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RBC3d Mediterranean Madness: Macedonia

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Succession Games' started by Arathorn, Nov 30, 2003.

  1. Arathorn

    Arathorn Catan player

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    This game is one of four running on the Rise of Rome Conquest,
    seeking to experience each of the four playable civs and to
    compare their different situations.

    Scenario: Rise of Rome Civ: Persians
    Difficulty: Deity Goal: Domination Victory before 130 turns

    Roster:
    Arathorn*
    Ridgelake
    Coffee
    T-Hawk
    Justus II
    Grimjack (alternate/spare player)

    We'll just go in the order Sullla posted, unless someone has a problem with it.

    Arathorn
     
  2. Arathorn

    Arathorn Catan player

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    Macedonia. I wonder what our strength is. Everybody else has some nice options.

    Persia has the most land and the best early offensive unit (4/2/1 immortals) to complement a good defense (2/3/1 numidian merc available to everybody). Rome has all kinds of benefits -- garrisons, legions galore, citizens. Carthage has a corner start and only one foe to complement their war elephants.

    I know we get a 3/3/1, but that's hardly a match for a paired 4/2/1 and 2/3/1. What's in it for Macedonia?



    We have fairly OK opening lands. Our starting army is 1 settler, 11 workers, 3 archers, 6 horsemen, 5 galleys, 1 army, and 23 hoplites. That's a strong military compared to Persia -- that must be our edge -- a starting strong military. That means we're gonna have to hit hard and fast. In fact, we're strong compared to everyone but Rome. Of course, a support cost of 20 gpt isn't going to help matters at all.

    Persia has the most land and the most people to start the game. The longer a stalemate is developed, the better things are for them. As I look around, I'm very convinced we're going to need to hit them hard and fast.

    Sign Egypt to Alliance vs. Carthage for their worker and 80 of their gold. What a bargain! Anything to distract Hanni for a bit.
    Odd. Rome will pay a worker and 317 gold for the privelege of fighting the Persians, but asking for worker and 318 gold is simply insulting. Oh well. I do NOT want a two-front war, so we sign them up as well.

    UNITS:
    Numidian Merc - 30 shields - 2/3/1
    Hoplite - 40 shields - 3/3/1 -- EXTREMELY LAME UU alert -- 33% more expensive and only a bit better on offense? UGH!
    Swordsman - 30 shields - 3/2/1 -- a better buy for us, actually
    Horseman - 30 shields - 2/1/2 -- just like "regular"
    Archer - 20 shields - 2/1/1 -- normal

    The unit we'll ultimately want is Heavy Cavalry - 60 shields - 5/2/2.

    City management -- they're poorly set up, believe me.

    Miletus will be a good worker factory for us. Granted, it's near the front, but we'll need workers there, too. It can get 5 fpt now and should be able to get into a worker every other turn pattern in 15-20 turns. Maronea, too, is designated worker factory.

    Lux is turned up to 10% to get everybody to work. Science set on Monarchy, but nobody/nothing is working on it.

    Homeland troops shuffle a bit and aim to explore and to defend our meager cities. MUCH WORKER ACTION IS REQUIRED all over the map.

    Contact Scythians immediately with an exploring hoplite. Trade them Masonry + Alphabet for worker, 50 gold, and their world map.

    Think to check with Carthage before the turn ends. They'll pay worker, 70 gold, and WM for the privelege of allying with us, too. Is this a scenario design problem? A result of our strong army? Or something else entirely? I take the deal, though.

    We're industrious, commercial, and seafaring. The last of these does us almost no good at all, as the map is very much already revealed and I don't plan many/any amphibious landings. But industrious and commercial will be very nice.

    Our government is an Oligarchy, which is pretty good. If/when we get Imperialism, it'll probably be worth switching, but otherwise we look good to go. Republic is nicer, but it's probably not worth an anarchy to change into.

    And, after only 45 minutes, I think I may be done with my zeroth turn.

    (I) Persia sends on immortal out towards us. I tremble in fear, NOT!

    (1) 345- Move on two Persian cities. We want to hit hard and fast. I also have a couple galleys heading towards them, hopefully they will serve as a bit of a distraction.

    The one thing we don't have and could really use is a settler factory. I have no idea where to start one of those, however.

    (I) Persia sends out an immortal against a hoplite and...



    (2) 340 - Re-MM cities for GA production.

    Army wins twice and we capture Iconium and a slave. Iconium's been whipped heavily, so it gets a scientist to start a run on Monarchy. And for some odd reason, we have 104 culture in Iconium. Bug? A horse dies attacking an immortal in the open and Persia's GAing, too.

    (I) Defend successfully vs. immortal. Athens starts Heroic Epic. We're going to want as many armies as possible.

    (3) 335 - Move on cities -- lose a horse.

    (4) 330 - Trade galleys with Persia -- losing 6 hps to their 3. Oh well. (NOTE: galleys are 1/1/3 in this scenario)

    Capture Ancyra -- barely. Finally hoplite had one hp left when I won. That was close.

    In Ancyra's cultural borders, we spot 3 Persians archers and 2 horsemen. Sigh. So much for my blitzkrieg advance. Looks like a bit of sitzkrieg now, while I try to heal and absorb counter-attacks.

    But I do kill an immortal and two archers down by Iconium.

    (5) 325 - Killing Persians. Healing. Some swords are starting to complete and are moving towards the front. Horses will be connected before too long. One archer is out exploring, but more would be nice.

    Make a bunch of cash selling world maps. Nobody else seems to be exploring at all. Cash does us little good at this point, but I imagine it will help greatly to keep up in techs, once the AI decides to learn something.

    (I) Volcano by Messana is now active, whatever that means. I hope it means Crete becomes valueless for both Carthage and Rome, but I don't think it does.

    (6) 320 - Writing to Scythia for WM and 32 gold. He likes his WM and he's expansionist, so maybe I can get good trade for it. Plus, I don't care if the barbs tech some.

    Contact w/Scythia to Rome for contact with Celts.
    IW + WM to Celts for WM + 60 gold. IW gives them their UU but they should trouble Rome/Carthage with it a lot more than us!
    Sell WM a bunch more times for a bunch more gold. End with 1450 gold and 99 gpt income.

    (7) 315 - Sink Persian galley without losing any.

    Lose one horse killing 3 archers and an immortal. Start moving on another Persian city.

    Carthage now has the world's largest population, taking that title from the falling Persians.

    (I) Persia and Egypt sign peace. Then Cleopatra comes offering TM for TM. I accept and then pay her 190 gold to go back to war with Persia! :lol:

    Volcano erupts and destroys Roman city of Messana. Carthiginian cities of Syracuse and Marsala appear to be unaffected.

    (8) 310 - Little happens. I kill an immortal and an archer. Persia's targetting is shifting. We should be ready to move again in the north soon and the south is already moving.

    (I) Rome and Persia sign peace.

    (9) 305 - Thebes can do a horseman every other turn, but it needs MM to grow. Put a citizen on the fish for one turn and then on the forest the next. This will give it slow growth and still make 30 shields every two turns.

    (10) 300 - I go ahead and capture Antioch. Our culture is still very similar to Persia's and it'll be a nice forward base. Our army is outside the city, but it's still healthy enough that we should be fine. I hope I don't put the next leader in an awkward position....

    Resisters, but we have 120 culture there, so no forces can reach the lone sword defending it. Granary, market, courthouse, harbor survived....too bad the barracks didn't.

    (I) Pull a Charis and gotta make sure I don't lose the army. Get a Pyhhric victory in the north (elite hoplite offs attacking immortal, giving Pyrrhus!!! IN DEFENSE!)

    (11) 295 - Move the army into Antioch and cross my fingers. No fewer than 10 immortals can attack it this turn, with another 8 or so available the turn after. Antioch is on a hill, though, so....

    (I) Kill them all but am red-lined. I wonder how many hp the army will recover. There are lots of immortals still nearby. But with Pyrrhus around to replace the army if necessary, I think I will pass off now.

    Scythia allies with Rome against Carthage.

    (12) 290 - Army recovered zero hps? While fortified in a city? I guess I did move it in last turn. I don't see any way it survives the next interturn. Sorry guys. I would use the sword in Antioch to attack out once, against the stack to the north. And hope.

    I guess +1/-1 army isn't TOO bad, though. And we should be good to go in the north.

    I'm not entirely convinced Persia will be around by my next turn.

    http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/rbc3d-290bc.zip

    Arathorn
     
  3. Arathorn

    Arathorn Catan player

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    Suggestions for Ridgelake:
    - Diplomacy -- I slacked my last few turns
    - Sorry about the army in the south. Maybe concentrate on the north for a bit
    - Watch happiness carefully. Our towns/cities are growing rapidly and we might need more lux tax very soon. I'm trying to connect gems in the south...and silks in the north aren't too far away (colony, maybe?)
    - I'd found our next city where the settler is standing.

    Sorry for going over, but I stopped before going too long. I think if I'd've watched the army die, I'd've just kept playing for another 50 turns.

    Arathorn
     
  4. Justus II

    Justus II General Staff

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    Arathorn,

    I downloaded the .zip file, but it's empty, no .sav file in it. Can you repost it? Also, sounds like a very fast start, even if we do lose the initial army. BTW, any chance it can move to safety (remember the movement bonus so it moves 2?). Not sure of the positions of the enemy. Might be worth saving the army if we will lose the city anyway. The second army should probably be hoplites also, or maybe 2 hoplites and a sword, cavalry is too far off.

    As for the culture, that's a scenario setting IIRC, captured cities keep their existing culture. Not sure how that affects the chance for culture flips, does that count as our local culture, or theirs?
     
  5. Charis

    Charis Realms Beyond

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    Woo, the Macedonians have started! :hammer:

    Thanks for sharing your starting analysis, btw, that was a good read in itself. The rest had a few chuckles...

    > Pull a Charis and gotta make sure I don't lose the army.

    :rotfl:

    So... what do we call it if indeed the army DOES fall on the handoff turn?! :p The suspense is thick in the air...

    > Get a Pyhhric victory in the north (elite hoplite offs attacking
    > immortal, giving Pyrrhus!!! IN DEFENSE!)
    Wow, talk about ironic!

    And not that I deny your conclusion, as viewed from the Macedonian point of view, but on our side it was "omg, no, not another hoplite?!?" Before the numes appear, those guys are nasty, coming and going! (Didn't realize it was 40shields though, ouch) I'll stop short of making any tactical comments here, but two general knowledge things to know:

    - In this scenario if you capture a city it keeps its culture value, meaning the borders around it are now quite substantial, in favor of the attacker. That's a feature, not a bug
    - If you don't move an army at all, I think it heals 50%, or 75% if rax in town. That's a big change from PtW and the utility of the army.

    Good luck, 'd'
    Charis
     
  6. Louis XXIV

    Louis XXIV Le Roi Soleil

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    I'll be interested in watching this one, as with the others.
     
  7. T-hawk

    T-hawk Transcend

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    I need to beg off for this one... I haven't yet gotten Conquests (although I could remedy that anytime, I'm not really interested with the current bug set), and at any rate I'm going to be short on time and availability through probably around New Year's. Good luck with it though, and I'll be following along.
     
  8. Grimjack

    Grimjack Bounty Hunter

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    I have not checked the save, but if there is any chance of saving the army, then do it. Armies are the main weapon we will have against the hordes of Persia.

    Grimjack
     
  9. Arathorn

    Arathorn Catan player

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    I have no problems with the .zip. It appears to have a .save file in it just fine. Can someone else verify this?

    About the army -- thinking of it a bit more. I'd hoped that the AI wouldn't attack a nearly-healed (13/14 hps) army in a city on a hill. Apparently they will. Killing 9 immortals (one didn't attack for some odd reason) isn't a REAL bad use of the army.

    It's possible the AI won't attack it if we move it pretty much straight east and abandon the city. Without the additional incentive of a city, I'm not sure if the AI will attack and try to finish it off or not. I'm also not sure exactly where all the foes are, but I do remember our main line of retreat is cut off by about 7 immortals.

    Roster:
    Arathorn* -- JUST PLAYED
    Ridgelake -- UP NOW -- DUE for "GOT IT"
    Coffee -- ON DECK
    Justus II
    Grimjack

    Arathorn
     
  10. Grimjack

    Grimjack Bounty Hunter

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    I have a sav in the zip :)

    Tommy
     
  11. Coffee

    Coffee Cdn Expat

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    If Ridgelake doesn't post I can take it tonight? We could swap.

    I agree with Grimjack. I looked at the save and had the same idea as Arathorn. Just not sure that an escape route exists.

    Also I would like to start a prebuild in Sparta for the Great Library.

    Workers and corruption remain the top problems. Suggest revolting to Republic and not waiting for Imperialism.
     
  12. Justus II

    Justus II General Staff

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    Well, I'm not sure what the problem was originally with the .zip, but I downloaded it at work, and the .sav is there. I will take a look at lunch!
     
  13. Arathorn

    Arathorn Catan player

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    Ridgelake was supposed to be back today (I just reread some of his old posts), but I don't care about order. I was just going with what Sullla had posted. Swaps (if we switch, since this is the first round, we'll just make it permanent) are fine by me. Just make things ULTRA-CLEAR if doing that.

    As for a GL pre-build, I think the current cascade will eat up that wonder...and let it. After Persia's gone, we'll need to fight one more foe, probably, and acquiring the library by force sounds like a good plan to me. And I'm not really sure we'll need it. 2fers should be fairly easy and with all the wars, there's not much trading except what we'll be doing! :)

    Arathorn
     
  14. Coffee

    Coffee Cdn Expat

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    I'm ok with that. Will wait and stay with the posted order. Good luck to Ridgelake.
     
  15. Grimjack

    Grimjack Bounty Hunter

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    I would suggest a long and hard look at Temple of Artemis. Getting free culture in all cities would be a godsend when we run for domination.
    While we do have lots of free culture in the captured cities, I am not at all certain we would get it should we try our hand at building new cities, taking cities from the barbs.

    Grimjack
     
  16. Arathorn

    Arathorn Catan player

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    Temple of Artemis? When other civs have 60% cost factor and a 10-turn head start? Ummm... I don't think so.

    As I understand the scenario, culture stays in the city when captured, so if we capture a barbarian city with culture, it will keep that culture. New cities will have no culture. And we will want a few cities, but the hard part of this scenario will have to be 50% of the population. We will have close to 20% of the land simply by wiping out Persia, but 50% of the pop will require significant portions of at least two other civilizations. We're at ~31% population now, as I recall (don't trust that number too much -- I've played a solo game since then and sometimes those numbers don't stick the greatest). I really pushed growth in most of our cities.

    I, personally, have little doubt that 20% of the land will come long before 50% of the population, and that we will be forced into acquiring more land :hammer: simply to get the population. Capturing largish cities is the best way to increase population percentage, because it not only increases your own pop, but it decreases that of the rest of the world.

    And ask yourself this -- would you rather have temple of artemis with the 12-25 free temples it would provide or another 13 swordsmen? I want the units -- with those, I can get the land the temples would provide anyway!

    My $.02,
    Arathorn
     
  17. Justus II

    Justus II General Staff

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    For this scenario, I agree with Arathorn, the Temple of Artemis is not as much of a priority as a normal game. The biggest difference is the fact that newly captured cities keep their culture in this scenario. Getting the temples and culture in new cities was always the biggest selling point on Artemis for me. I would rather go for the units. I'll also go along with his comments re: the Great Library, we should be able to trade for the techs we need. Since Rome and Carthage can never talk, there should be more 2-1 opportunities than usual, and we can broker some of them. About the only wonder I would make a priority at this point is Heroic Epic, to generate more leaders for more armies.
     
  18. Coffee

    Coffee Cdn Expat

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    The Epic shoud complete in 3 turns IIRC.
     
  19. Ridgelake

    Ridgelake Chieftain

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    I am back in town. My head is in a very different place right now. I have some plans for tomorrow night. So if Coffee wants to swap permanently in the order, that is fine.
     
  20. Coffee

    Coffee Cdn Expat

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    I got it.
     

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