RBC13G - Middle Ages - Norwegian Nightmares (Demigod)

Got it. I like your plan T-Hawk.

Care to elaborate on the brokerage deal? I won't get a look at it until about 10pm pst and won't play until probably midnight at the earliest. So more suggestions/ideas are welcome.

Btw. Can someone off the top of their head remember if Blacksmiths require Iron within the city radius or just in the SR box? It slips my mind and I need to do a clean re-install of the game. It does affect the priority for city attacks.
 
Brokering is to buy one tech and re-sell it to another civ for another tech. Here's an example. (Assume we get Horseback Riding for peace with England.)

At some point, it will probably turn out that somebody like the Rus gets Castle Building tech but doesn't have Seafaring, or maybe the other way around. When you see that configuration, you buy Seafaring from somebody else (spend all our economy if need be) and trade it to the Rus for Castle Building. Effectively, you get two techs for the price of one. (Remember that only the Viking civs can get Seafaring, of course.)

Blacksmiths just require iron in the resource box, not in the city radius.
 
Seafaring allows building of longships, which we really don't need any more of, so that tech can wait quite some time. Wait as long as possible for a brokerage to appear - it will eventually be possible unless the Rus get both techs on the same turn, which is pretty unlikely. (Yes, this means check diplomacy with the Rus every turn for techs, once we get Horseback.)

If a brokerage does become impossible (the Rus get both techs), then we probably buy Seafaring then, and look for a brokerage between Smithing and Castle Building instead. Either that or buy Castle at normal price and look for a brokerage between Seafaring and a new tech in the next age.
 
Well, that's making progress! Once everyone and their galen uncle started to poach our lands it was inevitable we would have an early, small Golden Age. Agree that granaries are the best way to perpetuate the benefits.

We are still researching Byz. Ing. (due in 10), the screen is just displaying funny because the tech name is too long.

Don't forget about the 'zerk in Sheep Hill. A warrior is just as warm a body for MP, and much less painful in case of a flip. In the GA, we can see that Sheep Hill is ~80% corrupt, so may be salvagable when we can build courthouses. Until then, it sounds like a great location for a specialist, once it grows to the limit of its happiness. Can't do that now, as it would take away the 2nd uncorrupted shield.

I think we have 16 turns of GA remaining.

One nit to pick, I think Longships can sink in Sea squares, at least until we discover Seafaring. Would be a shame to send our gallant warriors to the bottom ...

I'll have to remember to include pictures with every dot-map suggestion. The English could follow a picture, but the Danes missed the proper spot by one square. :lol: Saves us a settler anyway.

Should we consider a settler from ??? maybe Sheep Hill (3 turns in GA) to settle us some furs. Could save us 10% on the lux tax once Borre and Trondheim hit size 6.
 
According to the editor (pull up the Units tab in the Edit Rules box and find the Longship), Longships have only the "Sinks in Ocean" property. They're safe in sea.

Borre can build a settler to claim some furs - it's a growth machine now with that granary. There is NO good location up there that isn't occupied by a mountain or tundra - the city will be stuck at size 2 for good.
 
Originally posted by T-hawk
According to the editor (pull up the Units tab in the Edit Rules box and find the Longship), Longships have only the "Sinks in Ocean" property. They're safe in sea.
Click to expand...

Would be nice if they bothered to include that in the Civilopedia for the game. The 'pedia say Galleys can sink in Sea tiles, and separately that Longships are Viking Galleys. Without looking at the editor, I suspect that the former statment is wrong, the latter is correct, and that Galleys also only sink in Ocean tiles. Oh well, not a lot of ocean tiles where we're going.

I suggested Sheep Hill for the settler because it will never build anything else useful, and I hate to reduce population of core cities during a GA. This ties to my suggestion to move the Berzerk out of Sheep Hill as well. How about Borre build a vet Spear, staying at a larger pop to better produce Berzerks, one of our Longships (we do have an extra right now) shuttles the spear to Sheep Hill and picks up the Berzerk and the Settler and returns them to our core. [Actually, Stavenger has 3 units in it already, and one of our boats can get there this turn. Maybe just send a reg. Warrior to Sheep Hill. The Longship should then arrive within 1-2 turns of the settler popping.]

Founding on the Hill 2 NW of the Swedish city (and 1 SE of a fur) gets us a fur. The city is limited to size 3 (1 forest, 2 hills) until we capture the Swedish city. Even with no worker attention except for roads, the size 3 city will still pull 6 shields before corruption. After capturing the Swedish city, our new city could work 4 forests (2 furs) and 2 hills, for a potential of 17 pre-corruption shields at size 6. The Swedish city would then work 4 forests (1 fur), and 2 Hills (1 Quarry) for 18 pre-corruption shields at size 6. If we could get the Swede city an aqueduct, there would still be 2 more forests and a BG available.

T-hawk is correct that any city trying to claim the nearest fur to Trondheim is limited to size 2.
 
Kabuki is probably already playing, so I'm not sure these comments will matter, but yes, good point that a settler is indeed the most useful thing we can get out of Sheep Hill. Our longship that explored the Mediterranean came back home and is right near Sheep now; it could take the berserk over to help hit England at the right time and could also take the settler soon.

If you think the Civilopedia is bad about the longships, try from the Byzantine side. Dromons sink in ocean OR sea but the civilopedia doesn't mention either. Read the civilopedia, but trust the editor. :)
 
Ok, I spent some time last night looking at it and figured out how to play the turns I have. Although I ran into one quandry, and after sleeping on it, and puzzeling over it for a bit longer I'm still stuck, so I'll toss it back out.

Here is the question:

What do we do after we hit Chippenham and England? The four turns it takes to get all our Bersherks outside Chippenham will be worth it. As all five will be there we have as I see it a couple of options:

1. Keep up the skeer and take at least one more city before extortion. And then...??

2. Peace right away w/ extortion.

3. Wipe them off the board.

The problem for me is what do I do after this? Our choice of strategy post England really impacts my choice here. Do we follow the Swedish idea and hit Paris? It's a reasonable option. Or do we think of taking on the Danes or Celts? We have to hit someone for space at the moment... I think the Swedes are too strong, but never say never on that account either.

My personal preference is to go for Paris for the Relic and then hit the Danes as they are the least spread out. Then go back to England and the Celts while we are building for an assault on Jerusalem... The problem of all our key cities being coastal was politely pointed out by Charis and his Swedish hordes and something we definately have to be aware of...

As soon as I hear back I'll finish up the turns, but I'm uncomfortable proceeding without a more general idea of where we are going.
 
My plan would be:

Take the relic, then see what they'll offer. I can't think of much we would want other than HBR and cash. Don't believe they will offer cities, and I'm not sure we want any of their cities either. Recall the trick of gifting Chippenham to someone else, I think we have to capture the city to claim the relic. Apparently if the city is gifted, our unit (w/Relic) either goes to our nearest city or back on the LB. Besides, it's about time for a Turkish presence in the British Isles. [Gift it to someone weird, for whom it would be horribly unproductive. Might be a great, sneaky way to make a world war break out when/if the Celts attack it!]

I was thinking of hitting Sweden next. How soon can we get to 8-9 'zerks? Their Kings start in Sigtuna (capital, coastal), Kopingsvik (coastal), and Skara (not coastal). If we have 8-9 'zerks, we can assuredly whack their capital on turn 1, and maybe hit Kopinsvik as well. (I would wager we can, they aren't going to have 9 defensive units between the cities already.) Take a couple of Swords on a boat, to garrison Sigtuna. Then sail around and land SW of Skara. We may lose a 'zerk or two, but the Swedes should have exactly 2 turns to attack us before they go *poof*. [It is two turns sailing from Kopinsvik to Skara.] The only cities of ours they can hit would be Borre and Oslo. If we have three units in each, we should survive unscathed. Besides, if they send their 'zerks away from Skara, we're less likely to lose units on the seige. Then we re-settle the furs site, and try to grab anything else we can.

We have plenty of cash to open a Swedish embassy to check feasibility of this plan.
 
I second T_McC's plan. Peace with England after whacking the capital and relic, then when we're ready, hit an amphibious blitz on Sweden's coastal cities. Catch all their berserks while they're sleeping in the cities rather than getting ourselves on the wrong end of the 6 vs 2 equation. :) Also, swordsmen in our cities can counterattack Swedish berserks if they try to attack our cities over land.

The AIs do stuff their capitals and kings with 5-6 defensive units; don't be surprised if we have to do only one city per turn.
 
The Viking Kabuki is holding court somewhere off the British coast:

-Enough of being the whippign boy of the North! It is time to show these wimps what real noresemen can do! The council has decided that the Swedes must die for infinging on our ancestral territory!"
*Out of the back one of the wolfskin clad bersherks, Fred to his friends and Death to his enemies, raised his hand.*
- Yes, Fred
- Why are we sitting in ships off the British coast if we are going to kill destroy the Swedes?
- Because they infringed first and we need to teach them a lesson so we will sail to Chippenham, kill their queen and steal their holy grail!
- I see, so why the Northumbrian coast, isn't Chippenham near Wales?
*To this Kabuki was unsure... not that he could show any uncertainty in front of this bunch. So he thinks for a bit.*
- As a diversion. Then again the council might have thought that the Northumbrian cities looked mighty tempting... and they do. But Chippenham is so much more interesting, I think you will find the royal residences quite to your liking after we redecorate.
*One of the Bear skinned bersherks raises his hand this time, his name is Thorbjorn Skakke to his friends, Death to his enemies.*
- You said they had a queen...

And so it began. The council had after all decided.

IHT 936AD
- Our ships set sail for Chippenham
- Shuffle the Warrior out of Orkney with the spare galley and start moving him to Sheep Hill and prep our Zerk in Sheep hill for the trip to Chippenham.

IBT - Some galleys and longships move around.

1 - 939 AD
Hastings Warrior -> Spear
Lux 10%
Set an entertainer in Sheep Hill (will stay for two turns until Warrior arrives)

IBT - Burgundy lands an archer in France.

2 - 942 AD
Longship vs English Galley - Win/-1

IBT - Sweden founds Uppsala in mountains north-east of Trondheim.

3 - 945 AD
Orkney: Spear -> Spear
Trondheim: Spear -> Bersherk (and influence expands to include the northern fur)
Borre: Spear -> Bersherk
Sheep Hill to settler

The Battle of Chippenham (Part #1)

Three Black ships sail into the bay where they disgorge a huge army of huge men clad only in bear- and wolf-skins. The defenders are brave and come out to meet them, after all how can 6000 Spear and 2000 Sword be defeated by a paltry 5000 rag-tag, untrained barbarians when they have the Queen and the Holy Grail to protect?
Well?
Mmm... I think the answer is with persistance and superior force...

Vet Zerk vs. V Spear - W
Reg Zerk vs. V. Spear - W/-1, Prom
Reg Zerk vs. V. Spear - W/-1,
Reg Zerk vs. V. Spear - W/-1, Barracks destroyed
Reg Zerk vs. V. Spear - W/-2, Prom

Another Veteran Spear is showing...

IBT - Swedish Longship heads into the North Sea

4 - 948 AD
Sheep Hill Settler -> Temple

The Battle of Chippenham (Pt. 2)
Vet Zerk vs. V. Spear - W

- Army with single sword showing :eek:

Vet Zerk (3/4) vs. 3/3 Army (w/1 sword) - W/-2, Prom

Reg Zerk (2/3) vs. R. Sword - W

- The Holy Grail is showing!

As the troops approach the castle the Queen comes out to face the troops. Thorbjorn Skakke laughs, wades through the maids and sycophants and throws her over his shoulder and heads for the boats.

Vet Zerk vs. Queen - W/Prom, Temple Destroyed.

The Grail is ours! Not that we really care much for the object... although I'm sure it would make a very nice cup for our next blot.

We now sit down with the English for a quick chat and decide that HBR and 58g sounds like a fair deal (all they had).

IBT - Swedes keep heading into the North Sea. The Danes decide we are too rich and demand 40g. I cave and pen their name into the book of grudges... After the Swedes, after the Swedes... And the Germans start HRE.

5 - 951AD
Stavanger: Barracks -> Temple
Oslo: Granary -> Barracks

Now for some wheeling and dealing:

Castle Building is acquired from the Fatimids for 7gpt and 349g
Seafaring from the Danes (after the Swedes) for 18gpt and 31g
That tied up all our gpt and leaves us with 31g.
I then send CB to Theodora for 148g, Poland for 29g and Cordova for 26g. I didn't sell for less than 20. I was thinking of holding out until we had Byz Ing but decided we needed the cash and it was very likely that she would buy it off someone else in the meanwhile.

I then realized that I couldn't whip Chippenham (damn!) and handed it over to the Fatimids... as we don't know the Turks. The Holy Grail is now in Trondheim.

IBT - England and Poland start HRE

6 - 954 AD

Nothing much, start moving our ships towards Skagerak (that is the area between Southern Norway and Northern Denmark).

IBT - Viborg (where Bergen normally would be sort of) produces a settler. Swedes found Visby on the Shetlands. Franks start HRE.

7 - 957 AD
Hastings: Spear -> Barracks

Lux to 20% as Borre grows. We are now loosing 10 gpt as compared to 4 previously... we can handle this.

IBT - Swedish Longship coms back to Skagerak from North Sea.

8 - 960AD

Just moving ships and settlers.

IBT - Danish culture now puts pressure on Hastings. Franks start HRE.

9 - 963
Oslo: Barracks -> Besherk

Ok, it looks like I miscounted my turns. Which took me by surprise. However it is a good point for me to leave it. Our ships are near Borre, 2 Zerks are due in 1 and there is good time to veto any builds. I do have a bunch of screenies to go with the write-up but the server doesn't seem to be working at the moment so I'll post the screens once the server is up (probably tonight when I get back home).

As for the save - Ville do you have a mail address I can send it to?

I'll check back here several times over the next couple of hours - or mail me - I'll send you a pm. When the server comes up I'll post the save for the rest of you.

Oh, and did I mention that the Danes should be next after the Swedes... Family... just like everyone else they tend to overstay their welcome...
 
Good work, and nice writeup about the Viking council. :viking: :lol: . You didn't miscount - I did and went one turn over on my turn, you just made up for that. :)

I guess brokering between Seafaring and Castle Building didn't work out. Castle was an OK purchase based on us reselling it, but we don't need Seafaring immediately and could've waited to find a better deal on it. Eventually the Rus would've gotten it, and they're far enough behind that we could've found another tech to trade them for it. Seafaring is cheap enough that it won't much matter in the long run, but we don't want to be paying full price without some decent deals on techs like Smithing and Lost Roman Secrets.

Another 3-4 berserks and I think we'll be ready to jump on Sweden pretty soon. :hammer:
 
Based on cash inventories at the time I don't think we would have had CB to trade for much longer w.r.t. to Danes/Swedes. So I'm not sure if waiting was an option, but I may be missing something. And the Kievans were... mmm... well really behind and didn't seem to be making any money either so it was odd. They may actually have gone for Byz Ing I suppose...

Now we have the option of going for smithing on our own... which is likely as there might not be Swedes around by the time someone discovers it... in which case I think paying monopoly to the Danes for it is out of the question although extortion is always possible.

Now that I think about it... does genreal pricing consider eliminated civs? If they don't count then it would be hard to see how we could get a better price as by the time Kiev has Seafaring Sweden should be gone. Especially if they are going up the Byzantine tree...
 
If a civ like the Kievans are behind and not making any money, that means they're researching and will come up with a tech soon. True that they might've gone for Byz Ing, as they do have the Byzantine flavor. Let's hope so now, since that will give us an extra trading partner for the Byzantine techs.

General pricing ignores eliminated civs. If there are 17 civs in a game, and 2 have been eliminated, and 5 have, say, Castle Building, then you pay for Castle Building based on being the 6th civ out of 15. Distinctions like that are miniscule, though, and not worth worrying about. Pulling a brokerage effectively nets a FREE tech which is far bigger than any of those small factors.

By "waiting for a good deal", I don't mean looking for a cheaper price because the difference will be very small. I mean looking for a way to make the tech purchase go farther by reselling it, almost always for another tech. Take a look at my report of Epic 25 from Realms Beyond Civ for the ultimate economic effect of always doing that.

We don't have the economy to research Smithing ourselves, whether Sweden gets it or not. We'll be waiting on the Rus to get it, or to get another tech like Code of Laws or Lost Roman Secrets that we can involve in a brokerage.
 
Excellent Work! :goodjob:

I think we have 7 turns of GA remaining, enough to get a couple of more 'zerks? I do think a set of 9 would be very nice to whack Sweden.

Did we build a settler in Sheep Hill? Sounds like Sweden poached the spot I wanted (or something like that), but it wouldn't be a bad idea to stockpile settlers for when we finish the Swedes.

Ville should spend the money to establish an embassy with Sweden, and get free peek at their capital garrison. If they have 5 units, I would figure 7 'zerks minimum to take it out. Wouldn't hurt to investigate Kopingsvik. Here the math gets weird: If Sigtuna + Kopingsvik <= 7 units, we should wait until we have 9 'zerks, and we have a chance to hit both cities on 1 turn. If Sigtuna + Kopingsvik > 7 units, then we have to go one at a time, and I would figure Sigtuna + 2 'zerks is the number needed to start. My point is the one-at-a-time plan can start sooner.

For the one-at-a-time, we may want to get to 7 'zerks, then build vet Swords for "offensive defense", as we'll be giving the Swedes an extra turn to attack. Hard to say without the save. Don't know how the shields are playing out, and what we can build in our remaining GA.

One further tip: If we are running a lux tax, raise the lux tax on the turn the GA will end. This can help prevent rioting (and a lost production cycle) on the turn the GA ends. I believe our GA ends on Ville's 7th turn, so bump up the lux tax before ending that turn. Worst thing that can happen is we are "over-happy" for a turn, and lose a couple of bucks.
 
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