tilted axis and all 5 civs are crammed on the same continent???

    there must be another mass of land somewhere with no body but the barbs there right? We must not neglect our navy here then as we must find the other land before the other civs do.

    Cheers!
    -Liq
     
  16. sooooo

    sooooo Chieftain

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    Messages:
    1,982
    lurker's comment: Titled axis/massive continents/small is basically a pangaea with the poles switched around. I think it's also a pangaea on standard size too, but could be mistaken. When you go up to large you get more than one continent.
     
  17. dawn

    dawn Redophile

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Yale University
    Is this really the case? :confused: Never head that before.
     
  18. Swiss Pauli

    Swiss Pauli Chieftain

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    Welcome aboard!

    It's a small world (as you might note from the crowding we're getting already) and we've got to win by conquest, so we need to keep an eye that the AI doesn't escape our clutches by sailing off to new lands.
     
  19. Swiss Pauli

    Swiss Pauli Chieftain

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    Yes. The only diplomacy downside would be if you've never traded with the requester before and they're someones worst enemy.
     
  20. Blake

    Blake The AI Guy

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    342
    Location:
    Apolyton
    Turn 0:
    Start devising devious plan things.

    How dare we be aggressive with no barracks?!!!

    Turn 1:
    We have plenty of Iron


    A screenshot showing where it is would probably be useful, but check out this close in of an Iron Mine! I've never noticed before that you can actually see the cobblestones in the roads, they've always been squiggles on the map to me.

    Also I use imageshack for the images. Quite often I notice these banner ads for matchmaking services, invariably they feature an unaturally hot woman, and I mean invariably. Apparently this matchmaking service doesn't attempt to advertise to females so the population of it would be about 97% men, but if it was for gay guys they should use picture of unaturally hot men...
    My posts are usually so insightful!

    1400BC:
    Nappy wounded one of the archers so I decide to attack the barb city, with our 1 warrior and 4 chariots.
    We win and only lose the warrior.
    1 Chariot withdrew.

    1360BC:
    Stonehenge is built somewhere.
    I whip a granary into Beshbalik, this'll be followed by whipping a worker, bringing it down to size 1. Life is cruel. At least under my rule.

    1160BC:
    Monty sneaking a settler in but is DENIED by my hastily founded city. I think I would've founded on the plains hill - but there was no time, I had to whip the settler out.


    1120BC:
    Monts completes the Oracle. I wanted to build that.

    1080BC:
    Jewism spreads to us!

    And Roosey the Rooster has become Buddhist.

    Stuff happened...

    Mosty I cranked out some more workers and got to improving our new barb city.





    I've tagged two sites for possible cities. Napoleons city is gone - it'll probably flip to us when our borders expand, it'll have to be disbanded because it'll antagonize monty. As such "flipper" isn't quite as cramped as it looks.
    Since we have no expansion prospects, founding "Crapper" would also be okay.

    Mostly we want to get a few more workers (I think I trained 3 in my turnset) and start replacing that jungle with tracts of cottage.

    Research is set to Alphabet but that could be changed to Sailing.

    http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/84705/RB26-RabidDogBC-0875.Civ4SavedGame
     

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