RBC3c - Ancient Mediterranean Mayhem - Roma

Originally posted by Belisar
Good turns, we are making progress.
One thing: Do we want peace with the Celts? If our forces are concentrated
north why not taking them out? Remenber, only 90 turns left for domination.

Heh, we have peace with the Celts. I made peace on my last turn, hoping that would get Macedon to talk to us before any of their units could reach our eastern cities. I really didn't want us to have to defend on three fronts. (And I want all of Macedon's efforts to be against Persia. As I said, I don't think that front has moved much). I think there are still three turns until any Macedonian forces can attack us via roads, so we can probably get out of this war before it starts.

The other reason I made peace with the Celts is that this is the perfect opportunity to take out Carthage in Spain. If the Celts were at peace with Carthage, I would have gladly ripped up the Celtic lands. But in this case we have 1/2 of Carthage's empire fighting a one-front war against two opponents. Those Gallic Swords are going to be real useful to soak up anything that Carthage produces each turn. [Carthage never used a Heavy Cav against any of our cities in the North, even when they had the chance. They always chased the Gallics around.] So they blow all of their production on the Celts, and we get all the cities.

If/when we conquer Spain, the Celts will get caught in a vise between units coming N out of Italy and E out of Spain. So take out our blood enemy and start to reduce the size of the front.

Another subtle benefit to sweeping Spain before coming for the Celts, it will enable us to settle the rest of Spain behind the front. Settlers from other lands will have to go through our offensive lines to reach the open land.

So sorry to have tied the next two players' hands by making peace. :blush:

But I actually think this plan will work. We have to attack Spanish Carthage anyway, so now seems like the best time. The only way it would be more favorable is if we could get multiple armies to the front. But the next leader is soon to come, we have enough elites.
____________

@Speaker (or whoever is next) - The lux tax is 10% too high. Dropping to 10% only creates a couple of additional specialists, so is well worth it.

May want to consider swapping Croton to an aqueduct. After capturing the Celt city (?) corruption increased in Croton, so it is now making 9 spt, rather than 10. Allowing it to grow should get the 10th shield back. (Can't test this at size 6) I think the same thing happened at Pisae (went from 18 spt to 17 spt).

I have workers chopping the forest SE of Pisae. They should probably stop, as we don't need that tile cleared for food flexibility.
 
Originally posted by T_McC

So sorry to have tied the next two players' hands by making peace.

Playing styles differ and concentrating on Hanni is certainly no mistake.
My own considerations were: In this scenario, multiple declarations of war and multiple MAs seem to happen that often that a peace treaty is by no means an insurance policy on a certain front.
Because of this, we will have to guard our northern front with enough troops to be prepeared against sneak attacks from the Celts and other civs and (this is only a maybe) we might as well use this troops to take them out.
Of course you need less troops for a (possible) defensive was than for offensice actions, so your decisions are well considered too.

btw, I'm glad there are no knights in this scenario, just had to drop temporarly from LOTR11 because of version problems.
 
Hey Belisar,

Why don't you try loading Arathorn's recently posted save to see if that will work for you?

JMB
 
Originally posted by Greebley
TMcC,

I sent you a private message. Not sure if you check for them (I tend not to myself).

(appologies for the temporary thread-jack)

Heh, my fans. :blush:

@Belisar Check this Thread

It is a solution to the "knightdeath.wav" error.

Long story short, it seems you need to have installed the Civ3 1.29f patch for Conquests to install properly.
 
Now for something on-topic ... :jump:

A couple of more thoughts for the next player:

I screwed up the MM of Ancona. It grew, and 17 spt is kind of awkward.

Carthage is in a Republic. So hopefully they're blowing through their cash quickly. I think that last spurt of Heavy Cavs on my turn was rushed after the gov't change.

We have an 18 hp Legion II army and 8 other Legion II's on the NW front. I figure once we can get 6 garrisons (2 per city) and two heavy cavs to that front, the Celts couldn't possibly accomplish anything with a sneak attack. Then the Legion forces can be turned loose on Spain. I think these are enough units to wipe out Spanish Carthage. It's a bit of a walk, but once you hit the first city they'll all fall in turn. You could even start some of the Legions walking before the replacement garrisons arrive, figuring the army can catch up later.

This is a different kind of game. Almost all of our cities are on one front or another, so I felt I had to defend everything. This made it hard to try to push forward on any single front. Also, the way the unit stats fall, it is definitely better to be on offense than defense. [Side note: I can't see any Ivory source for Carthage, so the best defensive unit they can build is a spear. Spear vs. Legion ... Ouch for them!]
 
IT- Some minor MM changes and a few building changes but overall looks pretty good. Drop luxury tax to 10% and raise science. Found Veii in intended spot in the northeast. Send force over to Vesontio in France to take out Carthaginian iron, which should halt their Heavy Cavalry building or hurt their trade rep. Oh, on second thought they have more iron in Spain, but we need to start sending troops that way anyways.

Legionary II takes out two Heavy Cavalry on defense near Vesontio and promotes. Macedon sure has a lot of galleys. Accept peace with Macedon for 110 gold and sign them to an alliace with Carthage for 45 gold. This will lock them into war awhile and make sure they won't come back against us.

145BC (1): Kill 2 spears and an Elephant with no losses at Vesontio. Whip barracks in Massilia. Army in eastern Africa slaughters spearman. Whip walls in Nora.

IT- Lose 1 heavy cavalry to counter attack. Celts and Scythia sign peace.

140BC (2): Kill two heavy cavalry and lose one legion. Lose a legion to a spear. ugh.

IT- Lose another legion to a cavalry. I'm sorry I'm playing sloppily here.

135BC (3): Kill 2 Heavy Cavalry. 18 hp army is now healed and ready to destroy Vesontio.

IT- Kill Heavy Cav with Legion near Vesontio. Elephant dies to Legion army in Nora. Elephant kills Legion near Vesontio. Athens builds the Great Library.

130BC (4): At 31spt, Roma builds a Heavy Cavalry every other turn. Unfortunately 35spt does not seem possible at size 12. Kill two spears in Vesontio and capture the city. Kill an Elephant and Cavalry and both Legions promote to elite. More and more troops flood into the west.

IT- 2 Cavalry are skewered in Carthago and 2 Cavalry die in Nora. Scythia and Celts sign an MA against Carthage. Persia demands Spices and I cave. No need to open another front, even if they can't logistically throw anything at us.

125BC (5): Drop off 4 more Legion IIs at Carthago. Get updated maps and net around 150 gold. Carthage has 2 more sources of iron that I can see, one in Spain and the other next to Cirta, the city next to Nora.

IT- 2 elephants are slaughtered at Nora. Macedon offers alliance vs. Egypt but I turn it down. Single Cavalry lands next to Caralis. Elephant walks out of Burdigala.

120BC (6): Kill 2 spears and a Cavalry in Burdigla and capture the city. Kill the Cavalry near Caralis and our Cavalry upgrades to elite.

IT- Goths and Scythia sign MA vs. Carthage and Macedon.

115BC (7): Army is now strong compared to everyone but Persia, who is average. We have 49 garrisons, 9 cavalry, 7 legion Is, and 26 legion IIs.

IT- Kill 1 Elephant and 1 Cavalry at Nora. Carthage drops off 3 Cavalry near Caralis. Egypt offers MA vs. Macedon but I decline.

110BC (8): 3 Cavalry are dispatched no problem near Caralis. Unload 2 Legion IIs and 2 Cavalry in Carthago. Kill 2 spears trying to destroy our Ivory. Kill elephant on route to Spanish Carthage. Kill a Cavalry in the Pyranees.

IT- Lose Cavalry to an elephant. Kill 3 elephants in Nora. Carthage drops off 3 Cavalry near Caralis.

105BC (9): Kill 3 cavalry near Caralis.

IT- Kill 1 elephant at Carthago and 1 at Nora.

100BC (10): Misclicked on a cavalry near Neapolis, so I apologize when it moves one tile on goto next turn. Shuffling some troops from Carthago to the less-defended Nora. They will get there next turn. No attacks this turn, mostly getting troops in position.

Conclusion- The seas are not too safe at the moment around Carthage, as they have a couple big stacks of galleys moving around. Just realized I left a hurt legion II unprotected in Spain and he will likely be attacked by a cavalry in the interturn. There are also 2 Cavalry looking to take back Vesontio, but it should hold out until reinforcements can arrive. That will leave 5 legion IIs and a legion II army. We are going to want to pop out a bunch of catapults before we get Siege Craft, to use in the assault on African Carthage. We are 4 turns away from legion IIIs. I shudder to think what we are going to do to the Celts with those. The Celts have a bunch of (crappy) troops in the west, so we may want to make sure that area is protected. I have been shuttling troops from the mainland through Messana and Marala and down to Carthago. That route seems pretty safe right now. There are a bunch of galleys running past Caralis, so I recommend leaving 3-4 offensive units on that island for protection. Western, mostly corrupt cities are building citizens to improve tile count. I have left movement on the galleys. Total unit count on my turns (I may have counted 3 extra Cavalry as killed. I got a bit confused while counting):

Killed--47
Cavalry- 21
Spear- 9
Elephant- 17

Died--5
Legion- 3
Cavalry- 2

47:5 is a 9.4:1 ratio. Not bad without catapult support. That ratio will absolutely go down, however, as we start attacking NuMe in cities on hills. Let's get some 'pults!

I don't know if we want to switch governments at all, but take a look at imperialism down the road. I would probably do it in an SP game.

Kill Carthage!
 
That means we're 50 turns in! :hammer:

I'm not sure about government swap when we're almost at the halfway point. Thoughts?

-Griselda
 
Nice progress Speaker.
With Heavy Cav and legion armies I don't think that we need pults.
Does Hanni has an additional Ivory source?
I captured the visible one during my turns at Leptis, so we will face only the few remaining NuMes he had at the beginning from the scenario.

On gov. changing: If we nix research after Legion III our income will be quiet high and we might want to rush troops, so a switch is probably necessary,
just my thoughts
 
We absolutely want to do a gov't swap, as Republic in this scenario is Oligarchy (Our current gov) with a trade bonus. No reduction in MPs, no WW. We have to build a lot of Citizens, and this will be much less painful with cash-rush than with whipping. I also agree with Belisar that Republic is the last tech we need. A minimal science run on Imperialism might be prudent, but research could essentially be off after Republic.

I am away from my Civ computer this weekend, and can't open the save, but I have to figure Carthage is on the run. In the last twenty turns Hanni has lost at least 70 troops just against us, not to mention anything he's lost in his other wars. I wouldn't be surprised if Carthage was gassed on Gris' turn. (They have to run out of money sometime, as what they're spending is getting killed each turn.) I certainly wouldn't object to waiting until Carthage is finished to change gov't.
 
(0) 100 BC - Set priorities for the round. We're 4 turns from Republic. Although Imperialism looks nice, we don't even have literature yet, so it would take a lot of time to get there. Time is something we don't have. So, I plan on revolting to republic as soon as possible. That means I won't have reinforcements to send to the front for most of my turns, so I don't plan on making major military gains.

Shipping looks to be a disaster. With enemy boats everywhere, and no safe landings, we're risking too much and taking too much time moving units around. Let's see if I can accomplish something there.

Oh, and cut off Carthage's iron, if possible.

I don't do much. I wake 2 garrisons in Sicily that can go over to Africa. I also move an empty galley to cover a full one, and swap some island cities to galley. I swap some cities around- if they can build a heavy cav in less turns than a legion 2, they build cavs. If the legion would take the same amount of turns, they build legions. Most cities are doing this, but there's a few that aren't which I swap.

BT - Kill one unit, and retreat one on defense at Vesantio. A cav kills a garrison at Lilibeo. Padua citizen - citizen. Canusium garrison - garrison. Confinium garrison - garrison (it can build garrisons in 2, but needs every-turn MM). Mediolanum citizen - citizen.

(1) 95 BC - Kill wounded cav at Carthago. Attack Lilibeo. We attack with an army and win, then attack with a Legion II, win, and the city is ours. We also kill a numidian that was left out.

Our newly produced citizens will go south to make dock cities.

Nora to worker, which is the most boneheaded move I made all round. [pimp] It won't grow in time to make the worker, but I didn't realize that in time. I finally end up using some legions to connect Nora, and lose a couple of turns of production (just 1 spt) waiting for it to grow. Ugh, sorry.

At this point, I'm still attacking stuff that comes into the Nora area, because the war elephants and heavy cavs are so much higher on offense. I eventually figure out that it's almost never worth it, because even an exposed Legion II will be killed by cavs popping out from the fog when I do this. By the end of the round, I'm letting them attack, or at least move in closer, and I'm only attacking if I have a cav that can get back to safety. Once there's barracks in the cities, we won't really care too much if they attack, as long as they can't take the city on their turn.

I think we have enough units there to take Cirta, even with anarchy coming, so that's what I set out to do. At least that would take care of one of their irons.

Whip a barracks in Veii.

BT - Celtic SOD to Gergovia. I think they're after Carthage, though. They seem to be throwing everything they have after 1 elephant. Roma cav - cav. Neapolis legion 2 - leg 2. Acona cav - cav. Veii rax - garrison.

(2) 90 BC - Our southern army gets to Cirta's iron. Antium founded to our east, by the iron. Daouble-whip Carthago temple. We don't have many more whippings left, and it was at exactly 40 shields. Fire scientists, who can't help us save money or get the republic in less than 2.

BT - The Celts finally kill their elephant. Carthago temple - garrison. Canusium garrison - cav. Genua citizen - citizen. Confinuim garrison - garrison.

(3) 85 BC - Found "Ferry Dock" on the SW Mainland. Guess what that city's job is? We pillage Carthage's iron. Maybe their other one will move, you never know. We hire just enough scientists to go to 40% and still get republic in 1. It seems like a great time to broker world maps, since we're only in 1 war, and I'd like to see the world myself. So, we net some gold doing that.

BT - Carthage pops out of the fog and destroys our ivory colony. Shoot. That hadn't even been on my radar screen down there. Carthage and Scythia make peace. There's a lot of Goths moving around, but I think they're going to Macedonia or Persia. Republic comes in, and we revolt. This causes mass rioting, but I can fix it this turn, of course.

(4) 80 BC - Five more turns left of anarchy! :ack: Our second ferry dock, Pompeii, is founded by Aleria. Egypt lacks republic. Hmm. They'll give siege engineering, literature, incense, and some change for it. All the other AI have it, so why not? The extra lux is the most helpful. I didn't build any artillery, mostly because our offense is so effective already, but at least we have options now.

(5) 75 BC - Flames are doused throughout the land, and there is much rejoicing.

(6) 70 BC - Found Ravenna out west. Kill some heavy cavs by Lilibea. Wines to Scythia for 170 gold.

BT - Scythia must not have wanted that gold. They ally with Carthage against us. So, we have their money, and I don't see a Scythian unit the whole time. Scythia declares on the Celts too, just for fun. Persia and Carthage ally vs. Goth.

Ack, Carthage lands seven heavy cav by Olbia. It could be worse, though, because those 7 cavs get off of 11 boats somehow.

(7) 65 BC - We are in trouble, and all because of lack of roads. There's plenty of units on the island with Olbia, but there's no direct road between the two cities. While I can send cavs from Caralis to kill 3, that leaves 4 attackers who will be able to attack a 2-garrison city this turn. My legions can't get into the city this turn! I send two legions, who can be there next turn, and hope for the best.

In good news, though, we capture Cirta this turn.

BT - We survive 2 cav attacks at Oblia, but the third one takes the city. Scythia and Persia ally vs. Goth. Celts and Macedonia peace. Caralis riots, since it's no longer connected with Cirta's harbor. The road to Nora was also just completed, so I use the opportunity to scroll ahead and at least let the city grow (during anarchy, it's needed a specialist while it wasn't connected).

(8) 60 BC Recapture Olbia. They magically have a spear in there already, but other than that it's just wounded cavs. Pick off some units at Lilibeo. I'm holding off on offensives waiting for anarchy to be over, but we can take out a lot of units this way.

BT - Choose republic, finally.

(9) 55 BC - Get cities into decent working order. We don't even need to run a lux tax in republic, which is nice. Pisae, Roma, and Neapolis can work on Legion III's. The others get less shields, so should probably do cavs. Garrisons in the outlying areas, of course. We pick off some Carthaginian units, and rush a few galleys and temples.

BT - Syracuse galley - garrison. Caralis galley - garrison. Aleria market - garrison. Tarentum cav - cav. Messana galley - garrison. Burdigala temple - walls. Nora worker (finally!) - rax. Vesantio walls - rax. Segusio temple - garrison. Silk City rax - temple.

(10) 50 BC - Carthage had landed one cav at Caralis, which was easy enough to kill.

We have 596 gold in the bank, and are making 85 per turn. The next leader might consider a Legion III upgrade. Also, barracks in places like Nora and Cirta would be most helpful. We could pick off a lot more units if we could heal faster there, and we are taking some damage from letting them attack.

There's a lot of wide open space, especially to our west, that could be settled fairly easily. That's one reason that I'm building so many garrisons. The Celts are marching all their units back and forth over there, so I don't want to skimp on defenses as we expand southwards. Another priority may be to help secure the islands a bit more.

Shipping. We still don't have quite enough boats to implement my plan, but hopefully I can describe it. The northern islands are accessible via the Pisae/Pompeii route. There's a galley in Pisae, once we get one in Pompeii too we can have one-turn shipping in and out. Aleria and Olbia form the shipping route for the next island south. We want flexibility on our islands depending on where they land, and if we have good shipping that will help. There's two galleys on the way to Aleria and Olbia.

There's not any point in running a shipping route south from Caralis, but we could go west from there if someone wants to settle those islands. I don't know if it would save much time, but it would gain those island tiles for Roma.

Sicily is accessible with a route between Messana and Ferry Dock. There's already a galley in place there. Marsalo and Carthago is our only 4-tile shipping lane. So, ideally it would need four galleys to ship 3 units safely, because they would need to be left out one turn. Right now, there's two galleys, and one more on the way. Once the four are in place, we can ship units to Africa every single turn, and spend only one turn in the water.

If you want to spend the time to MM Confinium every turn, it can average over 10 spt and build a garrison every 2.

That's about it. The next time it comes to me, we'll be 100 turns in! If it comes back to me, of course, but it's looking like we'll need all the time we can get.

50 BC

Griselda - just played
6thGenTexan - UP NOW
Belisar - on deck
Speaker - below deck
T_McC - :sleep:
 
Originally posted by Griselda

Ack, Carthage lands seven heavy cav by Olbia. It could be worse, though, because those 7 cavs get off of 11 boats somehow.
I expected something like that sooner or later.
On my turn, they landed half the units and I was barely able to fend them off.
Since we can't afford huge garrisons in all island towns, beeing flexible with moving units (like you mentioned) is certainly the right strategy.
On the plus side, our upgraded legion III, when fortified behind walls, should be very tough on defense.
And speaker is right too, once we have their iron they are toast.
This brings up an interesting point, our next victim. Taking out the Celts could be the priority, who is next?
We could focus on the weaker civs or we could 'help' the Persians against Alex.

Thoughts?
 
Originally posted by Belisar
This brings up an interesting point, our next victim. Taking out the Celts could be the priority, who is next?
We could focus on the weaker civs or we could 'help' the Persians against Alex.

Thoughts? [/B]

I'd like to see what percentage of territory and population we're at once we settle Spain and Africa. There's already a whole lot of land to grab out there, even with Carthage alive.

In the mean time, of course, the AI may make our choices for us.

-Griselda
 
I would agree that the Celts are the next target, but after looking at the save, I don't think we will be attacking Macedon anytime. Seeing as how they have maybe 20 turns to live. Persia is rolling over them.

@Gris - Is the starvation at Olbia intentional? Right now the citizens are all tax collectors.

@All - Do we know if cultural flips are even possible in this game? I ask because our further Spanish conquests are pseudo-first ring to the new Carthage capital.
 
Well, in the intro screen for the scenario, it says that it allows cultural conversions. I don't know what our flip risk is somewhere like Olbia, but I figured it couldn't hurt since we'd just re-captured it. The one nice thing about this scenario is that captured cities do keep their culture.

While there's not a lot of time left, I do think that starving cities is probably a good bet as we get closer in. For the islands, I think either way is probably fine.

-Griselda
 
Alright, preventative starvation seems prudent. I doubt we would need to do the same with the Celt cities, as we should have a much higher overall culture than they do.

Has anyone heard from 6thGen? He seems to be missing from some other SG's as well.
 
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