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RBC14A - Age of Discovery - Portugal, Sid

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Succession Games' started by T-hawk, May 18, 2004.

  1. Speaker

    Speaker Deity

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    That really sucks. A lone wandering Pikeman and a nonsensical sneak attack. What could the Aztecs possibly have offered Spain for an alliance? I agree we should play on. I guess we'll have to sue for peace as soon as possible and start bringing back treasure.
     
  2. Jabah

    Jabah Emperor

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    Continental Portugal was defended by 1 musquet, 4pikes, 1 MI and a trebuchet at the beginning. 2pikes were rushed (1 never arrived). Not sure what would have been enough to hold.

    Cont'ed
    1553Ad (3) we still have several undefended colonies are most are weakly defended. Ceuta the new capital is just defended by 2 pikes (1vet, 1reg) and is building a barrack.

    Arghh our boats are slower by 3. avoiding privateer might be a nightmare

    Have to raise lux to 40% (-55gpt), we gonna go bankrupt very soon, Aztecs and Spain are still not talking

    IT Spain sign Netherlands against... France.
    We lose Azores (and Wines)
    Ceuta finished barrakcs and I use the scroll ahead to prevent 3 riots (due to Azores/Wines lost)
    Missed Luanda (still shoving 2 contents ????? is this bug known)

    1554AD (4)
    Sell feudalism for 28g (Maya) & 14g (Inca)
    PEACE with Aztecs for Chivalry (get their 16g and 8gpt)
    Spain still not talking

    1555AD (5)
    Since we gonna break our reputation ASAP (with peace with Spain) and we realy need to give Spain weaker target:
    Alliance with Inca vs Spain for Chivalry (get 6g)
    Alliance with Iroquois vs Spain for MI (get 12g)
    Alliance with Aztecs vs spain for Education (get 11g)
    Alliance with Maya vs spain for Chivalry (get 4g)

    IT 1 worker is disband because of bankrupcy

    1556AD (6)
    Spain still not talking

    IT Spain sign Netherlands against ... us :-(
    Lose a worker, temple in Rio

    1557AD (7)
    sign all the american civ against Dutch.

    IT York build shakespeare

    1558AD (8)
    Spain accept to speak, of course they want a city and not a crap one. give them Ilheus ('useless' unprotected middle Africa with Iron next to France)
    Everyone is furious at us of course...

    We should be carefull not to have England with Dutch against us

    IT even the american civ dare to blackmail us, give Education to Inca.


    1559AD (9) return our first treasure !!!
    Carefull, there is invisible (spanish) unit around in South America
    sign a lux for lux deal with England to be on the safe side.

    IT Netherlands capture Luanda :-( killing an elite pike.
    They must be a MI and a pike now. We will have trouble keeping Rio Grande and getting our treasure out of S America
    Spain and Netherlands MA against England.


    1560AD (10)
    Save before playing


    Jabah
     
  3. Jabah

    Jabah Emperor

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    Just a quick comment.

    - Several units are carrying treasure (in the middle of Africa), a carrack is waiting for them so don't send them back to MP/combat/whatever.
    - There was no privateer around, I guess Europe at war means the AI prefere normal Man-o-War at this time, so maybe we can avoid building a huge fleet?
    - Netherlands is still not talking. Maybe we should attack them somewhere ?
    remember that they are at war with everyone but Spain (same for Spain)

    Jabah
     
  4. Arathorn

    Arathorn Catan player

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    Lovely. I got it and will hopefully play tonight after LotR13. Looks like a very unfun world. The loss of our two European cities is a big loss -- at least one great wonder and one small wonder. Sigh. Will see if/what can be done. Goal without seeing the save is PEACE and treasures.

    Arathorn
     
  5. T-hawk

    T-hawk Transcend

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    Sounds good to me, Arathorn.

    Yes, the AI will build Man-o-Wars almost exclusively over privateers. The AI always prioritizies the highest attack value when building units for offense, and the highest defense value for defense.

    If Ceuta is still our capital, I'd consider that as still having our capital in an original location. Technically, it isn't Europe, but it was a starting city of ours, and treasures must still go some distance to get there, so strategically it really isn't significantly different than having Lisbon.

    The ultimate solution to this would be to be able to recapture Lisbon via amphibious attacks on the same turn that we then make peace. Does that look like any sort of possibility?
     
  6. Jabah

    Jabah Emperor

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    Not a chance, we now are at peace with Spain (holding lisbon). The evil AI is Netherlands now :).

    Attacks might be a good idea, but we now have just 1 offensive unit (MI) also carrying a treasure (on its way to Ceuta) and around 2 barracks.

    Jabah
     
  7. Arathorn

    Arathorn Catan player

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    I cowered in a corner, hiding our cities behind carracks and generally kissing up to people and praying the Netherlands wouldn't attack us. They did, and it was a single longbow landing. I could barely handle it, needing to attack with a longbow uphill against the darn thing. We were so frickin' short on units.

    We had some cash, though, so I rushed pikes, pikes, pikes, and a couple of pikes on the side. Many/most are treasure-carriers, although a few served as MPs and as general minor deterrents against the AI. No city is currently empty, although a good stiff breeze could almost wipe us off the map.

    Took me for-frickin-ever to figure out how to tell what units were carrying treasures without having to right-click 'em every single time. If the experience level of the unit has !!! after it (e.g. Regular!!!), then it's carrying a treasure and should head for the capital. I cost us a slew of turns getting treasures back that way, but, on the plus side, it helped defend Africa for us a bit.

    By 1565, the Dutch were willing to talk. I entered negotiations with a not insignificant amount of fear. What was it going to cost us? Anything but a treasure city I was pretty willing to give up. I was almost expecting them to ask for a recently-founded city on iron that I was going to give up. I was a bit off. The cost was negative 38 gold and negative 9 gpt...that is, they actually paid US for peace! Strange are the ways of the AI.

    I repaid their kindness by safely stealing Piracy from them in 1567. I figured the Dutch were the least threatening and a safe steal was reasonably safe. It worked. No twofer but I knew there wouldn't be. I don't think privateers are quite as safe or valuable as frigates, but the option is at least available, should we choose to try that route.

    I also switched Rio de Janeiro to Navigation School immediately upon getting the game. The explorers every 10 turns are worthless, but this small wonder also gives us +2 naval movement points...extremely valuable for getting treasures home. It completed in 1568 with only minor starvation (just food, no people) and our navy is the stronger for it.

    I retire in 1570, with the leading VP team being...Portugal, with 11520. Spain is second with 11315. 5 turns ago we were at 3310 and Spain was at 10675, so we're moving right along. I leave the next leader with 11 treasures on boats trying to return to Cuerta. They're a few turns away, but I think you can pull it off. Be sure to check which boats have valuable passengers and which are returning treasure-carriers to the mines.

    Also, a bunch of cities are MM'd for food/commerce as they will complete builds this turn. Be sure to MM them back to shields after they complete what they're working on. Check each city that completes something fairly carefully.

    I was also using some workers from the farm to build up S.S. de Congo. It's a pretty serious commerce producer and we might even want to rush the bank there. More people are good.

    No real advice other than that.

    Oh, and the very first interturn the Dutch and the Spanish felt they weren't at war with enough people and declared on each other! Some peace has broken out here and there, but those two nations are still definitely under the gun from most everybody else.

    Arathorn
     
  8. Speaker

    Speaker Deity

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    Great recovery Arathorn. Looks like we are in decent shape, all things considered.
     
  9. T-hawk

    T-hawk Transcend

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    Yes, nice recovery indeed. Back in the VP lead! :goodjob: And good call on rebuilding Navigation School.

    I'm up. Got it and peeked at the save, can play tomorrow.

    We've still got our two gold and two gems mines in Africa, plus still have one city in South America with a gold mine. Our treasure accumulation survived unscathed. If we win with the original city of Ceuta still as our capital, I'll consider that just as much a legit win as if we'd kept Lisbon.

    Some tech brokering is available, with England lacking Counter Reformation and the Netherlands lacking several techs. And we can afford a safe steal right now.

    But do we even want tech? There isn't a whole lot that's tempting on the tech tree. Man-o-Wars would be nice, but everything else - com-docks, hospitals, mills, stock exchanges - seem too expensive to really pay off in the short timeframe of this scenario. Missionaries seem useless, and the various wonders are certainly unattainable with a cascade in full swing right now. And I think we want to avoid Professional Armies, to continue to build 1-3-1 / 30 pikemen instead of 2-3-1 / 40 Swiss Pikemen.

    Do we get tech, or should we just pour all our cash into military for treasure security and defense?
     
  10. barbslinger

    barbslinger Gun blast'n shot drinker

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    In the netherlands diety game the missionaries were very helpful in the ground transportation of treasure. I have a feeling your treasures are produced in port cities so you probably don't need the faster movement. Concur on the recovery and look forward to seeing your treasure accumulation continue.
     
  11. Jabah

    Jabah Emperor

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    Navigation School, I was wondering if we should build it or a bank in our colonial Palace, since both were 10t I start one to let the next leader decide (but forget to tell about this choice, my bad).

    If missionaries can see invisible units (missionaries) they are far from useless. I can't tell you how stressfull was being attacked by invisible units (especially fast ones) when you know that some of your cities were without (decent) defences.

    And if (hopefully) no war is planned, it could just allow us to see them instead of running into it and going back to war due to the sub bug.
    --> in SAmerica, since (if) we have to direct access to the coast, it might be a good idea to have a worker 'opening the way' to a 'treasure' pike to avoid this kind of problem.

    Jabah
     
  12. Arathorn

    Arathorn Catan player

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    Missionaries do see invisible and so I see them as valuable. Worth a steal and twofer try? Not sure, so I deferred the decision. Now that treasure-carriers are returning, too, we probably have enough for right now, but we still are tragically thin on units.

    In South America, I moved 3 treasure-carrying pikes into French territory to try to get access to a boat on the following turn. The French helpfully kicked us out north and a bit east of where I was intending to pick up the carriers, saving us probably a full turn on the trip to Cueta. Something to keep in mind. We have more treasures than units there at this point, but our other spots are, finally, waiting on treasures instead of units to carry them.

    To avoid the 'sub bug' as a human, do NOT use goto. If you move manually, you'll get a pop-up and a chance to avoid the war (I *think*), but if you use the goto command, you'll just run into them and declare war with no options. Missionaries to see invis would be better, of course.

    We might need/want privateers, which is why I stole Piracy. Beyond that...I just don't know. Man-o-wars might be helpful, but I have this feeling if we get stuck in war again, we might well just lose. We barely have marketplaces and almost no banks, so I don't see how stock exchanges would help. Mills, maybe, I guess, since we could cash-rush them, but it seems more economical to just cash-rush what we need instead....

    Do galleons (which I believe comes with the same tech as man-o-wars) have better movement than carracks? Or better stats? That tech might be worth it just to have better transport ships. We're (almost) back up to two frigates, helping defend the long jump past the canary islands, but a small fleet of man-o-wars might be even better. That's the one I would look at most closely. Plus, don't techs give a few VPs even in this scenario? If we could two/threefer, it might well be worth it, just for the VPs. Each treasure we return is worth 200 gold, too, remember.

    Arathorn
     
  13. grahamiam

    grahamiam In debt to Mr. Geisel

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    [/delurk]
    in RBC14C, Missionaries were useful in repelling English troops landing in France. They have an attack rating of 3 and a movement rating of 2, meaning they can retreat. They can also produce workers upon a victory. Not the best unit but definitely not useless and, if you make colleges (if you make it there :) ), are produced automatically.
    Galleons have 1mp more than carracks and can hold 4, but have the same defense. imho, you'll get more milage out of 2 privateers than 1 Man-O-War (about the same shield cost). You can attack without starting a war and you get new privateers often (well, it seemed often at Emporer).
    Looks like a nailbiter. Good luck :)[relurk]
     
  14. romeothemonk

    romeothemonk Order of the Engineer

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    The reason England Can't get counter reformation is that they are PROTESTANT flavor. Also since you went protestant, you can't build Jesuit Colleges. Without checking the Pedia, I am not sure that protestant monarchies can build missionaries. It would be very important to check before stealing into. Since you are a protestant Monarchy, you might have the option to pay around 12 gold for the tech. Nice recovery on this game, but you might not want any more tech and just build temples, markets and pikes, and just sort of slide to the finish line.
    Good luck.
     
  15. T-hawk

    T-hawk Transcend

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    We can build Missionaries. Unit availability is never restricted by flavor or government. It's restricted by civ, but Portugal is selected in the list of Available To civs for the Missionary unit. Also, the tech chooser screen in-game shows the unit; it doesn't show units unavailable to the civ you're playing.

    I hadn't realized they detect invisible; in that case it probably is worthwhile to get them. They're also decent, cheap regular attackers, and they will serve as better treasure carriers than Pikemen, at least for the city in South America.

    You do get a pop-up when moving a unit that bumps into something invisible - no auto-declaration of war. I'm fairly sure you get the pop-up if you bump into an invisible unit even during a goto order. The auto-declaration bug only happens for AIs, not the player.

    Good point that Counter Reformation is Catholic flavor and can't be traded to England or Netherlands. That means there isn't any brokering available right now, until Netherlands gets some tech to trade us - and will never be any brokerage involving Counter Reformation since Spain, the only other Catholic civ, already has it. Are missionaries worth acquiring the tech at full price without a brokerage?

    We don't get Counter Reformation cheap. Our civ is Catholic flavor (even though we changed governments), so the Catholic flavor tech is full price.

    Galleons are 2-3-6 / 60, 5 transport capacity, as compared to carracks, which are 2-3-5 / 50, 4 capacity. A minor upgrade.
     
  16. RowAndLive

    RowAndLive RAMMING SPEED!

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    lurker's comment:
    I find it facinating that Spain has so many VP when they had almost no colonies prior to the attack on you guys. It just seems un-Spanish.

    I'm also curious if the war was caused not only by opportunity, but also by your switch to a Protestant government.
     
  17. T-hawk

    T-hawk Transcend

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    Inherited turn:

    Things look good. I decide not to do tech brokering yet. We can't re-trade Counter Reformation to anyone, so the only brokering available is with the Netherlands. The back-end of the brokerage would be Free Artistry or Professional Armies, both of which we definitely have no interest in.

    We can sell Iron + Ivory to the Netherlands for a decent chunk of change (36/turn), so I do it.

    ==========

    Hit enter, and Spain makes peace with England. So does Netherlands. Not exactly what we want to be happening. But then France declares war on Spain. (Invisible unit bug with Missionaries, perhaps?)

    1572 AD: Cash in two boatfuls of six treasures total. Thanks to Arathorn for that great setup. :goodjob:

    I get a couple muskets built in Ceuta; let's try and make sure to keep this city all the way to the win.

    1573 AD: England declares war on France, and signs the Inca to alliance.

    1574 AD: Cash in five more treasures, the last of the batch that Arathorn left me. VP now 22,520. Aztecs renew our peace treaty, then make peace with Netherlands.

    1575 AD: Sign Inca to RoP so that we can easily load four treasure-carrying pikemen onto a boat at Rio Grande do Sul (which is our one city in South America.)

    1576 AD: The Dutch got Ship Building, which we do want. A safe steal from Spain (they're the cheapest) gets us Mercantilism and we broker that plus 900g for Ship Building.

    1577 AD: Upgrade some carracks and frigates, cash in four more treasures that came from our Africa gold mines. VP now 27,120. I wish we could build some Knights to carry treasures around faster, but we don't have horses.

    1578 AD: Two more treasures cashed in, from our southern gems mines. Only six more to go, and I've actually got six on boats within four turns of home. I think I'll just go on ahead and finish this up...

    Cash rush a galleon in Cape Verde; transferring treasures from the Rio Grande to this new boat will get us the win a turn sooner.

    Three more AI-AI alliances start up between turns, two against Aztecs, one against England -- but it's not gonna matter.

    London completes Smith's Trading Company.

    1579 AD: Move some more boats around...

    1580 AD: Cash in the last six treasures, four from Rio Grande, two from African gold mines, bringing VP to 35120.
     

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  18. T-hawk

    T-hawk Transcend

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    "Picture pages, picture pages, time to get your picture pages..."
     

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  19. Speaker

    Speaker Deity

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    Uh, what happened here? Why did this scenario end up being so easy? We won with over twice the VP of our closest competitor and 4x those of two European countries. I know we have a good team, but.... :confused: Great job cleaning up the mess Jabah, Arathorn, and T-Hawk.
     
  20. Jabah

    Jabah Emperor

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    Good game to everyone.

    Having AIs spending most of their time at war definitly make the game easy (at least when we were not on the receiving end), the AIs are not good at doing both war and treasure carrying.

    Jabah

    BTW T-hawk, how close to 'cultural' victory were the American AIs ?
     

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