RBC3b - Ancient Mediterranean Mayhem - Persia

Looking at the number of green dots left in Asia Minor, and the number of units we're bringing to bear at Byzantium, and the progress is excellent! :goodjob:

I'm glad you didn't pay good money to ally vs Rome, that would be utter folly. We should (imo) continue to pay for alliances vs Macedon from our *near* neighbors, Egypt and Scythians, as such a war would not be phony. But definitely don't spend money on alliances vs anyone other then Macedon. Besides, we want the Rome war to end ASAP, not be locked into 20 turns of peace to avoid killing our rep.

Woohoo on the leader! The FP being horribly broken makes the decision easier, to go for an army. Our first one is kicking tush, the thought of two of them working together?! :hammer:

Since you made a Nume army, his role is clear. We take Byzantium and plop him in there with a few extra units and some cats. Their turkish rear will be irrevocably cut off. Before Cyrus arrival I too thought the 'opposing' city was best. If the next leader prefers, that route will still work, but with the defensive army I no longer fear trying to hold Byzantium.

One minor comment however, on the filling of the army. It's key not to mix units of different "speed" in the army, but it's not a bad idea to mix the units -- since it will defend with its best defender and attack with its best attacker. If you had put one immortal / two Numes, then the army would attack with strength 4, not 2 (a huge difference, giving him hoplite-killing counterattack potential), yet it has two numes in the army defending. Alternately, one could put in two immortals, making great advantage of the army's blitz ability. Since the army gets two attacks, having two immortals is all you need. With that approach you still get one nume on top of defense. (In a recent game I had a wickedly effective early army with two crusaders, 5.2.1 and one musketeer, 2.5.1)

Let's hope later we can pull down another leader for a heavy cav army :P

Good job expanding and keeping up the city/settler push. Once Byz is under our control and is secure, we'll have the option of either having a major 'settler' expansion, or having a war to takeover Egypt or Scythians. Speaking of Egypt, the minimap below suggests a VERY effective chokepoint on the Nile where we could take 3-4 Egypt cities, cut them in half, and take away their entry point into our lands. Food for thought, but later on.

Charis
 
got it, will play tomorrow.
 
Charis, thanks for the nice words. Playing with you, Rubberjello, and Hotrod makes me want to do the best I possibly can do.

On the army's contents, sorry, I guess I miss typed that. I only filled the army with three Num Merks. I thought that a defensive army would be best holding our city just off the choke point, but your point of capturing Byzz-town is much better.

Bugs
 
One important thing to note is that the Forbidden Palace, broken or not, is far away. I this Scenario the FP is not available until Republic. The only thing I would have considered rushing would be the Heroic Epic but I am not sure if that is available to us yet. Any army at this point seems like the best choice.

Hotrod
 
@Hotrod - We already have the Heroic Epic built. :)

Excellent turns! Things are looking much, much better that when I touched the game last. Hmmmmmm.....:hmm: Naahhhh!
 
Preturn:
Everything looks good. I suspect MT is probably the only tech we need to walk the world.

IBT:
Macedonian Heavy Cav kills our Numec, so Macedonia has Heavy Cavs, or does everyone knows except me?

145:
Goth+Cathage ally against Roma.
Celts+Scythia ally against Goth.

Persepolis makes immo, starts immo.
Beirut makes Numec, starts Numec.
Melitene makes Numec, starts immo.
Ganza makes settler, starts immo.

I am edgy with all the macedonian troops in our territory. I will make my aim for my 10 turns to clean out macedonian troops in our territory . I will try to assemble a clean-up force at Iconium to remove this threat. Once the threat is removed, I plan to use this force to capture Corinth.

Antandrus is ours, but our army is redlined. We spawned a GL. I make another army. we get 220g, wow Macedonians must be really rich.

We have 2 luxuries yet to be roaded, spice and gems, I'll try to get that in order.

I pulled back the settler team, feeling that the frontline is still too uncertain for non-combat units to be this exposed.

IBT:
A counterattack with hoplites and heavy cavs from Macedonians costed us 6 immos and 2 Numecs. Hoplites are so imbalanced in this scenario.

140:
I pulled back our assault force on Cyzicus onto our Numec army, in hope to avoid another round of assaults. Those heavy cavs are killing us.

Trade Cathage 975g+18gpt+Incense+WM for MT.
Trade Egypt MT for 66g+Literature.

Strange? Celts, Goth and Scythia gets MT and Literature right after I got them? I can't do a 3-fer or get our $$$ back. Can someone explain this to me? I have just dumped our stash of cash. Is there something in the C3C rules that prvents or avoids 3-fers? :smoke:


Switched a number of cities to Heavy cavs.

Start 40turn gambit on Monotheism, the only tech not discovered by anyone else, researchable by us.

135:
Rome and Celts signed peace treaty.
Egypt and Goth signed alliance against Scythia.

Upgrading from horseman to heavy cav cost 90g a piece. I am sorry I emptied our coffer.

Start a solo scientist research.

130:
Roma declares on Scythia.
We connected spice, a number of cities have WLTED.

125:
Cyzicus is ours, +264g.

Yes...I got an army plugged in the penisula bottleneck.

120:
Piling more troops on the bottleneck.

Going after the last MAcedonian city in our territory - Corinth.

115:
Corinth is sacked, +189g.

Hmm, AI has been avoiding our army stack. So if they are not coming for us, we will have to go to them.Troops assembling for the assault on Byzantium.

IBT:
Macedonia made a troop landing near Beirut.

110:
Looks like Macedonia has another troop landing planned. I will station 2 heav cavs in Antioch, we can use those 2 heav cavs to shadow any Macedonia ships in our seas. These 2 heavy cavs should cover Iconium, Antioch, Beirut and Tyre.
I will also station 2 heavy cavs in Antandrus to cover Miletus and Cyzcius. I will also keep 1 heavy cav in Sinope to cover Trapezus. A landing in this sector seems unlikely though, especially after I take Byzantium.


105:
Ancyra is our aids-station(has rax). I moved injured troops to heal there, so feel free to move those troops where appropriate.

I noticed that any army gets 2 movements even if they have 1-movement troops. The GL i spawned in early turn, I will make a 2 heavy cav+1 Numec army.

Byzantium is ours, +206g. Hmm, we can earn our living just by sacking/capturing macedonian cities.

Hurray!!! Byzantium has rax, I am moving up our aid-station to Byzantium. I am moving the heavy cav away from Sinope since a Macedonian troop landing is not longer viable against Sinope.

Err, army gets unit movement+1, so I am going back to a 3 heavy cav army.

100:
Troop movements, converged our 3 armies into 1 huge SOD in Byzantium.

Summary
(1) Tech-wise no one has monotheism yet, so our gambit still looks good.

(2) Gem luxury (last available luxury) will be only in 3 turns. (East of Miletus).

(3) We seem to have fallen behind on our victory goals, have 25% pop and 9%land (req. 50% pop and 20%land). Might be a good idea to start building up new cities and growing current ones. I did not do so during my turns as I was up against heavy cavs with my immortals and we were taking heavy losses.

(4) On the hindside, I did not regret making the MT deal. While we did not get a 3-fer for it, the heavy cavs we started building really turned the tide for us in battle. In our government, $$$ can only be used for upgrades and trading, and since I also very much doubt we need any of the remaining tech to fuilfil our victory goals, I hope I did not make too bad a mistake. :smoke:

(5) I have left the SOD in Byzantium unmoved, as we have just completed a phase in our conquest. It seemed inappropriate for me to make a 1-turn battle plan and may end up messing the charis's battle strategies. So please feel free to mobilise those troops where appropriate. All troops in Byzantium are fortified and still has movements

(6) There are 3 galleys west-bound from their earlier landings. I am more concerned of the 6 east-bound galleys (see screenshots).

(7) Charis, our territory was too large and I got a little lazy, used GOTO to get troops to Ancrya. I believed I made all my GOTOs to end at my turn. :smoke:

The save

Scythia_Front.jpg



Coastal_Defences.jpg



Battle_plans.jpg
 
Originally posted by Charis
Besides, we want the Rome war to end ASAP, not be locked into 20 turns of peace to avoid killing our rep.


Crap, I made a huge mistake. I didn't realise we wanted peace with Roma, I flatly rejected him. :smoke:
 
Good progress there!
We can't trade the more advanced techs with Goths, Celts, or Scythians because they are working on their own (much cut down, I suspect) tech tree(s). I say tree(s) because for some wierd reason the Scythians can learn Astronomy while the other two can't.
 
GormDragon, On the tech trading:

It appears that the "barbarian civs" such as the celts can't learn all the techs - they have a limited subset. This got me too in my trading. Its not that they already have the tech, they just can't get it.

In my case it was more clear. I gave them writing so I could trade the techs that depended on it (Map Making and Code of Laws). After giving them writing, I could not trade anything further, even though I knew I had to be ahead in tech. The only conclusion that made sense was that only the 4 player civs can learn most of the techs.
 
Thank you Greebley and rubberjello, appreciate the heads up.
 
I must say two things... i) my eyes hurt from the number of times they
popped out of their head reading of the last turn, and ii) gormdragan
had an OUTSTANDING turn! :hammer:

The ebb and flow went something linke this...

> I didn't realise we wanted peace with Roma, I flatly rejected him
:eek: Do look over previous turn notes carefully :P

> Macedonian Heavy Cav kills our Numec, so Macedonia has Heavy Cavs
:eek: Holy cow, as if the hops aren't ripping us up enough!!

--> But then you get us MT, cool. Expensive or not, a crucial tech :P

> I am edgy with all the macedonian troops in our territory. I will make my aim
for my 10 turns to clean out macedonian troops in our territory .
:eek: First thought, "Oh no!! Until we cut off the supply line coming through
Byzantium this is futile - treating the symptom and not the root problem.

--> Yet you (quickly) got the supply cut off with the army, and even
better, capture Byzantium! :hammer:

> Antandrus is ours, but our army is redlined.
:eek:
--> "We spawned a GL. I make another army." Woo! [dance]

--> "Corinth is sacked, +189g" WOW! Not only the bottleneck, but all the cities too?!

> I noticed that any army gets 2 movements even if they have 1-movement troops.
The GL I spawned in early turn, I will make a 2 heavy cav+1 Numec army.
:eek: OMG no!!! It's +1 move, not move 2 for armies!

--> Err, army gets unit movement+1, so I am going back to a 3 heavy cav army.

Phew!!!!!

> Troop movements, converged our 3 armies into 1 huge SOD in Byzantium.

Oh ya!! I'm going to have FUN with this turn, I can tell ya that!

I wouldn't be too concerned about the victory goals yet. Our main goal is to stop
getting abused by our mortal enemy, and to see him wiped off the map. The territory
and population will come. Hope for Rome and Carthage to have a bloody, painful
stalemate in the meantime. (BTW, short gotos for hurt troops to nearest rax is fine)

My initial thoughts now, looking at your map -- Macedonians are on the run, and the more
troops they have wasted now on ships, the better. We have the initiative and it will
be fully pressed in the next turn. Next step seems at first glance to be to cut out
their heart, capturing Athens. (It has the Oracle, or it would be a raze) Then
Themopylae and Sparta need a razing. That will be the end of their productive core,
and the end of Macedon. Then we sweep up and wipe them off the map. (I won't get
past Athens this turn, if I even get near there, so the Green line option will
be up to the next leader) The big question is whether to leave the Nume army in
Byzantium to take that threat off my mind, or to bring them to defend the attacking
SOD as we move forward -- need to think on that one a little more.

I appreciate not making a snap decision on the battle plan on your last turn,
and wow, nice drawings :goodjob:

Well done!
Charis
 
Since we are going for the kill and our culture is close to Macedonia, do we really need to raze anymore?

Other than the SOD, we have 5 Numecs, 4 Immo and 1 catapults close by, on their way to Byzantium. Most of these were our mop-up force. I might be wrong but we might be able to hold the cities we capture. Just a thought. I am a greedy man :blush:
 
This may sound crazy but: How much of a force can we muster to hit Eygpt now? Do they have Merc or for that matter Heavy cavs?

Just a thought.

PS. As far as razing the Macedonians cities I think it is the way to go. We can fill in them later. I don't think flips are the question as much as it is the need to have a few units there to avoid allowing the city to be recaptured. Raze it and there is nothing to recapture. We just have to be aware of poachers.
 
Ah...i see the logic....I am slow, sorry. We could capture before Byzantium because we don't have to worry about recaptures, but a different scenario altogether beyond Byzantium. :blush:

With regards to attacking Egypt, I think we make about 1 Heavy Cav per turn, 1-2 numec per turn. stripping garrisons, I think we can form a 6+ heavy cav, 6+ Numec strike force immediately. However, the problem is the egyptian units already in our territories. There are about 20+ moving along our territories towards Scythia. If we want to strike at Egypt, we have to be able to simulatanouesly deal with these or at least re-garrison our inner cities to survive their assaults. It is doable, but probably take us around 10 to 15 turns to prep for it. Incidentally, those egyptian units comprises mainly of archers/spears and chariots. I did not recall seeing any egyptian heavy cavs but I earlier trade the tech to them :smoke:
 
gorm - Outstanding set of turns!! :goodjob:

I think we should take out our mortal enemy first, before we get involved in anything else. A two front war would slow us down tremendously.
 
I'm not so sure. Moving units from the Southern cities to the Front lines take 4-5 turns even with the fast movement on roads. I think a force of immortals or heavys can put a hurt on Egypt now. But maybe it is being a bit aggressive. :flamedevil:

Hotrod
 
SO CLOSE!!!! (more on that soon)

I open up the save file, and have a few things to note.
While we're not close to victory conditions, we are distinctly in the
lead over top contender Carthage, and we're WAY ahead on the 'tie-breaker'
condition of score. 50 turns done, so 80 more to go, that's 1.6 turns each.
While the score curve is constant, it's the shape of the power curve I like.
Carthage is doing far better than Rome. This highlights the need to cut Rome
a little slack so they can beat down our score-opponents. That is, of course,
unless we wipe out the Macedons so fast that we want a piece of Rome. Still,
do we want to face Legion II's or War Chariots. After Macedon I would have to
wager Egypt and/or Scythians are next, not Rome by a long shot. Looking at
foreign affairs, wow, good job keeping the dogpile on Greece :P

Tech? Scythians and Celts have Astronomy. Rome and Carthage both have a lot -
Philo, Monarchy, Edu, Astro, Siege Craft. Boy the latter would be nice.

Hmm, Rome will talk, and we're not allied against them, so we can end that
war now. I make peace with Rome, getting a small discount on Philosophy
to WM+25gpt+9g (yes, I chose gpt to help them out vs Carthage, and so we could
pay the latter cash for the next deal and less gpt)

Carthage can sell us Siege Craft, for dyes, most of our gold and about 17gpt. Done.
Egypt alone can take Philosophy, and we trade it for Astro, Edu, WM+1g.
We now see Carthage and Rome have Medicine (and Monarchy), Egypt has Monarchy.
Did you notice how powerful Bacchanalia is? 3 faces content in EVERY city, available
with new Philosophy, and cost of 500 shields. I look at the build queue, OMG, are
we warmongers or what?!?! Screen after screen of heavy cavs! :P
Not only that, but the ONLY wonder of any kind under construction anywhere is
Bacchy in Marsala. Hehe, and that's a fishing village city, Susa starts on it
and that puppy is *OURS* in 25 turns. (I micro Susa to 20spt)

We're in *desperate* need of workers to have some excellent cities become
productive, like Babylon.

[0] 100BC - I go over the city queue's carefully, and make the following swaps.
Cities with no rax are taken off mil units, and put on settlers.
Our mil units take 60, 40, 40 and 30 shields. So 8 shield cities are put on
fire cats or immortals (40), 6 shields go on Numes, to avoid waste.
Macedon cities are starved down to reduce flip risk. They also get a temple whipped.
Tarsus gets its granary whipped and food surplus to benefit from that.
These rearrangements increase our income by over 20 gpt :P

Ok, time to look at the front. Three HvyCavs in the open, in range of immortals.
Off we go, killing all three with Darius and a friend.

(IBT) Macedons and Celts come to peace. That's one HUGE line of Egptian units
roaming through our lands unfettered. It makes one nervous with all the undefended
cities in our midst. :P A few Macedon cav head toward Byz but can't reach it.

[1] 95BC - We shell Maronea. Not too much damage, but enough. Our army kills two hops, then
an immortal kills the third and last. To capture or to raze... Not an easy call given
the proximity to Athens, but then again, I expect Athens itself to fall shortly.
In order to be able to press on with the attack, I capture. It has rax, granary and
walls, excellent. We'll start and temple-whip soon. (Speaking of capture choices,
I note the expired GL is in Sparta, Oracle in Athens)
(IBT) Two Macedon cavs redline and retreat outside Maronea. They're toast :P
Several ships show up outside Beirut, I move cavs nearby to counterattack if they land.

[2] 90BC - Gordium is not ultra-corrupt, it switches to courthouse and whips it.
At Thessalonica we lost a Hvy cav, but knocked out five defenders to capture it.
In the last two turns we've upgraded about 10 cats to fire cats.

(IBT) Resistance in Thessa ends. Do you know how many troops a fleet of 4-transport
Macedon galleys can bring?!?!? Thank goodness they don't know! This armada comes to
drop of **two** cav next to Beirut.

[3] 85 BC - We start by slaughtering the two puny landers, overcoming laughter to do so.
Our Nume army completes a very brief mission to pillage the only two tiles connecting
Northern Macedonian from the South. Apart from harbors they're now disconnected. :D
The other two attacking armies are at half strength and sit this round to heal.
We do have enough extra units, btw, to send a flanking wing of slow units at Sardis.

(IBT) Carthage and Celts ally vs Egypt. (Good, less focus of Egypt on us)
However, Scythaians and Macedon come to peace. We loose a Nume on counterattack.

A volcano goes active next to Neopolis!! :P

[4] 80 BC - Macedon now has a wedge driven across it, tis lovely to see.
Our Nume army whacks a redlined hop-settler pair. Thebes is a little further
back. We hit it, but can't take it this turn.

(IBT) Not a PEEP from Macedon. They're SO gassed. They sign peace with Goths,
and the two of them then ally vs... Carthage.

[5] 75 BC - Defenses in Macedon are getting thinner and thinner, and our new units
pour in every turn. Although I thought I wouldn't have the strength to do it,
I split off a few small task forces for the upcoming cities. Two Green Swords are
in the open, and they're shredded by the new fire cats.

Thebes has just two defenders and our immortal army takes 'em both, and the city!
Not only that, we catch two hops behind it, and have some units next to Athens,
and our heavy cav army knocks out two defenders!

We found Kandahar in the NE area in the gap between Bampur and Behistum.
We found Altin Tepe in another large gap between Trapezus and Borazjan.
(IBT) Nuthin'. Carthage and Scythia ally vs Egypt. Macedons and Goths ally vs Rome.

[6] 70 BC - Heavy can and the HCav army take Athens! We keep it, to capture the
Oracle. (There's something good in C3C for capturing a capital, no? Increased flip
chance?)

We found Bunyan and Charsadda in the middle of nowhere, in the desert near Egypt.
The latter is ON incense. We also found Ura Tyube in the central gap between
Zela and Iconium. (Yah, I made a fair amount of settlers in addition to fighting)
Rome and Carthage have Monotheism, btw.
(IBT) Carthage and Scythia ally vs Egypt. (Didn't they do this last turn??)
A hoplite runs out of a city about to be sacked to attack an immortal fortified
in the mountain. It loses as we chuckle.

[7] 65 BC - We're in striking range of about FOUR Macedonian cities this turn,
albeit smaller groups. Let's see what we can do...

Group A - Six slow units converge on Sardica, but we only need two immortals to
kill the two hoplites, and the city is ours.

Group B - Thermopylae starts with a Hvy Cav losing, but our HvyCav army wins two
and... that's it? The city is ours!!

Group C - Argos starts with an elite immortal losing, but the Immo army wins two
and... that's it, the city is ours!!

Group D - Ambracia is shelled with Fire Cats. Just two again. can't take it with
just immortals, so the Nume army finishes off the last one, and it's ours.
Not bad for a day's work!! (Lots of resistors though, insufficient quelling forces)
(IBT) Hoplite loses to HvyCav on a hill.

[8] 60 BC - Resistance over in Sardicia (our big stack of lil guys), and a few quellings.
A temple is whipped there.

Sardis is founded in the desert just east of our capital.
New Perseopolis is founded just NE of Byzantium, between two old ruins sites.

Stacks head toward Dyrrhachium and Pharsalos. Armies rest in cities near Sparta.
(IBT) Macedon and Egypt sign a peace treaty. Ship sets sail from Sparta. If it's
a lone settler I'm gonna scream. No Macedonian attacks. Resistance ends in Argos.
Over eighteen Carthage galleys stream past the Greek short, heading back South.

[9] 55 BC - Courthouse whipped in Zohak, as it has potential.
New Susa is founded past Gordium, near Assyut of Egypt.

Dyrrhachium falls to two immortals and a cav.
(IBT) Athens resistance ends. Outside Pharsalos a hoplite attacks into the
darkness. Thebes resistence ends, but that throws it into civil unrest for the turn.

[10] 50BC -

The battle for Sparta! Bombardment fails, but our immortal army does not, killing
top two hoplites (he'll need to rest now though) Our cav army also knocks out two,
and also gets hurt, but there's still another defender.

Note, I've been irrigating a long path down from about 11 squares north of
Perseopolis down to our capital. Finish the task and plz... get it to size 12!

At Pharsalos we have three elite immortals to go first. The first one dies,
second wins, and third... spawns a MGL, Xerxes! [dance]
We immediately fill him up with three Heavy cavs (vets, a few pts dmg) at
Dyrrh.

- Gem luxury (last available luxury) will be only in 3 turns. (East of Miletus).

To next leader...
- There's one settler outside of Merv that is on short goto to the ruin site
where a Nume is already in place to defend his new city. Actually, there are
*five* unmoved settlers and two workers this turn.
- Whip the temples in Macedonian as soon as their out of resistance.
-The mighty Baccanalia is due in 15 in Susa, and barring a SGL rush we'll get it.
- If I forgot this turn, please whip Bampur temple and Behisthn
- I've not kept close tabs on cash, but we now have over 3700g in the bank.
We're on top with score, power, and victory pts, with 13% area and 27% population.

*EDIT- On the turn you hope to attack and take Sparta, I would go to all our current allies vs Macedon and cancel the alliance, just so the civ dying doesn't hurt our rep for 'breaking' the alliance.

*NOTE* When we capture Sparta, we'll get the Great Library. It *WILL* be active
for one turn, as it gets its beneficial actions THEN checks if it's obsolte.
So we will get Monarchy and Medicine when Sparta falls :goodjob:
Medicine should help us raise our population.

Here's our empire... one turn short of eliminating the Macedonians!! (Actually, probably four turns, as the only sane
move is to send our two armies right two steps to the city to heal, then come back and capture Sparta. But the other city should fall next turn)

RBC3b-Persians-50bc.jpg


Rubberjello <-- Up
hotrod0823 <-- On deck

RBC3b-Persians-50BC Save File <-- EDIT, was wrong file earlier

Good luck,
Charis

PS to Hotrod - you have no idea how many Egyptian units are *STREAMING* through our lands. Greece will be gone in a handful of turns, probably once the armies heal and capture Sparta. At this point, what I would probably do is line up as best I could a large number of heavy cav along the roads near where Egypt
is running through. Be sure no deals/treaties ongoing, declare war, and decimate their army just hitting what's in our territories.
With that done, probably at a 5:1 loss ratio, we can bring our armies to bear and swallow their cities.

PPS - EDIT - I think the gems are online (gormdragan was looking at my improperly old link for save file??)
Our military is 'strong' compared to all barbarians and the Macedonians, but we're "weak" compared to Rome and Carthage. We have about 15 *under* our allowed military (sort of by choice, as I went very settler heavy, but we could definitely use a lot more Heavy cav for the next phase) Egypt is in Anarchy, and Rome and Carthage are in Republic. At 13% area and 27% pop we have a long way to go to 20% land and 50% pop. That means we need to control a whopping 50% more area, and double our *relative* population. Peaceful settling and swallowing Egypt should get us most of the way there, but perhaps not all the way.
 
Wow that's one impressive set of turns. :goodjob:

I could have sworn that the gem would come online in 3 turns. I am suprised we still need to wait 3 turns.

Looks like we are more than on the right course to win this game by a long mark.
 
At the end of my turns, there is no way I would have thought twenty turns later, Macedonia would be breathing its last. gorm and Charis, a masterful job of generalship.

Declaring war on Cleo will be an ROP rape in reverse. In one turn her entire offensive miltary can be decimated. I'd be surprised if Egypt will still be in the game by my next set of turns.
 
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