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RBC2 - Mesopotamia Phoenicians

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Succession Games' started by Charis, Nov 10, 2003.

  1. Charis

    Charis Realms Beyond

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    Realms Beyond Conquest 2 SG - Phoenicians of Mesopotamia

    With this begins a run at the set of Conquests in the
    Civilization 3 Conquests Expansion pack. Many of the scenarios
    have a variety of civs, and there are other difficulties to try
    so it probably won't be the only pass at the conquests, but
    in order to give them a try, let's dive in (besides, several of
    them are quite significantly shorter than normal games)

    Game details for RBC2 (C3Conquests):
    - Difficulty: Demigod
    - Civ: Phonecians (Seafaring, Commercial), led by King Hiram.
    - UU: Tyrian Guard, a Spearman replacement which is a lovely *3.3.1*
    - Map: No choice, about medium size. 'Normal' aggression.
    - Foes: Six other special civs in the area of Mesopotamia
    - Victory conditions for player: wonder win (Victory points)

    Roster: (Edit, was: Charis, Speaker, others TBA)
    Charis
    Speaker
    Hotrod
    Arathorn
    ToddMarshall aka Maniac

    All players will take 10 turns (was planning 20 for first, but with an
    unexpected three settlers there was a LOT going on early). Here's the spot:



    [0] 4000 BC - So it begins...

    The start is interesting in that we have *three* settlers, about 14 units and no
    unit support yet. Founding fast will be important. We already know sailing and have
    some Curragh on hand to explore the seas. The game is 'short term', ie 160 turns or
    less with a goal of building wonders. So forget size 20, we need solid, low corruption
    high shield size 12 cities and good tech researching/trading. Being seafaring, we'll
    want mostly coastal starst. The lowest settler looks to be in a great spot where he
    stands, so I'll want to settle there. The next one up has two wheats and lots of hills,
    and is coastal. It's ideal, and with the shorter timespan it's proximity to the
    first city won't matter too much. In fact, since it's more central and since the south
    has more desert, we'll found there FIRST and make it the capital. The third settler
    can either board the boat and head for what may be an island to the NW, or it can
    settle down near the capital. One step NW will make it on a river. No one can beat
    us to the island, so let's settle on the river/dyes.

    Tyre and Sidon it is, how appropriate. Although, I have the order historically
    reversed. I wonder if a nice 'Damascus' spot will appear to the east. The
    warriors disperse to the four winds to explore. We have a good chance of being
    centrally located trading moguls, given our seafaring, so let's explore aggressively.

    Irrigation requires a tech?? Wow, let's start with that one. Both cities start
    on a warrior, and Tyre with the higher food will do a granary soon.

    [1] 3960 BC - Ugarit is founded on the coastal river next to fish and within
    expansion of dyes.

    (IBT) Barbarians already seen lurking in the shadows

    [2] 3920 BC - First hut near Ugarit... angry fighter. (Oops, expect more on this diff)

    [3] 3880 BC - Movin'

    [4] 3840 BC - Exploring shows incense to East, and red borders. Second hut is fighters.

    [5] 3800 BC - Yellow borders seen off to west.

    [6] 3760 BC - Three more angry fighters from a hut, ouch.

    [7] 3720 BC - On same round, three contacts simultaneously! Our curragh meets the
    Mycenaens (Greece), warrior to east meets Babylon, and to west, Egypt!
    Mycenae has two workers for sale, though I can't take advantage of eating
    both. They have Warrior Code and Stone Working. Babs have Ceremonial and Stone,
    and Egypt has Ceremonial. To Babs I trade Pottery for Stone and 10g. To Egypt
    I trade Pottery for CB+10g. To Mycenae goes Pottery+CB+7g+2gpt for Warrior Code
    and one worker. Thus I keep the monopoly on Woodworking. Burial Mound (Temple)
    and archer are the new build options.

    [8] 3680 BC - One warrior seals off the land bridge to Egypt, while the others
    continue to explore, bracing themselves for more angry barbs. For a nice
    change, we get 'Mining' (yes, you need a tech for workers to 'Mine' here!)
    We're now dominant in techs and contacts. Speaking of contacts, the other civs
    are supposed to be Sumeria (Tigris/Euphrates area), Medes (Persia) and Hittites
    (near Egypt? Syria?) Sidon switches to barracks.

    [9] 3640 BC - Ugarit finishes warrior, starts Burial mound to pull in the dyes.

    [10] 3600 BC - Another barb killed, more exploring. Near home a worker moves on
    to the wheat near Sidon intending to mine, and one moves onto a hill outside
    Tyre to help finish the road (and perhaps mine). Soon we'll need to start a
    long irrigation chain from the tiny fresh water lake (Galilee) down to Tyre.
    It might take some chopping along the way.

    Win conditions - it's a Wonder victory, and here are the seven wonders in the game:
    * Colossus - Bronze Working
    * Great Lighthouse - Navigation (and Stone)
    * Hanging Gardens - City Planning (and Stone)
    * Mausoleum of Mausollos - Mathematics (and Stone)
    * Pyramids - Epic Work Projects (after Code of Laws, also needs Stone)
    * Statue of Zeus - Astronomy (and Ivory)
    * Temple of Artemis - Polytheism (and Stone)
    Note in this game all these are *ancient* era except Math, at beginning of next era
    To win we will NOT need a large number of cities, but a few very good ones which
    can be dedicated to wondering building, while the others do well in commerce/science.
    We'll surely want to found a city near Stone soon, preferably on a river. The spot
    about 5 NE of Tyre which catches both stone and incense might be good, otherwise
    East of Tyre is some stone and ivory together.

    (Edit - Roster - Final list was TBA, with first preference to those who showed interest for RBC1 but couldn't fit that roster, or a conquest, including: Arathorn, Hotrod, Maniac, Ridgelake, Skyfish, Sulla, as well as FRFR players :p )

    BTW, with 160 turns max, if 5 players, we'll see at most 3 turns each, possibly
    never a war, possibly just a few hours total game time, so don't let "too busy"
    keep you away :)



    3600 BC RBC2 Game

    :hammer:

    Happy Conquests,
    Charis
     
  2. LKendter

    LKendter Chieftain

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    Burial Mound (Temple)
    Check carefully - this may simply give you culture with NO happy help!
     
  3. Speaker

    Speaker Chieftain

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  4. Louis XXIV

    Louis XXIV Le Roi Soleil

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  5. Charis

    Charis Realms Beyond

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    Tnx Lee, Louis, good eye! :scan:

    I actually did just want the culture from the mounds, but didn't realize there would be no happy face. That comes from a *separate* temple improvement, available with Mysticism. I've tried not to read much on the conquests, because the 'set' startups make almost any info on the map or strategy spoilerish (not referring to the mound info of course)

    I would ask readers to avoid giving any info about the map itself (as XXIV's first line does ;P ) In this case, no harm since it's a historical civ we pretty much know the location of other civs, but otherwise we're trying to avoid learning things we shouldn't know yet -- this will apply to all conquest scenarios.

    Of course, please do continue to point out things we might be doing better (or that we might be missing) -- all the players involved do like the learning aspect of the game.

    Thanks again for the kind lurker comments, and best wishes to all running 'Conquest' games and SG's (especially Lee -- I'm torn between following your Japan game closely vs staying ignorant of the scenario :p )
    Charis
     
  6. Louis XXIV

    Louis XXIV Le Roi Soleil

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    Sorry about that. I'll avoid saying any spoilers. Although I don't think I can say much else anyway, since I don't have the game.
     
  7. hotrod0823

    hotrod0823 Chieftain

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    Charis I would rather play here as one of the 5 than be a sixth in RBC1. I will post as such in the other thread.

    Hotrod
     
  8. ToddMarshall

    ToddMarshall Maniac - Stellar Wingman

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    Well.... since im Alternated in RBC1 I think I'd rather just hop in here since I'd be guaranteed a slot. However I wouldn't be able to play till late thursday or sometime friday so please slot me accordingly.
     
  9. Charis

    Charis Realms Beyond

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    ToddMarshall, Hotrod -- great, you guys are in, with Todd going 'last' in the lineup. That's four, so one more slot. I think Sirian is resting up for now and Sulla is passing on Mesopotamia. Arathorn and Skyfish (Ridgelake too?) mentioned possible interest on the RBCiv board, so we'll see if one or more can confirm here (I'll expand slots as needed, I don't want to see anyone show interest then miss BOTH RBC1 and 2. Or heck, we'll just start 3... slaps self... must... show... control!... :crazyeye: )

    Louis XXIV -- no problem at all, was more a general comment that we're not looking for meta-game info. :cool:

    Charis
     
  10. Speaker

    Speaker Chieftain

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    It- I have never played with Charis, so I'm not sure what to expect, although I have read many of his games, so I suspect it will be like either following T-Hawk (always seems to be thinking along the same lines as me) or following Sirian (never seems to be thinking along the same lines as me). At this point, it looks more like T-Hawk than Sirian.

    3560BC (1): Follow Charis' instructions re: workers. Curragh's find the end of the world, which is a bit odd. Makes sense from a realism standpoint, but not from a gameplay one. Drop science a bit to save money, but research at the same rate.

    3520BC (2): Contact with Medes, sporting Xerxes face. They have 60 gold and know how to domesticate Animals, while we are up Ceremonial Burial, as well as Wood and Stone Working.

    Here is where I run into a quandary. Both Egypt and Mycenae have 2 workers available and will trade them for Mining. According to Epic rules I don't think I could buy them, but I see these scenarios as being different than your typical epic? Before I go on I would like opinions/a ruling. If I was playing this SP I would probably do it, taking advantage of the adept trading I (by "I" I mean "Charis" here) have already done, however I don't want to violate RB rules or the spirit of RB rules, since none are in place for the scenarios as of yet.

    As I see it:

    Pro
    If we buy all 4 workers, we will likely easily win the game.

    Con
    If we buy all 4 workers we will likely easily win the game.

    Will be able to play the game tomorrow afternoon, so until then...

    To Be Continued
     
  11. ToddMarshall

    ToddMarshall Maniac - Stellar Wingman

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    Ridgelake is out of town till the 13th. Hopefully we can save him a spot in one of the 2 games. Skyfish told me he usually only reads his suscribed threads now so maybe he could use a pm about the games being started. Todd is glad he has his usual "anchor" position in the lineup (expansion phase isnt my favorite part of the game....)

    Edit: Just saw Speakers post. IIRC Demigod starts with 3 workers? If so normal Epics rules would let you buy one off each civ I believe. I've no problem with buying all of them in this situation if others don't however. The AI is now much better about replacing workers than when the exploit was originally listed also.
     
  12. Charis

    Charis Realms Beyond

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    Speaker, thanks for checking on that -- good question!

    To set the context if anyone is confused, "overbuying" AI workers is considered a 'no-no' in RBCiv Epics, as it is exploitative of an AI too dumb to know how much it is hurting itself.

    The full explanation of the rule is found below, but I'll give my take as a more seat-of-the-pants rule: If taking advantage of a AI dumb move virtually cripples them, it's a no-no. As Speaker said "If we buy all 4 workers, we will likely easily win the game." Bingo, so that's a no-no.

    Looking now at Todd's edit, my answer was the same. At Demigod level (or deity), buying ONE starting worker from any civ is enough, don't buy more. (At Emperor or less, in SG's we don't buy one of its starting workers)

    (Note people feel strongly on both sides of this issue, some see no problem whatsoever with buying these, others including Sirian have seen first hand just how bad it does damage the AI and shun it vigorously. For SP I wouldn't bark at anyone for choosing one way or the other, but for the 'common good' in Epics and SG's we do strive for a honorable highground which is neither cheesy nor legalistic. The Epics have a slighly greater emphasis on cheese avoidance, and the SG's a slightly higher priority to becoming too harsh or restrictive. Todd also points out that since the rule was first penned the costs and other factors have changed. In any case, whoever 'hosts' the game can tighten up or loosen things as needed, keeping with the the spirit of non-exploitative reputable play)

    We'll go for no more than one starting/early worker purchase per civ for this and DG games in this series, unless otherwise specified. Thanks again for asking :goodjob:

    Charis


    PS for those still unclear... :crazyeye:

    The RBCiv Epics page of Exploitative Tactics --
    http://www.realmsbeyond.net/civ/etactics.html

    "Seed Corn": When the AI's sell off too many of their workers too early, they are selling off their civ's "seed corn", so to speak, crippling themselves for negligible short term gains. Short Version: overbuying AI workers is now officially an exploit! Long version: This aspect may be addressed through the expansion, but for now it remains a serious balance issue. Players may not knowingly acquire the last two workers from any AI civ, until the year 1000BC has arrived. At that point, any number of worker buys are allowed. Until then, players must restrict worker buying using their honest best judgment. Deity games allow for more worker trades than other difficulties, including buying one of an AI's three starting workers at any time. Emperor games should not buy any workers until the civ has had time to produce a third (they start with two), which will be at least 2500BC. Monarch games should just avoid all worker trade until 1000BC, unless you see specific evidence to make you believe they have at least three workers. Less experienced players may have difficulties adhering to this, just use your best judgment. Community veterans will know how to follow this edict. No stealing the seed corn from stupid AI's.
     
  13. Coffee

    Coffee Cdn Expat

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    Well if theres room for one more..I'd like to try a scenario.
     
  14. Stuck_as_a_Mac

    Stuck_as_a_Mac Aptenodytes forsteri

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    [Lurker Comment... Also afraid of Big Boot and A Certain NDA]
    WB, Charis. As for your worker issue: Durring Beta YUMBO!, This was a problem. Not only for this conquest, but for ALL of them. The AI was all too happy to get rid of excess workers. I've yet to go out and buy my CD (I have my director to thank for that...), so I was unaware that this problem was not fixed. The Epics might want to put a subclause in the Seed Corn rule stating that when doing conquests, you cannot buy the workers. Just wanted to pop in with this little tidbit. [/lurker]
     
  15. Arathorn

    Arathorn Catan player

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    I'm still interested, if you'll have me. Not sure I was quick enough to claim a spot, however. Up to Charis' discretion as the game originator.

    My $.02 on the worker issue (would be the same whether I play or just lurk) is to buy one from each civ. That might hurt them a bit (oh well) and help the human some, but as a designed feature in a short game.... Buying both is probably killer. Buying none feels like passing up too good of an opportunity. One/civ seems like a reasonable compromise (at 100+ gold value each, they're not dirt cheap either).

    I think a nice way that Atari/Firaxis could/should have solved this would be to make worker buys only available with a certain tech (map making????). Oh well.

    Arathorn
     
  16. Charis

    Charis Realms Beyond

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    Arathorn, you're our fifth and last for this game, since you expressed interest previously in the pre-game RBCiv thread. Coffee, I hope to hook up with you in an upcoming one shortly. The game may be finished before Ridgelake is back and before Skyfish gets the game, so I don't think anyone will have to wait long for another one.

    Glad to see that one worker from each civ works for you as well.
    Having worker buys only with a certain tech? Gosh there's an effective and easy solution! Map making is the right 'time frame' for that, too. Equally easy and 'logical' would be to require a road network to that civ, although this would likely delay it quit a bit longer. Given comments by beta testers that this was a big issue, perhaps such a delay is justified.

    Updated Roster for RBC2:
    Charis
    Speaker
    Hotrod
    Arathorn
    ToddMarshall aka Maniac

    Hopefully this will go well (and fairly quick) and we can pull new folks in for upcoming games.
    Charis
     
  17. Sullla

    Sullla Patrician Roman Dictator

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    [butting in]

    I'm out for this game, so you all have fun with it. I would, however, like to set up and run the second game in the Conquests scenarios series for Rise of Rome, so I'd like to keep that in the back of everyone's minds.

    I think a nice way that Atari/Firaxis could/should have solved this would be to make worker buys only available with a certain tech (map making????). Oh well.

    I really, REALLY wish I had thought of that when we were beta testing. We could have used you, Arathorn. :D

    [/interruption]
     
  18. Coffee

    Coffee Cdn Expat

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    Ok thanks. I'll just have to monitor the RB threads more often. Next time then. Enjoy.
     
  19. Charis

    Charis Realms Beyond

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    Sulla,

    > I'm out for this game, so you all have fun with it. I would,
    > however, like to set up and run the second game in the
    > Conquests scenarios series for Rise of Rome, so I'd like to keep
    > that in the back of everyone's minds.

    :goodjob:

    That sounds great! 'cept it won't be in the "back" of our minds, it will be time to start it before we know it :p (Once you and our other delayed compatriots are able to get the game) You clearly have the best background for it, so whatever parameters you set will be fine. I was wondering, however, with the fairly high interest if it would make any sense to run an 'A' and 'B', each with a different civ. That would be Carthage (which you desired) and either Rome as the flip side of that war, or one of the other two civs to reduce cross-talk possibility. (Comparisons between A and B would be most useful on the same difficulty lvl. If the lvls were different, it would be better for both to run as the same civ to see how much the lvl affects the play) If the A/B went well, it would probably spawn something like a multi-civ-drawn RBCiv Napoleonic Epic (later down the road!). What I don't have a good a feel as you might is which of the conquest scenarios would work best for this A/B approach. Speak up if there's one better suited, or if you think that would be too much too soon to set up for the 2nd conquest scenario.

    If you do think an A/B pair of games would work well for this, we can pull discussion and signups to the the RBC Discussion thread, which I just opened --
    RBCiv SG Discussion Thread

    Charis
     
  20. Speaker

    Speaker Chieftain

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    It- I have never played with Charis, so I'm not sure what to expect, although I have read many of his games, so I suspect it will be like either following T-Hawk (always seems to be thinking along the same lines as me) or following Sirian (never seems to be thinking along the same lines as me). At this point, it looks more like T-Hawk than Sirian.

    3560BC (1): Follow Charis' instructions re: workers. Curragh's find the end of the world, which is a bit odd. Makes sense from a realism standpoint, but not from a gameplay one. Drop science a bit to save money, but research at the same rate.

    3520BC (2): Contact with Medes, sporting Xerxes face. They have 60 gold and know how to domesticate Animals, while we are up Ceremonial Burial, as well as Wood and Stone Working.

    Here is where I run into a quandary. Both Egypt and Mycenae have 2 workers available and will trade them for Stone Working. According to Epic rules I don't think I could buy them, but I see these scenarios as being different than your typical epic? Before I go on I would like opinions/a ruling. If I was playing this SP I would probably do it, taking advantage of the adept trading I (by "I" I mean "Charis" here) have already done, however I don't want to violate RB rules or the spirit of RB rules, since none are in place for the scenarios as of yet.

    As I see it:

    Pro
    If we buy all 4 workers, we will likely easily win the game.

    Con
    If we buy all 4 workers we will likely easily win the game.

    Will be able to play the game tomorrow afternoon, so until then...

    Continued

    Notice we have already bought a worker from Mycenae, so I will hold off on buying another. Buy an Egyptian Worker for Wood Working. Trade Stone Working and Ceremonial Burial to Medes for Animal Domestication and 35 gold. Frag a barb camp in the middle of the desert. We now have a healty 66 gold in our treasury.

    3480BC (3): Workers split up into pairs of a slave and native, one chopping trees, the other mining. Save some cash by dropping research while maintaining the same rate.

    3440BC (4): Finish irrigation, start Bronze Working, due in 12 at max, which will give us Tyrian Guards and the Colossus. Mycenae and Medes both have Tribal Council, but lack Communications with the others. I'm hoping the other two will beline for TC and we can get it cheap.

    3400BC (5): Babylon has a worker available but I don't think it's worth any of our techs @Monopoly and I think they'll get contact with Medes soon, so I don't want to give them trading opps.

    3360BC (6): Frag a barb camp. Pick up Tribal Council from Babylon for Animal Domestication and 10 gold. with their borders a mere 7 tiles apart and a Medes scout running around, I decide to earn some money trading contacts, and get 50 gold from Medes for contact with Babylon.

    3320BC (7): Tyre Granary => Barracks (will be helped along with chop and without lots of food we will need to mix in military). Frag another barb camp. Working on chopping for the irrigation chain. It may be easier to bring it south from Ugarit, since we already have roads there.

    3280BC (8): Sidon Barracks => Archer. Popped hut gives a warrior.

    3240BC (9): Ugarit Burial Mound (expansion in 9) => Granary (will be helped along by a chop in progress).

    3200BC (10): Tyre chop helps barracks along, due next turn (vetoable to marketplace if so desired). Sidon's growth requires 10% lux, so Bronze Working is now due in 6.

    Conclusion- All three builds are vetoable. Our land is not too fertile, so we'll just have to make the best of it. If we had a clear shot at the river the game would likely be over already. As is, I like our chances. I leave it in the more than capable hands of Hotrod.

    RBC2 - 3200BC
     

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