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RBC13D - Middle Ages - Kievan Rus (Demigod)

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Succession Games' started by Charis, Mar 14, 2004.

  1. Charis

    Charis Realms Beyond

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    Middle Ages - C3C Scenario - Succession Game series
    RBC13D - Kievan Rus

    See the general thread for rules, but nothing special
    beyond the usual RB list of non-exploits. (Dastardly non-exploits
    are fine, as typical, with one worker per civ thru turn 50)

    We'll be doing this one on Demigod, with a goal that should make for a
    very fun and a delightfully brutal game - we'll be going explicity for a
    Conquest Victory. That means we will have to wipe out 17 nations! :eek:



    We're Commercial and Religious, led by Royal Majesty Murik. AI Aggression Normal.
    We know: Norse Tradition, Masonry, Alphabet, and Mysticism. :p

    Norse Tradition gives our Berzerks, 70 shields, 6.2.1, amphib assault. They rock!
    Seafaring gives Longboats, 3.2.6 and capacity 4, enough for... an army. They rock!
    Smithing gives a Blacksmith which is a 100 shield factory! They rock!
    Viking Sagas opens a wonder which is a combo of +2 Magellan and Heroic Epic. It rocks!
    Would we ever want another tree? We might actually - as we never get an 'aqueduct'
    Byzantine flavor leads to Aqueduct and Cataphract (4.3.2), and a Spy with see-invisible.
    West church gives Monastary(+50% sci), Knights (5.3.2), Crusader (4.3.1). Not so great.
    Arab flavor gives library, Ansar (5.2.3!), Assasin (5.1.1+stealth), Sipahi(6.3.3), aqueduct.
    The Arab tree seems our best second addition, if we want to pick one up. We can (must)
    self-research the first one in a flavor, and can trade for later ones. Much later in
    game, next age gives Swiss Mercs (3.5.1) and some other so-so bldgs and units.

    We're in the "Viking" age and need *two* required techs to get out into the next age,
    "The Crusades", where Arab learning, Western Church, and Map Making are available.
    Only 4 required techs there, then the high middle ages has many techs open to all.
    Note "Sheriff's Office" with Divine Right costs 240 shields but is a courthouse, a bank,
    temple and a half-factory all rolled into one! The courthouse equivalent, imporant
    for our civ, is the Town Hall, available with Code of Laws. The Magna Carta wonder, late
    in game, gives a Town Hall in every city. The Great Wonders almost all seem nice, but
    I don't know which if any we'll want to build. Given that we'll be assaulting every single
    capital in the game, I would tend to say "none - capture wonders."

    It's Mass Regicide, so each nation gets 3 King units, and if they die, so dies the
    whole nation. The best (only?) way for us to win without winning on VP or letting
    someone else win will be to take out those kings specifically, and not get into
    long drawn out wars all around.

    The year is 843 AD, our setup includes 4 zerks, 2 swords, 5 workers, 1 settler, no boats.

    Kiev (size 2): Vladimir, 2 zerks, 2 workers, rax, market. Needs a temple badly!
    Novgorod(1): Oleg the Wise, zerk, worker. *60% corruption!* Temple and market.
    Vitebsk(1): Mstislav. Zerk, worker, no bldgs. 33% corrupt.
    Yaroslavl(1): A worker. Nearby is a sword. No bldgs. 33% corrupt.
    One settler with a sword in a very good spot, halfway between Kiev and Novgorod.

    We are *not* on the coast and will want to get a decent coastal city before too long
    (but no huge rush, as a sneak attack by other Vikings would lose it :p )
    The Swedes are partly up on the coast past Novgorod. Such a city will be corrupt.
    Did I mention we're in Monarchy, where we will stay the whole game?

    Strategic thoughts
    - The Vikings 'start' the strongest but don't have as much to look forward to compared
    to other civs. Time is on the side of the Arabs, as the Sipahi is the uber unit of the
    game, plus Ansars and Assasins, and they have to defend, not crusade.
    - Once in the next age, research Arab learning and go down that path by trading.
    - Thus it would make sense to go clockwise perhaps? Turks first before they get any
    serious units, then Fatmids before they have a monster stack defending Jerusalem,
    continue around after Fatamids. Then with longbows and Zerks in place, wipe out our
    Viking brothers by same-turn amphib attacks by zerks/longboats, and finally our
    neighboring Europeans, when we've got our own Knights or Siphai, rolling East to West.
    - Our 'ideal' setup would be 3-6 armies, some Berzerks and some Cataphracts
    (EDIT - had Sipahi here, but only Turks can build), so that not only
    our losses will be minimal, but also our VP's. These armies can march up unhindered to
    opposing king-cities, and take them out quickly, then rinse-repeat on next civ.
    - We're NOT militaristic, so leaders won't be as easy as other recent SG games.
    - I've compiled a list of king's starting-cities, to be posted later.

    Discussion questions for our team:
    - Long term approach to conquest?
    - Any specific early focus?
    - When to take to the sea?
    - Dense-ish builds, as we'll never have more than size 12, most perhaps size 6.
    Also, since goal is conquest, not domination, don't waste effort holding cities.

    Roster: (room for a fifth, but only a committed strong player please)
    Charis
    Jabah
    Grimjack
    Akots

    Thanks, and good luck all!
    Charis
     
  2. akots

    akots Poet

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    I've already posted in the main thread that city names are weird sometimes. After looking at some maps of Russia 9th through 14th centurty, the following list would be more appropriate:

    Kiev - already built
    Novgorod - already built
    Vitebsk - already built
    Pskov
    Yaroslavl’ - already built, needs ' in the end
    Murom
    Rostov
    Pereyaslavl’- Zalessky
    Polotsk
    Suzdal'
    Vladimir
    Smolensk
    Ryazan'
    Turov
    Volyn’
    Ladoga
    Lyubech’
    Izborsk
    Moscow
    Tver’

    Position of the current settler would more or less fit with Smolensk if founded on the spot. IMHO, if the players can just rename the cities when they are built according to that list... Did not want to ask too much.

    Also, there is a king Oleg the Wise???? This is very weird mistake. Either Yaroslav the Wise or simply Oleg.

    MGL list is more or less fine but SGL list is weird with
    Nicolai Lobachevsky - lived in 19th century (?)
    Vladimir Zworykin - American (!) invented TV (?)
    Mikhail Lomonosov - lived in 18th century (?)

    However, unlike cities, this would be impossible to make right. Just in case we get one, please rename if possible to Nestor (historian), or Andrei Rublev (artist and inventor).


    Game plan. Looks fine. However, I think Sipahi can be built only by Turks. Not sure about Ansars but looks like they can be only built by Cordova, Fatimid, and Abbasids. We can get only cataphract which is a mediocre unit with reasonable defence value. Not sure about dromon. It has 4 transport capacity but so is the longship. Also, dromons are slow (movement 4) but have lethal sea bombard. Overall, Byzantine tree looks more tempting IMHO.

    Another problem is that getting out of Black Sea requires Constantinople to be captured and well as another city near it (Nicea, if I remeber correctly). Northern route is risky and Russia did not go through it till late 17th - early 18th century because of Sweden which is difficult to reach and hence get rid of. May be they will let us build a Baltic port city in time to change the history. Going in circles from Turks to Abbasids is an option also but this is a very long way. The map is huge indeed.

    Berserk armies would be great. May be 5 or 6 or 7 are needed overal. To make them more powerful, HRE would be great to capture and may be one of the targets after it is built?

    It might be also a good idea to have no or little RoP agreements even with remote civs. There is no reason why we might need them. They have to die anyhow. In case of RoP, they all would rush with their settlers to the east to build there. They would rush anyhow so it may be a good idea to settle everything there to grab the land and increase free unit support. However, it is not a very fertile area and corruption would be tremendous even with commercial trait.

    Early wars with Turks is certainly an option because they can get way too powerful later in the game. And in terms of money making opportunites, contacts and Map Making can provide for a huge income boost.
     
  3. Caesar_Augustus

    Caesar_Augustus in vino veritas

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    You guys might want to spend some more time in the editor checking out what units each Civ has access to. For example, the Kievan Rus can build Cataphracts and that's IT for 'knight' type units. They can't build Knights (exclusive to the Christian Civs), Ansar (Arab civs), Sipahi (Turks), etc . . . So it looks like you'll have to conquer the world with Cataphracts and Berserkers :eek:

    However, every civ can build: Spies, Assassins, Inquisitors, Crusaders, as well as all of the 'regular' units like swordsmen, medieval infantry, etc . . .
     
  4. Justus II

    Justus II General Staff

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    Just to confirm, I checked the editor, and both Ansar and Sipahi are treated as UUs, only the Fatamid/Cordova/Abassid can build the Ansar, and Turks the Sipahi. Same with the Knight and Western civs. Keivan CAN build the Cataphract, though, if they have the tech, and it is your only heavy cav option. It is enabled only for them and Byzantine. Dromon is Byz only. (Note that Cataphract does not trigger a GA, the Zerks do that for Kiev, and the Dromon for Byzantine). So I would certainly recommend the Byz tech tree.

    Also, don't underestimate the settler flood you will see into your homelands, the Magyar and Bulgar in particular run out of room quick and push east. (OTOH, they only have 2 kings each, and might make for a quick take-out, as well as an easier path to Constantinople).

    Edit: Cross-post with Caesar-Augustus. What he said!
     
  5. akots

    akots Poet

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    Historically, Bulgars were the first to be essentially eliminated (reduced to nonsese) by Russia and Constantinople. Magyar survived through the whole Middle Ages more or less intact and Poland+Lithuania was a major east European power to early 18th century war between Prussia and Russia when they were caught in between and were divided into 3 parts.

    Probably, Cataphract is a must to have as well as cats for the beginning before some armies. It is anyhow better than horseman. Turks seem to build mostly assasins when they have the tech and put them in large SODs sometimes spread over several squares. So, having Byzantine spies may be also a good thing for detection of Turkish units.

    Re: settler flood. Good! This means lots of slaves which is again historically correct.
     
  6. Grimjack

    Grimjack Bounty Hunter

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    We have four zerks and two swords at start. Would that be enough for a quick rush at a close neighbour. An early army would sure feel good :)

    Grimjack
     
  7. Charis

    Charis Realms Beyond

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    Indeed, sorry I missed this earlier, the specificity of several units to certain civs, not just according to tech. This is a good thing, for the 'flavor' of the game. I've adjusted the original post.

    Good point guys, which I forgot to make - fast and frequent new contacts will be HUGE, for ANY of the teams. Let's make that a priority as well as building up a nice productive core.

    Charis
     
  8. Doc Tsiolkovski

    Doc Tsiolkovski Deity

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    Location:
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    While we're at it (pointing out things easily missed), here are a few others - most of them apply to all games:
    • While you keep mentioning that Aquaducts are not available until pretty late (unless it's in your tree), equally impotant is the lack of Harbor before the 3rd era.
    • Tundra is impassable
    • Now cities allowed on Desert
    • Swordsman do not upgrade to MDI; they upgrade to the pretty good Crusaders instead, but those come with the last tech of the (otherwise not so helpful) Catholic tree.
    • Galleys carry 4 units as well, and Curraghs 1. Important for the Western Civs: Don't load a 4th unit in an Army (HRE allows that), if you ever want to board a ship again!
    • Forrest gives 2 Food, 2 Shields! Don't dare to chop them ;)
    • Especially important for this game, Sweden, Abbassids and Fatimids: Raging Barbs...and the come with Keshiks! Killing Barbs gives VP; I managed to make 900VPs during the first uprisings with Sweden...but that depicts how many you have to expect.
    • Strategy issue: Be sure to pick the proper Tech to research first (all Civs except for Byzantium need 40 turns anyway) - for the Rus, the question is: What do you need more: Longships or Cataphracts? Which Tech is easier to trade for later - a Tech researched by 3 other Civs, or a Tech which can only be researched by 2 more Civs, both of which you're planing to eliminate soon? ;)
     
  9. Jabah

    Jabah Chieftain

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    I still have to look (carefully) at the save/scenario before further comments but here are my very first reactions:

    I notice that king units have a 2 movements. Do we want to explore a little bit with them or is the 'barbarian' risk far too high for that. (at least before settlin gnew cities)

    Aqueduct : it seems that we have lots of river, so it might not be a top priority (if cities are all on them).

    If Zerks are our UU, does it means we will have a GA as soon as in a few turns :). We might want to build a few more cities before starting war because of that.

    Since Kiev (our capital) is the most south city, we might want to expand that way first..

    Jabah
     
  10. Grimjack

    Grimjack Bounty Hunter

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    I also think we should use our Kings for initial exploration. Not in range of another nations units though, just enough to contact ,
    Swedes, and Turks, who are our closest neighbours.

    King units are also quite good at being MPs, so better draw them back asap.

    Yup, we will have GA as soon as we want it. For a very long time the best defender will be spear....

    Grimjack
     
  11. Charis

    Charis Realms Beyond

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    Thanks all for checking in! First turn will be heavy on exploration, fog busting (using kings, as suggested, then brought home for MP duty), making contacts, and just getting our cities up and running.

    As seen in other Viking threads, the time of Viking domination is *NOW*, and we REALLY will want to press this hard before others get Knights and good units. With defenders of str 2 we will chew them up and spit them out :hammer:
    At least the ensuing early GA will not be despotic :p
    I hope to get started tonight, soon if not.

    Questions - some may get answered over next few turns when we have more info, but any thoughts on these questions now or later would be good...
    - Just *HOW* early a war, and which foe?
    - Turks early sounds good. Abassids right after them before they get too much into turtling, and with better units?
    - Cataphracts seems great for us eventually. You guys weren't suggesting catapults were you? When it's 6 on 2, that's a major waste of 20 shields imho for our game :p
    - How many more cities to try to settle before going to war?
    - In general, are we going to try to hold a bunch of cities and expand into a big empire as we conquest, or stay fairly small and rely on a fewer number of excellent cities pumping zerks and cataphracts along with our armies to go on a capital razing quest?
    - Grimjack asked: "We have four zerks and two swords at start. Would that be enough for a quick rush at a close neighbour?" imho that's enough to eradicate two tribes, but that's just me! Which close neighbor?
    - I too would expect to expand in the direction of our capital, but there are two reasons we would not - i) if we have a definite first foe in mind, expanding in that direction is excellent. ii) if we have a very definite second weakish foe in mind, and he wants to settle extensively south of Kiev, that would save us many settlers :p
    - How much are we going to be getting into using the seas, and into fighting our "Viking brothers?" They're so bloodthirsty I'm not too upset we have no coastal cities :lol: If they land and THEN try to attack us, then the 6 vs 2 goes OUR way and they'll be repelled.

    Thanks,
    Charis
     
  12. Grimjack

    Grimjack Bounty Hunter

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    I would say we use the ships later, after dealing with the immediate neighbours. Immediate neighbours would be Poles, Magyars ( Or is it Bulgars ? ) and Turks.

    Byzantium are probably the fastest to Cataphracts, and I doubt we could get at them before they get two techs.

    I say we keep the cities of the first few targets. They will not have had time to accumulate much culture, so flips should be a very small risk.

    I would say that a sweep for turks, followed by Magyars and then Poles would let us expand.

    On the other hand, we do have lots of lands if we want to expand. ( Yeah, right, peaceful expansion...... )

    Grimjack
     
  13. Charis

    Charis Realms Beyond

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    All right! Here we go! Thanks for your patience waiting for me to start, if you see the Swede thread you'll note I was busy getting acclimated to berzerk warfare!

    The Turks begin with just *3* cities, plus five settlers, 3 warriors and 6 horse, plus
    one extra spear per city. We have four zerks and 2 swords - can those ALONE do the task?
    It would be quite a march just to get to their lands. Having played the Swedes, I'm not
    too concerned about them right now, although later they could be a factor for us.

    The plan.... we blitz Turks NOW, before they get their cities going, before they hook
    up iron, before their three sitting ducks, er.. kings, move.

    [0] 843 AD - Settler seems to be in a good spot, river and multiple BG, so he
    settles where he stands. Pskov it is, and we then see cattle available after
    expansion, very nice. It starts warrior to have some defender, to be followed by worker.

    Kiev has thoughts about a temple, but the 1cpt from palace will get the much needed
    expansion. With rax and market, it longs to grow. Food is not great, so it starts a
    quick spearman, planning granary next. Novgorod starts a warrior for MP/light defense,
    as does Vitebsk and Yaroslavl.

    Starting research is easy, Byz Ingenuity. We need it for our special Cataphracts,
    and we must research the starting tech ourselves. Us and Byz get the Cataphracts.
    It's 40 turns no matter what, so we run min sci.

    Since forests are uber tiles and we have many, workers focus on a road network to
    connect all our cities.

    Our offensive units are ALL going E/SE to the Turks. The three kings start in their
    three starting cities of Patzinak, Khazar, and Ghuzz. They won't reach them by the
    end of my reign, but this is our starting course of action.

    We'll use Oleg the Wise to scout North and NW - he contacts Sweden.
    Mtsilev is going to bust fog to the west, and and Vladimir S/SW.

    [1] 846 and most other turns, nothing but moving.
    [2] 849 - We have no iron or horses hooked up, btw. We see iron not far from
    Kiev on a hill to SE, also wheat on river not far to SW. Another ring further
    south are more horses, and another wheat (though off river)
    [3] 852 - We meet some Magyar swords. If they like juicy unguarded cities, they're
    headed in the right direction!
    [5] 858 - Almost all cities finish a unit this turn, most start a worker, Kiev a granary.
    We meet the Bulgars in the SW.
    [7] 864 - Turkish borders are spotted... which city?
    Our King scout finds Piska, and from Byz game we know what that's near.
    [8] 867 - Next met is Poland. Then we make the acquaintance of lovely Theodora.
    We step up and see the closest city is Bursa... not the main target on our "hit list."
    In diplo we see he has capital+7 other cities.
    [9] 870 - NE of Bursa is Istanbul. Not a key target either.
    Game crashed hitting F3. Odd. I'm getting my common sound driver problems tonight too.
    We're 8 above allowed units, ouch. OK, settler soon I guess :p
    [10] 873 - Compared to other games my mil build-up is tame. Workers and MP done, a few
    cities that would benefit from expansion start a temple, others on river with a lot
    of good forest tiles start granaries. When the latter complete, settler time.
    We contact a German warrior.
    [11] 876 - moving
    [12] 879 - Burgundy is met. It's quite likely time, or PAST time to start pulling
    one or more kings back. Their boldness so far has been excessive. In fact, Vladimir
    has the least to gain by pressing on and is closest to Kiev. He starts to head back.
    I would look in the Turk SG thread to see what's up, but they're not far enough along
    yet! Nor would their city choices be the same anyway. Our zerk scouts must step up
    and annoy Osmon. BINGO! Pazinak! That's their western-most King city. Khazar is
    about 8 squares due SE of Pazi, and 5 squares almost due NE of Khazar is Ghuzz.
    IBT - Sheesh, calm down Osmon! Not even a second chance to move, "GET OUT!" he
    screams. We shall, but it will be the LAST TIME we step on your land without the
    war you see to crave! Actually, shoot, they just expanded borders this turn.
    [13] 882 - Oleg has ended up too close to Mtsilav, and so he too turns around.
    [14] 885 - movin
    [15] 888 - Mstilav finds a French swordsman, dressed in a quaint pink outfit.

    Sheesh, I was thinking I might see if I could go ahead to the time of attack,
    but the furthest zerk is still 14 turns from Patnizak. Next furthest is 11, then
    a sword 7 away, and the other sword and two zerks are within 5. So it's time to
    pass it on to Jabah.

    Options:
    - Send the front line ahead to Khazar, to attack there and with the upcoming troops,
    Patnizak, at the same time. Bad choice imho, as we have far too few forces to
    be splitting them.
    - Scout a small bit more if needed with front guys, but assemble ALL SIX units into
    a single SoD stack just outside Patniazk's borders, declare honorably, then...
    either move into that forest or... for all the cities the chance of seeing a horse is low,
    but you might draw out an archer out of the city and get to attack first. More likely,
    they will have zero archers and will only start making them when war is declared.
    Looking at the trade screen though, he has NO IRON and NO HORSES!
    Whatever he started with is the ONLY offense he has,
    besides archers if he built any! So fear not! 6 horses firm max, and just a few warriors,
    plus spears, spread out either scouting or defending 8 cities. If we move in force and
    don't get sidetracked, I predict we can knock out the three king cities successfully.
    - Be a total and abject wimp, forget this is a game of conquest and being "da man" of all
    of Europe, and turn tail and go home. Then quit Civ3 and go take up tiddlywinks! :hammer:
    Although, I must admit, if our luck is bad, it will NOT be good for us. It won't be
    a total loss, as all we have to risk is 6 starting units, who if not taking on this
    risk have nothing to do anyway but sit home and do needlecraft.

    Other comments
    - Finish up railnet, then start improving the land
    - Clearly we need settlers, as well as rax and spears. So much to do.
    - Bring back the two closest kings safely, and do what you will with Mstilav.
    - OUr first berzerk win will spawn a Golden Age.

    Our look at the terrain...



    RBC13D Rus 843AD

    Charis
    Jabah <-- UP
    Grimjack <-- on deck
    Akots

    Good luck!
    Charis
     
  14. Grimjack

    Grimjack Bounty Hunter

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    Boom Boom Boom Boom Boom Boom
    BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM

    'Do you hear ?'
    'What ?'
    'The drums are coming closer, what could it mean ?'
    'Nah, just some savages in the woods, nothing to fear. Enjoy the feasts of Istanbul instead.'.......

     
  15. Jabah

    Jabah Chieftain

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    Got it... and Murphy strikes again as I have also the Byz Sid game at the same time. :)

    Will definitly play at least 1 tonight, probably both.

    In the open fatimid game (rbc13k), I discover a few extra bonus for extra thoughts :
    - how cheap was seafaring (and probably all 'optional' tech) : 10gpt at monopoly, 4gpt at 3rd .... compared to HRB & Castle.
    - how quick and annoying barbarians (uprising) could be for 'exposed' civ...

    I'll check the game and I'll be back before playing.

    Jabah
     
  16. T-hawk

    T-hawk Transcend

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    Over in the Norway game, two civs have Seafaring and both want 30+ gpt for it, so don't necessarily count on cheap tech prices.

    In the editor, the costs are 12 for Horseback, 15 for Seafaring and Castle Building, 30 for Smithing, Viking Sagas, and Lost Roman Secrets; a whopping 50 (same cost as the branch entry techs) for Heavy Cavalry, and 40 each for the last two Byzantine techs.
     
  17. Jabah

    Jabah Chieftain

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    Is it possible that techs 'not in your own tree' could be cheaper (to buy)?
    Those last comments plus the fact that in FoR, 2nd area techs were much cheaper to buy when playing barbarians than (AFAIR) when playing the Perse...

    All those tech prices are confusing
     
  18. Justus II

    Justus II General Staff

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    Good point Jabah, I was thinking the same thing. I wonder if the "flavor" selection does something wierd to tech prices when you do get access to non-preferred techs?
     
  19. jack merchant

    jack merchant Internationalist

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    Location:
    The Netherlands
    I suspect it has to do with the tech being both optional and having no value to non-Viking civs - after all, for the Vikings Seafaring enables Longships, for the non-Vikings it doesn't do anything at all. *If* the Rus can build Longships (I'm not sure they can actually), expect Seafaring to be rather more pricey.
    (/relurk)
     
  20. Jabah

    Jabah Chieftain

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2001
    Messages:
    1,281
    Location:
    Paris, France
    Temporary swap ?

    I just finished to play the Byz game and won't be able to play this one before Satursday morning (european time). So Grimjack if you want to, you can have a go before me and I will play after you for this round.

    Thks and sorry for the delay.

    Jabah

    regarding strategy, I am not convinced about a so early war, at least we probably should reunit our forces into a SoD to avoid losing Zerks to 'lucky' conterstrikes by turkish horse/archer. Leaving our rich lands for other colonization and having a 5CC GA is not great either...
     

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