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RBD SG6 - The Benevolent King

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Succession Games' started by Sirian, Jan 26, 2002.

  1. Sirian

    Sirian Civ Map Programmer

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2001
    Messages:
    3,651
    Location:
    Pennsylvania, USA
    Another Variant experience, brought to you by the RBD Gang.

    Difficulty: Monarch
    Civ: Mayans (Religious, Militaristic)
    Map Size: Large
    Opponents: 11 (random)
    Climate: Random
    Mountains: Random
    Landmass: Random
    Landform: Random
    Barbarians: Random
    Culturally Linked Start
    All Victory Conditions enabled

    Standard RBD Rules:
    * 10 turns per player
    * No Reload
    * No Autosave (save occasionally, back up to last save if crash).

    Variant Restrictions:
    * No use of Forced Labor. (The Benevolent One does not whip).
    * Monarchy government only. (Despotism until it comes available).
    * Customized City Names required -- do not use the suggested (Aztec) city names. Please no jokey or tounge-in-cheek names, either. If you can't think of something good, name it after an event in your reign, or the local terrain.

    No access to the high-commerce governments (republic, democracy) will make taking/keeping a tech lead difficult, if not impossible. Yet no whipping also means no production loophole to exploit, and not knowing what kind of map we will get will mean having to decide strategy on the fly. On the up side, no war weariness, martial law on hand to make content faces, and as cities grow (especially after sanitation), some military won't need paid.

    Position Available! Benevolent Kings wanted!
    :king: :egypt: :queen: :viking: :king:
    Apply now! Limited time offer!


    - Sirian
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Carbon_Copy

    Carbon_Copy Elemental

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2001
    Messages:
    623
    Location:
    Indiana, USA
    Before something else begins. I shall have to pass. Maybe I will pick up when 7 begins if 4 meets an early demise (it seems the most likely to end of the current RBD games, one way or another).

    But good luck, that's definitely a challenge game.

    (edit):

    Just a moment to hijack this thread before it become cluttered with "on topic posts". Subject: naming conventions for save games. It would be nice if we could all agree on a common convention for naming the saves so it becomes easier to sort out, and yes, the default save name DOES suck (like I'm going to know which of my 35 "Joan d'Arc of the French..." saves is the most recent one, or even which one corresponds to which game). I typically use folders to sort the succession games anyhow, but the file system utilities built into the game make this a hassle. I suggest the form:

    <Acronym/Name> <#> <Date> <AD/BC>

    as in:

    RBD 6 1500 AD
    LK 3 2500 BC
    Infantry 1 250 AD


    I know most of us (including me) do put the civ name in the game save somewhere, but this is mostly redundant. There is (should be) only one game with the identifier "RBD 4" or "EX 2", etc., and it's not as if you can change the civ you are playing as in the middle of the game. Leaving it out also removes any ambiguities as whether the civ name is "French" or "France", for example. If we do adopt such a convention, then anyone downloading the saves should be able to do an alphabetical sort of the save folder in windows and see right away which save file is the most recent for any given game following this convention. The number of the game would also be compulsory even for the first game of a particular name, so that saves from the original wouldn't become interspersed with saves from subsequent games with the same identifier.

    While I am submitting this specifically to the RBD players, it would be nice to hear feedback from the other succession players in this matter.
     
  3. OneInTen

    OneInTen Darkness bound

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2001
    Messages:
    164
    Location:
    brisbane.qld.au
    I'd like to give it a shot, I think such a game is winnable with a tech brokering strategy, but it would be interesting to find out. What worries me is the starting position, I have having a mass of jungle near my start position, and usually restart immediately if I can see any jungle where my settler is placed on the map. Death to this useless terrain type I say. ;)

    Anyway, put me down for this one. :)
     
  4. smegged

    smegged Psi Cop

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2002
    Messages:
    413
    Location:
    Brisbane, Queensland
  5. Zed-F

    Zed-F Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2001
    Messages:
    1,776
    I'm in the same boat as CC; RBD4, RBD5, and Inf are enough to keep me busy for now. I could join in here or another RBD game after one of those wraps up. Perhaps another time? :)
     
  6. Schnarrd

    Schnarrd Panderer of Bad Jokes

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2001
    Messages:
    169
    Location:
    Cleveland, OH
    Anyway, if it weren't for the forums being down, I would have signed up for this one a while ago. If you've still got room, count me in! One succession game is not enough. :D
     
  7. Charis

    Charis Realms Beyond

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2001
    Messages:
    1,837
    Location:
    Midwest, USA
    Sounds neat, sign me up :hammer:

    You've seen my comments in the rbd forum, but I'll try to stick
    with your intentions as close as I can. To those tied up with other games atm, heck, np, there'll be more to get in on!!

    Charis
     
  8. Iester

    Iester Entirely Without Humour

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2002
    Messages:
    259
    (Jester was taken; I was doing a lot of latin studying this weekend...)

    I'd love to get in on this game, now that the forums actually _work_. I'd say the challenge looks crippling, but I just played much the same kind of game, albeit on a smaller map, and monarchy actually works pretty well, even later on. No whipping... well, I've always been loath to do that anyway. We can kiss a tech advantage goodbye, but that just means the warpath is just going to be all the more tempting.

    Of course, this being my first succession game, I'll need to know how this all works. (like getting the games from one to the next... email?) I've been following the games, mostly, but I'm still in the dark as to the nuts and bolts.

    But sign me up; I've been missing all the action so far. Time to jump in!

    Jester :nya:
     
  9. Sirian

    Sirian Civ Map Programmer

    Joined:
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    3,651
    Location:
    Pennsylvania, USA
    That's five (Sirian, OneInTen, Schnarrd, Charis, Jester). Admissions are now closed.

    With nothing else to do (the forum being down awhile) I have played the start for this game. We have a very interesting choice to make, which either way, will require strategic cohesion from the team, so I will present my report and my thoughts, and ask the participants to weigh in on what direction to take the game. I think we should vote and come to a consensus, then commit as a team to whichever course has majority support. Sound good?

    4000BC: I examine our starting location. My first instinct is move a square to the right, to get access to the coast (coastal wonders, harbor, shipbuilding). However, that's a dry location, so before I commit us, I right click on the other squares. Lo! The jungle above us offers one unit of trade! IT'S ON A RIVER! North we go, as fresh water is too valuable to pass up.

    3950BC: The Mayan capital, Xenalia, is founded on a river in the jungle. Our people suffer an incredibly high rate of disease (55%!) but spices are spotted to the north, 2 of them in range of Xenalia. We have two grassland with shield in range, some hills and food grasslands, and LOTS of jungle. Lots and lots. Thick, sweltering, damp jungle. We're going to have to put some priority on clearing it or we will repeatedly suffer plagues. There are no food boosting squares (wheat, cattle, flood plain) in range, so we are going to have a slow start. I set to researching Mysticism at min science, and training a Jaguar Warrior.

    3750BC: Our warriors grow to sufficient numbers to be able to take action. They set out to explore southward while a temple is constructed.

    3500BC: Our warriors heading south have crossed a desert and found another river. There is a goodly bit of land to the south.

    3450BC: Our borders expand due to high culture! Our capital grows to size 2. A minor tribe is located deep in the jungle to our northeast, across the river. We should send emissaries.

    3300BC: The Temple in Xenalia is completed! We are surely the first civilization on the planet to complete such a great project! With production at 5 shields per turn, I decide to train three more Jaguar Warriors before building our first settler. I know this will only further delay our second city, but it should not at all delay our third, and I believe (based on how far we've already explored without contacting any other civs) that further scouting would be to our benefit. Additional goody huts, or contacting civs before they find one another (making us the middle man, at least for a while) would gain us more than we lose on six turns of production at the second city. At the very least, I will have a look around and figure out where best to send the settler, rather than sending them out blindly into the dark.

    3200BC: Our first warriors have turned west, following the southern coast. A lovely inland lake has been spotted, and the Benevolent sets his sights on founding a Mayan city there. Our second warrior party is completed and sent to make contact with the minor tribe near Xenalia.

    3100BC: Our third warrior party is trained and sent south into the interior lands. Our first warriors are circling clockwise around the outer coast, now heading north.

    3050BC: The minor tribe teaches us Pottery!

    3000BC: Our fourth warrior party heads northwest. Xenalia finally set to train settlers.

    2950BC: Our third warrior contacts a minor tribe, who agree to join our rich culture to serve us as warriors. They are poorly trained but highly devoted, and are sent to defend Xenalia. Our first warrior encounters hostiles in the west, and fortifies in the mountains. Xenalia grows to size 3! Sadly, there are no more mined grasslands, so shield output remains at 5 per. Settlers due in five more turns.

    2900BC: Hostiles attack and are beaten back. More hostiles approach, so our party continues to camp.

    2850BC: Our first warriors defend a second time. They still did not promote to veteran, arrgh. Rather than head west into another thick jungle, where there are silks, toward the source of these barbarians, we choose to head north, into a fertile valley. Another minor tribe spotted! Our third goody hut, to be.

    2800BC: Our second warrior has reached the end of the peninsula to our east. It is smallish, and entirely choked with jungles. Entirely. Our first warrior recruits the minor tribe in the far west to serve us as conscripts. We are now running a serious budgetary deficit, with so many troops to pay for (4 jags, 2 conscripts, 1 worker, at 3 gold per turn), and desperately need to found another city soon, lest we go broke. We have been running 1 science per turn all along, though, so our treasury is up near 50 gold now and we will be OK, but times will be tough for a little longer.

    2710BC: Settlers produced. They follow the road out of Xenalia as far it will take them, then turn southeast, toward a forest in the midst of grassy plains, where there are cattle. Our second warrior in the south has found gems in the mountain above Crystal Lake, at the origin of that second river. Xenalia begins construction of a barracks.

    2630BC: Our western conscripts make contact with our fourth minor tribe and another conscript force is recruited! One will be sent south toward the silks, the other to continue north in tandem with the jags. Costs now running at 5 gold per turn (temple, 5 units over our limit), with income at 2 per turn. Losing 4 per turn! Hurry settlers, hurry!

    2550BC: The great Mayan city of Riggoro is founded in a rich valley and begins to produce settlers. I know this will waste two turns of production (six shields), in the long run, but the Benevolent has his eyes set on Crystal Lake, and our capital can soon churn veteran units, which is deemed better. Our budget breathes a huge sigh of relief as Riggoro is able to provide support to some of our warrior parties in the west without expending our treasury.

    2510BC: two more goody huts are spotted by our first and third Jaguar warrior parties, one in the far west, one within five squares of Riggoro.

    2470BC: BOTH minor villages declare war on us and attack! In the desert west of Riggoro, our warriors defend valiantly against three units and are promoted to Elite!!! They have suffered two wounds and must now rest awhile. In the far west, our jaguar warriors are badly wounded by the first of three enemy units and are forced to retreat! The second unit attacks them, and they are too winded to get away, but they make a stand and somehow survive the onslaught, promoting to veteran! The third enemy unit then attacks, and wounds our party down into the red yet again, then perishes! What a heroic engagement!

    2430BC: Our second warriors, who have turned north, and who found that the jungle extended only a little farther, but that there was a huge deciduous forest beyond the wet jungles, have finally reached the other end of the endless vegetation and discovered... barren desert. Endless sand dunes as far north as the eye can see. We appear to be entirely alone in this world. Our first warrior party must retreat to heal, so I run them past the remaining unit of angry locals, running north now along a river over there.

    2350BC: Our badly wounded forces in the west reach the mountains at the origin of that river, discover another sourch of rich gems, and make camp to recover. Barracks completed. More jags to be trained. (I'll pump another settler as soon as I can, but the city is many turns away from size 3 yet). Thirty turns have passed.

    2310BC: Our second warrior, returning south and exploring the far side of the great forest, run into another minor tribe, which declares war! Our jags defend, are promoted to veteran, then are wounded and retreat.

    2270BC: Our newly trained veteran jags provide cover for the wounded group, attack and are promoted to elite! Xenalia starts on settlers. Our third warrior spots yet another goody hut right in our near vicinity. This one is the last, at least in this region.

    2230BC: We are attacked again! The minor tribe declares war and, losing one unit, then chases off our elite forces. We have to do a bit of shuffle and dance to protect our wounded units.

    2190BC: Barbarians eliminated. And it occurs to me to observe that in all this time, the only "random" barbarians I have found have been those two in the west, encountered early by our first group of warriors. No camps anywhere. I now believe our random barbarian setting rolled up "Sedentary" and those early attackers had to be the remnants of a hut one of the AI's poked into, perhaps killing off the AI warrior or scout and then wandering into our party. It seems almost a shame we haven't had any chances to pick up 25 gold from camps, with so many units running around. Ah well.

    2150BC: Forty turns have passed. Our three jags in the east are sent north to explore. One is fortified at Riggoro (he'd been sent there to heal). Our party in the northwest appears to have found the end of that land. Our first jags are told to begin the long journey home, intending to fortify them at our soon-to-be settlement at Crystal Lake, while the conscripts continue northwest to clean up the last bits of darkness in the area.

    2110BC: We discover Mysticism! Start on Polytheism. Our southbound conscript in the west, beyond the silks, has met with a French settler/warrior pair. We trade them Mysticism for Masonry and most of their treasury. They also have Bronze, Wheel, and Alphabet, but we say no to further deals.

    2070BC: French found Lyons right in front of us. Our conscripts leave their territory and explore southward. Xenalia produces settlers, starts on Granary.

    1990BC: Riggoro produces settlers. They head south toward the lake. Riggoro starts on temple.

    1950BC: El Dorado founded at origin of river to the north, on the edge of the jungle, where the forest begins. Starts on temple.

    1910BC: Jags in the north spot green borders. It's the Persians. Another northern jag spots a goody hut. Out pops three units of warriors and we are attacked. Unit defends, but is forced to retreat. Second unit mops up.

    1870BC: Trade Mysticism and 3 gold to the Persians for Bronze Working.

    1830BC: That "last bit of land" in the northwest appears now to be a strait leading to another large land area, as we encounter a veteran Indian warrior. We trade India Mysticism for Wheel, Alphabet, and most of their treasury.

    1790BC: We find yet another goody hut in the northern desert, just before a Persian warrior could get there, and the minor tribe teaches us Horseback Riding! I change Xenalia over to Pyramids, then discover the Persians are already building them! Did I miss the notice, or did they start way back before I even met them?

    1750BC: Crystal Lake founded, starts temple. Elite jag from north returns to guard El Dorado. Our conscripts in the far southwest, below French lands, reach the southern shore. Our elite jags in the north have explored most of the edge of Persian lands. Fifty turns have passed, and our Mayan civilization's Founding Era has come to an end.

    Now it is time for the High Council to meet, to set the path of our future and choose the course of our destiny. I will detail our dilemma, and the options I see, in the next post.


    - Sirian
     
  10. Sirian

    Sirian Civ Map Programmer

    Joined:
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    Our situation looks quite promising. There is a thick jungle stretching coast to coast at the equatorial latitude, where Xenalia is located. Above that, a thick forest, and beyond both of these in each direction, a VAST desert.

    North of the northern desert lie Persians lands. South of the southern desert is a wide open plain, mostly dry but with fresh water in the area, plenty of horses roaming, and beyond, to the far south, ocean.

    To our west is a large sea or small ocean, beyond which lies another fertile valley, which is closer to France than to us, but not by very much. I foresee this region as a good location for a forbidden Palace and many more cities, but that may be a long long time away.

    We have four spices between Xenalia and El Dorado. There is one gem in range of Crystal Lake. There is a horse in range of Rigorro, two more to the south, two silks near the French border, and one more gem in the western valley.

    Of eleven opponents, we have found only three and are on par in score with each of them, despite our low-food start. We are clearly on a hot world with flat lands (5 billion, almost no hills or mountains, most of what is there being the origin points for rivers). We may also be on a dry world, which may explain the slow start of the AI's, if their lands need irrigation for them to grow much. Of the other eight civs, I have seen Zulu and Japan capitals on the top5 city list. The English were reported as the largest civ by the Top 8 report. (Wonder if they got a settler from a goody hut?)


    Now here's the situation. The Persians are to our north, but they do not yet have iron working. They started the Pyramids early (and often get them, being Industrious and starting with the tech). If we are to have any chance at building the Pyramids ourselves, we would HAVE to march up there and put a stop to their project, either by taking their capital or at least forcing them to swap off the Pyramids to defend it.

    If we are ever to attack the Persians, NOW is the time, to do so as soon as possible, before they get stacks of Immortals going. If we can send ten vet jags and take over their capital, we may get a great leader, and we would certainly set them back. Right now, with just five jags and three consripts, "we have an average military compared to them", which means they could NOT handle ten of our jags. On the down side, we'd use up our golden age in despotism, and there's no guarantee that the Persians are the only ones ahead of us on the Pyramids. The French (another industrious civ) haven't started yet, though, so that's good. I have not seen sign of Americans, Chinese, or Egyptians, either, though they may be out there. IF THOSE THREE ARE NOT PRESENT, then we surely do have the jump on building the Pyramids, except for Persia, although the lands around Xenalia would need much improvement.

    So we have two primary options: attack Persia, or not.

    We have some strategic choices to make within this context: do we keep Xenalia going on Pyramids, and wait for our smaller cities to build temples, then barracks, then troops? Do we skip the temple at Riggoro (can't at El Dorado, it needs more reach to get shields into production)? Or do we swap Xenalia back to granary, let it finish that, then use it to crank troops while the smaller cities finish temples first? Or do we even waste 9 shields, swap Xenalia to spearmen and start cranking troops immediately?

    If we opt for peace, we can forget the Pyramids, but could still try for the Oracle. (We're too far from Monarchy to go straight for Hanging Garden). Or we could let the granary finish, and start cranking some workers to improve lands, bring spices online and start chopping down some of the jungle.

    On the other hand, if we forget the wonder, opt for war and bend ALL our effort to cranking as many jags as possible as soon as possible, we might wipe Persia out entirely and permanently take over some of their cities, and perhaps even get a leader with which we can rushbuild the Pyramids.

    Many choices. Many options. All of them gambits. Even peace, with Persia our closest neighbor and looking so strong, would be a gambit. For they might grow strong and pose an even worse threat later.

    My vote would be to attack Persia, but I am open to peace if the team wants, and I am undecided about whether to continue the wonder at Xenalia or to go for granary and just pray that the war gives us a leader.

    OneInTen, Schnarrd, Charis, Jester? What do each of you think? I want to hear from you and reach consensus before I post the savegame and start the 10 turn rotation.


    - Sirian
     
  11. Schnarrd

    Schnarrd Panderer of Bad Jokes

    Joined:
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    169
    Location:
    Cleveland, OH
    My preliminary vote would be to attack Persia, but first I'd like to see the game (Sirian, could you upload it so we can see it before we make a decision?). I've never liked starting next to Persia, as I think that Immortals are the best ancient unit in the game, and Persia tends to be quite aggressive. Nothing beats a stack of Immortals in the ancient age. Also, when playing as the Aztecs, it tends to be a given that your golden age will be as a despotism. Besides, it won't be a total waste; we'll still get production bonuses from mined grasslands, and that boost to production equals more jags which might be enough to wipe out Persia. I'd like to see if we can snag the Pyramids too, or at least have Persia build them for us (sometimes when attacked, the AI continues to build wonders, even when you have troops marching on its capitol).

    Early combat is the way to go, especially since we won't be able to rush to republic/democracy and do some major building.
     
  12. Sirian

    Sirian Civ Map Programmer

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    3,651
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    First, a look at our heartland and the northern lands.



    I believe the two yellow dot locations are the highest priority, as both have a grassland with shield in immediate range, and several more good squares on hand for rapid growth once temples are completed.

    In the area of the dark blue dot, we either suffer some overlap or put a lot of land to waste. After ten minutes exploring possibilities, I came up with this one, which leave Dark Blue with eight squares of total overlap with four cities, wastes ZERO squares, and ensures high long term potential for all these cities. I'm convinced this is the best option in this region. So after the yellow dots are grabbed, dark blue would come next in priority, then the two light blue squares in the far north.

    The purple, red, and two white dots are all "Projects". They will be strong cities in the distant future, but will have dismal starts, therefore they should wait until more productive locations are online.

    Now we COULD have one stronger city in the eastern jungle, with no overlap anywhere and only two jungle squares wasted. Or we could do the purple-red plan, have two cities, get more coastal and sea squares into production, waste one jungle square, and have some overlap. The reason I prefer two cities is that, being restricted to Monarchy, COASTAL SQUARES BECOME MORE VALUABLE, and being Militaristic, we build harbors at half cost. Coastal squares offer 2 trade apiece, and 1 from darker blue sea squares. The more coast we bring online, and the more harbors we have, the more total population size and trade power we will have. So I value two lesser but still good cities over one perfect blockbuster. Purple should come before Red because it can grab that whale and it's on the river.

    There's a black dot in the far north, in the desert, where a fishing village could go.



    Now a look at our southern region:



    With such dry lands, and keeping in mind that we want to maximize coastal harvesting, I drew up a plan to found all our new southern cities (besides Crystal Lake) on the sea. This left the areas you see marked in bright green as unclaimed, and we could fill these in with half-cities, intended to be permanently kept to size 6/7, for continuous production of workers and, after industrial, to crank out one conscript unit each per turn. The green dots would mark where I think these half-city inland settlements might go. The one on the right had a flood plain in range under the black X, and could borrow the two hollow green circles temporarily, until railroads arrive.

    The light blue dot I marked in the wrong place, it should be one more to the southeast. I marked it early, though, and didn't want to redraw the entire picture to move it, so just try to remember it's in the wrong place. :) I thought initially it should go there to get a free food out of the desert, but if moved to the southeast, it would get two more coastline into play, and reduce overlap with the green dot.

    Red and Purple dots are REALLY barren locations, and should wait until the whites are all grabbed, unless the French are pushing too far toward us. (But then, they would only sail around and grab white dot areas, so even then I say get the whites first).

    Riggoro has that cattle, so it's the best settler factory, but not if we decide to make war on Persia (It would have to crank troops). If ever do get the Pyramids, we could expand pretty rapidly from there. We also need a lot of settlers and workers, yet we might do better to wage an ancient war while our chances for success are still high. There are just so MANY possibilities, and we can't pursue them all at once, so... we'll have to pick and choose, and to some degree, take what the game gives us.

    Looking forward to getting underway. :king:


    - Sirian
     
  13. OneInTen

    OneInTen Darkness bound

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    Location:
    brisbane.qld.au
    I generally play a mostly peaceful game, but in this case it sounds as if war might be our best option.

    By the sounds of it growth is going to be at a premium on the map we have, hence the granary in every city the pyramids provides is even more of a boon than usual.

    Since we have no plans to get past monarchy, a fast start seems vital, thus I think we need the pyramids, and if you believe the only way to get them is to attack persia, then that's what we have to do.

    However, I don't claim to be a great early game war monger, so I'd appreciate not being next in the turn order if we do decide to attack. ;)
     
  14. Iester

    Iester Entirely Without Humour

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2002
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    259
    My entire Civ2 existence was defined by being a devoutly pacifist massively expansionistic settler maniac, never attacking until I had more tanks than there were squares on the map.

    So, naturally, my vote is to beat our enemies until they cry for mercy, then beat them some more. Cry havoc, and unleash the sheep of war!

    :sheep:

    Early game conquest is easily the way to go. One question, though. If the Persians have access to iron, they become about a bazillion times more dangerous. Would that change the situation any? I've fought against immortals early on, and it's just about the worst thing that can possibly happen to a fledgeling civilization.

    I could play this either way, and I'm always leery of the Persians. But my vote goes to slaughter, quick and painful.
     
  15. Sirian

    Sirian Civ Map Programmer

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    Although we haven't heard from Charis yet, the consensus seems to be leaning toward war. But what should we do with Xenalia? If we keep it on a wonder, we would have to fight our war with just two cities, both of them small and fledgling, and far from ready. It would take quite some time to finish temples and barracks, then build troops. All we'd be able to do is attack the enemy capital and take it, then have to make peace with the remainder of the Persians, or raze the city and pull back with our survivors.

    On the other hand, if we swap Xenalia to spearman (to waste least amount of shields), then crank jags every other turn, we can send a continuous stream of troops northward starting immediately, and prosecute a total war to take over and/or wipe out all of Persia.

    Surely the total war approach is less risky, but it would mean no Pyramids for us unless we get a great leader out of the war (possible, but I've played with Aztecs and never gotten a GL out of the early war. Those jags get wounded a lot and have to rest up, and rarely actually win in combat on a per-unit basis).


    It's easy to keep iron out of Persian hands if we can see where the iron is. Only Zulu Impi are more effective pillagers than Jags. But we are on a long term unswervable direct beeline toward Monarchy, which will probably take another 70 turns no matter what we do. So the only way we'd get Iron Working is from a goody hut (unlikely, since we've gotten 11 of those so far and now covered all the lands not already explored by the AI's) or through trade. Trade is possible, but won't happen any time soon, as we have nothing to trade until Polytheism comes in.

    Persian Immortals remain a threat all the way to the industrial age, but we do have horseback riding and horses in range, so even without poprushing, we could build enough horses to cope with their immortals by the time they could march them all the way down to our cities. Sometimes the best defense is a good offense, though. If we take out Persian cities, they can't build the Immortals in the first place.

    I'd rather stay the course with the Pyramids, ideally, but that is quite risky, since all it would take for the Persians to be able to fight us off is three or four immortals, and we have no idea how advanced the largest civs in the world are. (If a pack of six of them met early and traded a lot, they could be several techs ahead of us by now, and some may have started Pyramids, while our city has no more shield squares ready to go). Not continuing the Pyramids now means losing them to someone else if we try to go back and build them later. If we swap off them, we'd have to get a leader to be able to build them.

    Even so, the Pyramids aren't the end-all, be-all. They help more than any other wonder on a map like this, but it's really tough to grab them if you wait as long we did to start. Every time I've gotten them, I've had food surpluses (wheat, cattle) on hand at my capital. If we cranked Jags every other turn from Xenalia, starting right away and not relenting, we could definitely overrun the Persians and capture all their cities, and then build the Hanging Gardens.

    I guess the real issue is whether or not we stand a better chance of getting a great leader in a total war than we stand of building the Pyramids all on our own. And there is still the wildcard of being hit with a bout of disease, which could reduce our capital back to size 1 at ANY point the game decides to punish us.

    So how lucky do you guys feel? Total war? Or try to play both ends and take a shot at the Pyramids? (And still waiting for Charis to weigh in).


    - Sirian
     
  16. Charis

    Charis Realms Beyond

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    Midwest, USA
    Xerxes blood shall make our fine Mayan grass grow!! I just have a BAD taste left in my mouth from rbd1 starting (not quite) next to the Persians. Seeing the stacks of DOZENS of immortals shift around left this lingering feeling that the instant they decided it, I was to be wiped off the map. Before their iron, let our little scrappy jaggies eat their lunch. Get Iron working ourselves early to be able to see and plunder any resource they might have.

    Keep our capital on the pyramids, scrap the temple, and if needed the barracks. Overwhelm them in an army of every-pouring-out jaggies! :spank:

    Games where you have a incremental advantage over your aggressive near neighbor have gone very well for me so far...
    Games too close to pacifism have been long slogs.

    It seems we're unanimous... Persia must go!

    :goodjob:
    Charis
     
  17. OneInTen

    OneInTen Darkness bound

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    Messages:
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    Location:
    brisbane.qld.au
    There is another option - play the gambit that the Persians will complete the pyramids first, and we should attack on the very turn that happens (or as close as possible), thus getting them to build the pyramids for us. :D

    If we did this, we could build our military, take Persia out early, and still get the pyramids.

    It's a risk, but think how cool it'd be if we pulled it off! ;)
     
  18. Sirian

    Sirian Civ Map Programmer

    Joined:
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    OneInTen: you're right, that is another possibility! We'd not get the culture for it, but we'd get the free granaries. There is a down side, though: someone else might beat Persia to it. Not highly likely, but possible. And that would mean it would be too late to use a leader on it.

    My instinct is telling me that it's a losing move to stick with the wonder in the capital. There are 8 more competitors we have too little information about to stake so much on a late risk, with so few shields ready to go and the threat of disease hanging over us. The more I look at it, the more I think "longshot" for us to build the first wonder from that city.

    Let's forego the attempt to build it ourselves. Charis is right, RBD1 and Persia with the Pyramids was just really ugly. Let's go for the total war approach. I'll change the production over to a spearman (we'll only lose ONE turn off our next Jag, so really it's not 9 shields lost, but only 5, effectively). Then Xenalia can crank troops until the cows come home (maybe a settler or worker in there as it grows to size 3 or 4, but don't shrink it down below size 2, as we want to keep production at 5 per turn or more).

    Don't worry about iron working. With the total war approach, it WILL NOT MATTER. Persia is doomed. Also, be warned, once we bring Iron online for our civ, we lose the option to build any more Jags.

    OneInTen, you don't have to worry, the war couldn't start on your turn anyway. You'll be exploring, managing the smaller cities, maybe some diplomacy, etc. If I put you later in the turn order, you'd be MORE in harm's way as far as the war goes.


    One word of warning about Jaguar warriors: their strength lies in numbers. A stack of 9 is a force to be reckoned with, at the same shield cost as 3 horsies or swords. But three stacks of 3 is chump change. WAIT until we have at least 8+ in one stack before we take any aggressive moves. Save elites to mop up wounded enemies (better chance for a leader).

    No Right of Passage betrayals, and don't make peace with the intent of attacking again in the short term.

    The best news is, once we commit to total war, it will take us some time to prepare, and we can postpone the decision about trying to let the Persians finish the Pyramids. We might attack their outlying cities first, and give them a chance to finish Pyramids while we still try to get a leader, or we might decide we can't risk it and go right for the throat. We need more information, so keep exploring up there, let Xenalia pump out Jags while the other cities prepare (temples, barracks) and we'll see what new information more time presents to us.

    If this decision goes poorly, I'll save a copy of the savegame and, after the succession game is over, any of you can go back to 1750BC and see what replaying it differently might have yielded.


    - Sirian
     
  19. Sirian

    Sirian Civ Map Programmer

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    Got late word that Cy asked in on this one earlier today, so we'll squeeze him in here.

    10 turns per player.
    No worker automation, don't overdo "Goto" either.
    24 hours to take your turn -OR- to post "got it" with up to another 24 to post your result.


    Roster and Turn Order:

    Sirian
    OneInTen
    Charis
    Schnarrd
    Jester
    Cyrene

    This order is based on first come, first served. (Charis made his application known on another forum while this one was still down). So OneInTen, you're the next Benevolent. Good luck!

    Cy, if you want to express your thoughts regarding our planned war, do chime in.

    - Sirian
     
  20. OneInTen

    OneInTen Darkness bound

    Joined:
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    Location:
    brisbane.qld.au
    0) 1750BC: Spearman completed in Capital, start Jaguar Warrior

    1) 1725BC: Continue scouting.

    2) 1700BC: Jaguar completed in Capital, start another.

    3) 1675BC: Goodie hut spotted by warrior. Riggoro completes temple, starts barracks.

    4) 1650BC: Capital completes another Jaguar, continues producing them. El Dorado completes temple, starts Barracks.

    5) 1625BC: Nothing much happens.

    6) 1600BC: Capital makes another Jaguar, you know the rest.

    7) 1575BC: Good news and bad news from the hut - we get Iron Working from the Teoihuacans! However, Persians have iron in their territory, and we dont! :(

    8) 1550BC: Capital completes its customary Jaguar. Riggoro finishes its barracks and can start Jaguar production.

    9) 1525BC: Spot Persian warrior just to our North ... guess they know where we are now. French begin Pyramids.

    10) 1500BC: Nothing much happening.

    ---

    Well, that was a fairly mundane turn, but it leaves us with a lot better knowledge of where we stand. Persians have iron close at hand, as soon as they get Iron Working they will be a huge threat to us. If we're going to attack we have to do so as soon as possible!

    Our nearest source of Iron sits on the western most white dot on the map of our south. This probably changes the priority for settling that dot a bit. ;)

    I think we can probably get troops up to Persia in sufficient numbers before they get Iron Working and get their Immortals online, but it may be a close call. I'm glad I don't have to make it. :p
     

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