RBC15I - Napoleonic Europe - Sweden (DG)

Jan 1806: Russia and Prussia are in a MPP. But Russia is fighing the Ottomans in the South. If we give them something to worry about on other fronts, they won't be able to concentrate on us. We have some powerful AI's on this continent. Let's use their armies to do the dirty work...

Declare on Prussia and immediately unleash our SOD on Hamburg. Now for some tricky diplomacy:
First sell Medicine to Naples for 1GPT, 14G and their WM. Sell WM to everyone for some change. Buy France for an alliance vs. Prussia for 29GPT + 5G. ROP with France, so they can reach our enemies more quickly. Pay Austria 21 GPT + 8G for the same alliance. ROP with Austria (who is now Gracious). We know Russia is going to declare, but let's hurt their rep with the other AI's (assuming tey have one... tey do, rght??). We sign an ROP with them for 8G. It will cost them an additional one hundred times that to buy anyone else to fight us. Lux has to go to 20% and our we are at 264G - 45GPT. Will have to slow the bleeding soon.

IT: Catch Engliand trying to plant a spy in our capital. Russia declares. Much bloodshed ensues. Austria and France are both fighting Prussia and Russia, and the Ottomans are still nipping at the Russians in the South.

Mar 1806: Our cavalries win, retreat, and finally take Hamburg. We didn't fire a lot of artillery so they could move on, and they do. We redline Prussian inf caught in transit with arty and a cav finishes him off. TT's with 3 cavs and an inf head East to reinforce the Russian front. It will be very eciting over there very soon!

IT: Spain declares on Austria. Shame. We need the yodlers to go North, not West! Spain shows up at our doorstep with 11 cavs!

May 1806: They want money for peace. Kill one, see if peace gets any cheaper. It does not. Spain is not part of the plan. Sign peace for worker + 59G. We take Hamburg and score a Leader in the process! About time! We load our new army with the glorious Z's Cavalry and join 2 vet cavs. Saving elites. SOD heads South and camps out on a hill.

Side note: workers have a big price tag in this scenario! We can easily sell some from our maxed-out cities to cover our outgoing bribes! What the heck, if it can save us handfuls of troops?

IT: Defending infantry camping out on a hill next to Hanover guarding a stack of arty kills 3 Prussian cavs and promotes to elite! His infantry buddies pat him on the bck and promise him some R&R with the German ladies next turn. Russian frigate and transport head North. I wonder what they have on board. Pretty sure it's not Russian girls coming to say hello.

Jul 1806: Valiant Swedish fleet (all 1 frigate!) sinks Russian frigate, dropping to 1 red tick in the process.

IT: Cossack impales himself on inf fortified on a hill, and a cav that was pillaging the SE access road to Novgorod retreates after being attacked by a Russian infantry. Novgorod is pounded and pillaged by entire Eastern corps who know they don't have a lot of time before Russia mounts an offensive. They fortify on a hill NW of Novgorod hoping that the Russians will come to them instead of heading to St. Petersburg or threatening the homeland.

Sep 1806: Bombard 2 Russian guard units from Talinn (the transport pobably dropped off these nasty 6/6 buggers last turn) and finish one off with a cav. The other is left alone for fear of exposing the skirmisher to a certain death.

IT: French take Frankfurt. Novgorod guard unit storms our pillaging hill and kills one of our infs. First casualty of the Eastern campaign. Not bad, considering the odds. Just hoping that our tactics are sound and that the gambit works. The idea is that as long as Novgorod is threatened by forces fortified on a hill next to the city, the Russians will limit their options to charging the invaders. Austria offers MPP. Nah, we might want to stop fighting Russia some time. We signed everyone on against Prussia, but we are not obliged to keep fighting Russia if an opportunity for peace should present itself, for example when their MPP with Prussia runs out. If the rest of Europe chooses to keep fighting, that's their business.

Nov 1806: Take Hanoved after hevily bombarding the Prussians inside. All their cavs and reinforcements from other cities seem to be elsewhere. I wonder why. Sign alliance with Naples versus Prussia for Code Civil. Maybe they'll drag the British into it as well? Sign on Denmark as well. They pay us 12GPT + 6G for the honor! We sell them Iron for 2GPT + 10G an they turn Gracious! Sweet.

Now if we can hold off the Russians, we can take Berlin and as much of the rest of Prussia as we care to. They are ripe for the picking. The Russians shouldn't be too much trouble, either, as long as they're busy with the Austrians, the French, and the Ottomans.

The treasury is low and heading down, but we can always hire taxmen and starve some of our new German and Russian citizens. They're trouble, anyway. There are some prebuilds in the East where we don't have resources to build any real troops. If the harbor doesn't come through for us, we might have to build something silly like a court or a ship. The FP is close to done, I didn't touch it although I don't understand what it will do for us. Someone probably knows these things better than I do. I just know sneaky, back-stabbing tactics!
 

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Bravely played. We are starting to get some sort of economy going.

As to FP, I usually place them in some 50% corrupt city with a lot of shield potential. That way we would get at least one more good city.

Feel free to change it around, but remember, we need it fast if we want to benefit from it before the scenario ends.

Doc, you are up.

Grimjack
 
grs said:
Great turns!
OCN is increased by the fp too.


OCN calculations were never my forte. So this should help all our cities, but especially those to the South, such as our new lands in Denmark and Germany? I do understand about building it where it can be built as opposed to where it would be nice if it could be finished before the scenario ends... I have a feeling we're going to start losing infantry in Russia pretty soon, since those guard units can only be barraged into retreating one at a time. Once they start coming in twos and threes our three cannon won't be able to damage them enough to force them back into their barracks.
 
Here is a simple way to look at the value of the FP. It is effectively a courthouse in every city. The value can be show in games like the Austria AWE game I ran. Just before the FP was build we were heading toward bankruptcy. After the FP we got a positive cash flow.

In addition it does help the distance calculation some.
 
While I congratulated at first, Danz, now that I have played my set (I'm not at home atm, will post the log later), I am pretty upset about the situation I faced.
We are small, we are poor, we have no real production. So, what we need are short and efficient wars until we can afford going for the Big Guys. What we absolutely don't need is France conquering some neighbors.
We were by no means forced to start a war without sufficient planing. Getting Hamburg was always out of question (a human with 8 pieces of Artillery will never fail), the big question was the timing.
Now, instead of a limited war with Prussia for one or two cities and a Tech discount, I find us at war with Russia, and locked into war against Prussia for 20 turns, and the worst thing - France eats Prussia alive.
We, on the other hand, are hardly able to secure Hamburg and Hanover (btw, Hanover? WTH do we want with Hanover? Stettin, Danzig, Königsberg would have made good productive core cities, but Hanover?), and by no means able to take cities before the French SoDs - unless a extremely friendly RNG let them run out of movement with a single 2 HP Fusillier left in Berlin :)

Please ask yourself what we can gain from a war, before starting one.

Against Prussia:
We got: 3 cities, one of them a VP location, Horses and 2 Luxes (but we were already importing one of the luxes and Horses).2 MGLs.
We lost: Dunno, I lost nothing - but I didn't manage to attack anything but a Vet and two Conscript Fusiliers. Tons of money in any case. Maybe the game, if France actually captures the rest of Prussia.
We could have lost: If the Prussians would have used there last Cuirs against us and not the French, they simply would have been able to retake anything; sure, with an Army we could have captured that city again, but not hold any other one. The race to Berlin.
We wanted: Hamburg, maybe Stettin. In a second war, all of Prussia.

France got: Frankfurt- razed, Leipzig -razed, Posen. No way they will not be able to capture their remaining 3 cities easily, unless they for some reason make peace. That's about 4000VPs + 2 VP locations; add the 600gp we donate them.

Against Russia:
We lost: Couple of units. Population in Petersburg, which is about our only city without a Granary, stopped growth in Helsingfors.
We could have lost: As if you have to ask...while we were able to make peace at any time, 3 Cossacks would have been enough to blitz St. Pete and subsequently Helsingfors. Only the AI obsession for Guards saved us.
We gained: Absolutely nothing.

I don't think that's a matter of playing skill (your diplo was well-conducted, and the war of attrition against Novgorod a brilliant move), but a lack of strategic thinking, and a complete lack of discussion with the team.

End of Rant. :mad:
Please don't take this as a personal insult, and I neither want to replay your turns nor to drop out. But please stick to the SG rules of conduct.
 
Hmm. You may be right about the war. We didn't have to go to war against Prussia, and we didn't have to pay everyone else to join in. Also, I agree that Hamburg is not that important production-wise.

Here's what I saw right before I pulled the trigger. I saw everyone ahead in productivity and technology. So the first thing that came to mind was that facing any of our neighbors alone would be a losing war. I also saw France, Austria, Prussia, and Russia at peace with each other. All the great continental powers at peace. Bad. Russia fighting the Ottomans, but most of her border free from danger. Prussia secured in the East, able to sign a pact with Austria at any time and turn on us. France about to finish off Naples (they're down to a 1CC in Sicily) and probably looking for a next victim. Everyone researching and building up many times faster than we can.

Where does all this lead? Hard to know for sure, but there is a big chance that it will lead to someone declaring war on us. Others will be bought to join sides. Where does that leave us? On our heels.

So, the war was a risk, and could provide an opportunity for France to collect more VP's, but we seized the initiative and can turn on them. Hamburg was under pressure from France and looked weak, so it was an easy victory. We can camp out next to Berlin and take it when it looks weak enough. We can pick up other targets of opportunity in Prussia, sneaking behind advancing French forces. We made sure that France does not see *us* as her next snack. We also made sure that Austria is on our side. And we can hope that both of them make Russia suffer for her MPP with Prussia.

I think our only hope was to weaken every one of our neighbors, and such a war was pretty much the only way to do so. Even though it's a risk, doing nothing risks losing the initiative forever. The odds could only have goten longer as time went on, we got more backward, and our neighbors got stronger. So, I had to pull the trigger. It was either that or watch us stagnate.
 
Ah, here's the misconception: We want the Big Guys to sit around idle!

Declaring on Prussia without an MAs would have worked; just lend enough gp or a tech for gpt from France and especially England. And if one of them would have declared, there's always Denmark and KoN. Heck, we were at war with Russia during their GA, and they didn't manage to buy someone in!
Signing in Austria alone would have been a smart move; they wouldn't havegained much, and since we have the better defender, Prussia would have attcked mainly their forces. Signing in France with enough troops at hand to grab cities before they couldmay have worked as well. But when I had 2 Cavs and an Army, plus 8 Cannons, they had 9 IGuards and about 10 ICavs next to Berlin - and they attack with 8 against a def of 4, not 5:4 - but only because they razed Leipzig, and some Spaniard and Austrians stood in their way, make that 20+ ICavs otherwise.
 
Since I have looked at neither save, I cannot really comment. Both of you make excellent points.

Done is done however, and we will have to play with the hand that is dealt us. With Frances apparent power in numbers, are there any way to keep them from just grabbing everything in site once they run out of Prussians ?

Grimjack
 
Grimjack said:
Since I have looked at neither save, I cannot really comment. Both of you make excellent points.

Done is done however, and we will have to play with the hand that is dealt us. With Frances apparent power in numbers, are there any way to keep them from just grabbing everything in site once they run out of Prussians ?

Grimjack


Once our alliance with France expires, we can turn on them and sign in everyone else. Britain is locked in, Spain and Austria can be bought, and the only wild card is Russia. France can probably get them to fight us much more easily then we can get them to fight France. I'm not sure what to do about them except maintain the current alliance to beat them up a little bit more before we turn West. But as Doc was saying, we can't spend so much time worrying about our neighbors that we forget about France, who is in position to run away with the game if we let them.

What really sucks is that we have no way to build units that can come close to matching the big powers. So science doesn't help us much. The more time passes, the more difficult it's going to get :(
 
In a VP scenario like this, it doesn't really matter how big the runaway civ gets. The AI will never reach the domination level. What I am worried about is France fighting everyone - that way they'll rack up VPs by killing gazillions of units. A dogpile against France is exactly what will loose us the game.
Our way to victory is a good build-up now that we have something like an empire, get our cities developed (including 5 Hospitals for the BMed), and slowly but steadily take out France (maybe parts of Russia too) with close to zero casualties.

You may not simply use regular game tactics in the Conquests. We need more VPS than France, and it doesn't matter if we end with one city and Napoleon with 40.
 
Hmm, I forgot that kills also rack up VP's. That could be a problem. I still don't see how we can take on France without the help of her neighbors. They have the ability to build units that are of much better quality. We would need a stack twice the size of the stack guarding a city in order to take it, even with artillery support. Are you hoping to win this by setting up kill zones in our territory and outscoring France's VP locations by getting more unit kills? A war of attrition, in other words? I'm not sure this is a possibility. France was a conquering superpower during Napoleon's time precisely because they had a more effective military. They are going to fight all of their neighbors and they are either going to humiliate or completely crush every single one of them except England, who was out of reach because of the Royal Navy. It wasn't until the powers of Europe got scared enough to cooperate with each other, despite their back-stabbing history, that an alliance consisting or England, Russia, Prussia, and Austria ganged up on and decimated the French army after they were weakened by a bloody Spanish campaign. Allowing France to concentrate on one front will most likey result in a repeat of the early portion of Napoleon's reign: the conquered paying for peace in territory and gold. Our puny musket infantry and cavs are no match. And even if we could achieve a stalemate of some sort, Napoleon would simply turn on Spain and his Italian armies would continue pushing East against Austria. By allowing him to grow in size while we stay put, we would only be slowing ourselves down, not him. We have no control over the kill ratios of other AI's.
 
‘Tschuldigung grs, apologies all. Simply had no way to transfer anything from/to my machine (many people tend to complain about the German Telekom, but there are even worse telecommunication companies… )

Sweden, Nov., 1806AD (Btw Danz, you only played 5 turns)

Danz, this game is a gambit, and grs, Grimjack and myself made a lot of risky moves – but the risk was always calculated. We never were in danger of loosing anything, only not to gain much. I agree with most of your diplomatic/economical moves, and the situation in Russia is somewhat under control, though we may need to fall back to St. Petersburg.
But 3 things are by far too hazardous for a SG:
· We are extremely overstretched in Prussia. We have a total of 3 defensive units in Denmark and Prussia total, and we’d need MPs as well, to get more than 3 citizens to work. That kind of military situation would be acceptable when we had been sneak-attacked, or if there were a couple of units close to be completed – but I got the first new unit in July…
· The really worse thing is that there was absolutely no need for that; a couple turns for Infra (Banks!) and slow-movers while waiting for the FP to finish (note we cannot mobilize as long as the FP is under construction) would have helped a lot more.
· Signing in France may cause them to win; France must stay as passive as possible when you play one of the weaker Civs, otherwise they will run away in VPs.

Those kind of extreme gambit may be fine for solo games, but not in SGs.

This sounds harsh, but I think I listed the problems in detail. I somewhat could handle the immediate situation, but I’m not sure if we now can prevent France from winning. They already have one more VP location (Frankfurt’s rubble), and I see them getting Königsberg as well.

Inherited: Switch to a couple more Temples, we’ll remobilize soon.
IBT:
MI East of St. Pete defeats Guard and Jager.
Russia and Britain sign embargo against us, and MA against Austria.
MilAc notification.

Turn 1: Jan., 1807AD
Kill and bombard a few Russians. Healing turn otherwise.
IBT:
France razes Leipzig.
MIs next to Novgorod defeat 2 Guards.

Turn 2: Mar., 1807AD
Kill a few Russians. Approach Berlin, so do the French; hopefully they only kill some of the defenders, and not take the city. One more Victory location for them…

Turn 3: May, 1807AD
Kill more Russians. Don’t attack Berlin, wait for the Grand Army.
IBT:
As expected, France kills a lot of Fusiliers in Berlin, but not enough. Loose a MI near St. Pete, may be forced to retreat next turn.
On the good news, the FP finishes.

Turn 4: Jul., 1807AD
:wallbash: NOW finally the Prussians draft 2 units in Berlin…but on the really good news, we spawn a MGL and capture Berlin and much needed 32gp.
(Just listened to a Leonard Cohen feature, and can’t get ‘First, We take Manhattan, then we take Berlin” out of my head :lol: ).
Bombard all Russians near St. Petersburg, and I think we can hold our position for one more turn.
We finally have a slightly positive cash-flow.
IBT:
Austria makes peace with Prussia. I’m not too unhappy, since we get some cash back. Our brave defenders in Russia kill 2 Guards and a Jager for the cost of a reg Musketman. Should be able to hold another turn…

Turn 5: Sep., 1807AD
Since we don’t have any spare units for an Army for the foreseeable future, I use the leader to rush the MilAc in Köbnhaven (which just finished a Temple). Better one strong Army. Yellowline or kill a few Russians.
Wonder if France will capture Posen IBT; there are at least 8 defenders, maybe we can sneak in again?
Need to rush the Temple in St. Pete (8sp only), would starve otherwise IBT, since the Russians will move to one game tile.
IBT:
Not unexpected, France takes Posen. On the good news, our last 3/5 MI at Novgorod defends against 2 Guards and looses a single HP.
Temples in Veje and St. Pete finish.

Turn 6: Nov., 1807AD
Since all peaceful builds are finished, I mobilize for one turn (note we can make peace with Russia at any time, they’d even throw in their cash).
The plan is: We have little chance to grab any Prussian city before the French SoD. But, for reasons only known to the AI, France seems to ignore Amsterdam (maybe because there are some Guards). So, I move most units in Germany in position to attack Amsterdam soon; however, we need two turns of peace with Russia before, and must trigger their MPP again by attacking Prussia.
IBT:
Since finally the Fortification next to Novgorod finishes, and ZoC works (!), we survive there without casualties, and nothing but redlined units.
Couple of British troops land near Stettin, maybe this will delay the French.

Turn 7: Jan., 1808AD
Ok, usually in SGs you don’t do the Diplo in your last turn, but since I know about troop locations, I will make peace here.
First, kill a stray Guard in Germany, and a Jager near St. Pete. Make peace with Russia for nothing (except swapping WMs for intelligence), to stay honorable, since we’ll force them to redeclare via their MPP in the next turns.
Move all units out of enemy territory.
Draft a MI in St. Petersburg. Switch a couple of builds to peaceful ones. We simply need some Temples, and even a Courthouse in our FP city.
And I connect the Spices next to Berlin, which helps a lot with happiness.

NOTES:
· Almost impossible that Stettin won’t fall IBT. Since we have a RoP with France, we should be able to somehow attack a Prussian unit to trigger the MPP in one or 2 turns. Maybe better to simply move a Ship in, we cannot afford to suicide a Cav, and Russia has no fast.movers, so they can’t do much in their turn – don’t even know if they will get a move, or are forced to declare at the end of their turn. Then, throw everything against Amsterdam; there should be mostly Jagers. I killed a couple of Guards they moved out, and it has no Harbor, and since we also have no Harbor in Denmark (an oversight, but a nice help now; nevertheless, we should build one there ASAP :lol: ), I think it is still unconnected. France concentrates on Prussia, so I think we’re better off going for the former Netherlands, mostly because it’s another VP location.
· I built a fortress next to Novgorod, so we may have to fight to get that spot again, however it will help immensely with the siege. I don’t want to fight too long with the Russian Bear, but maybe we can get a Tech or Talinn/Novgorod from the war (we can send newly build troops to Russia IMHO, since we won’t gain much in Germany anyway).
· Please, please! get up something like an economy and sufficient troop reserve now. We need a couple of Banks (Vejie, Kristianstad), Granaries (St. Pete), Aquaducts for Helsingfors and Oslo, and Temples. I see no need for another immediate war after Amsterdam; we are forced to fight (eliminate?) France sooner or later anyway.
· I did not make economical deals so far; we could buy Sanitation, or Ari Tactics when we throw in our Spices (we don’t need them desperately). But I see no need for either of them right now. Btw, we should in fact build Hospitals and the BMed IMHO. However, we can sell AT to Denmark for a Slave/WM/their 72gp; see no reason why to not make the deal.
There is a (somewhat spare atm) Worker in Stockholm, but we can only get 20gp for him.
· What about running 2 Workers + escort down to the 2 Luxes between Austria and Ottomans while we have a RoP with France? We have a couple of Slaves in Germany, and most of the terrain is already improved anyway.

Over to grs.

Germany

The save
 
It is a hard game, and I will probably agree that the next target needs to be France, as they have a large lead.
Main problem would be to get France before they get too many VPs. Two or three 20+ stacks of artillery will be needed. To fund that, banks and large cities are called for.
 
Sorry guys, I didn't even consider keeping France out of the fighting. I see how unit kills rack up points now, and that this scenario is very different from other games, where the objective is always to keep the superpower at war with the rest of the world. I've never played this scenario in any other way but as France versus Europe, either when playing as France or when playing as any other nation. I can see now that keeping France out of it would have made it much easier :(

Still, the game is quite salvageable. If we can take something from the French that they want badly enough (like Paris, although that's a long shot...) they will throw their entire military against it. A couple of armies and a stack of cannon would cause a lot of French blood to be spilled, and a lot of Swedish VP's to be gained.
 
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