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RBD Succession game 2 - Nippon Rising

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Succession Games' started by Sirian, Jan 5, 2002.

  1. Sirian

    Sirian Civ Map Programmer

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Pennsylvania, USA
    This is the second succession game being played by a group of folks from Realms Beyond Diablo. :satan: Well, this is certainly beyond Diablo, so here goes. :cool: Game arranged by Zed. These are the parameters he chose:

    Players (in turn order):
    Sirian
    Carbon Copy
    Charis
    Zed
    Jaffa
    Ionpure

    Turn submission:
    24 hrs to accept/decline your turn, up to an additional 48 to play it (obviously promptness is a virtue, however)

    Turn duration: 10 turns
    1st round turns: 30-20-20-20-15-15

    Civ: Japan
    Map: Small, random landmass, random climate, restless barbarians
    Difficulty: Monarch
    Opponents: max random opponents
    Victories: all

    Other rules:
    No worker automation
    No save & reload

    I'll start the game with the specified settings and post the result of my turn shortly.


    - Sirian
     
  2. Ionpure

    Ionpure Chieftain

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    Munic, Germany
    Just checking in :)

    Eagerly awaiting my turn :goodjob: - hope we'll have fun

    Sayonara

    Ion-san :king:
     
  3. Sirian

    Sirian Civ Map Programmer

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    In the Year 4000BC, the Great Mother sent forth her call to the people of the earth. As Her Prophet, She chose a strong young bard named Siriansan :jesus: who spoke her Truth and was known by our people as as the Wisest. Siriansan did write many verses, and these are recorded in our great Rituals of the Sun, passed on from generation to generation through our tribal elders and shamen, and sung around campfires all across Nippon.

    Siriansan did reveal that our people should cease to wander the lands, hunting, foraging, gathering. Rather, we should settle down and work the earth, bringing forth bountiful crops, and tend herds, which when bred properly could be sustained indefinitely. This was the Vision of the Great Mother :queen: that Her people should grow fruitful and spread across the face of the earth. So Siriansan did lead our people on the Trek to the Promised Land. Fifty Years we did wander, until reaching our beloved sacred valley here at Kyoto. The flower of our civilization was planted here, and according to the Mother's vision as told by Siriansan, we have come to tend our crops and herds.

    Siriansan did age and perish :( for though he was the Prophet who spoke for the Great Mother :queen: he was not himself divine, but only a man. His wisdom and his verses guide us still, and so does the love of the Great Mother. For we are a religious people with deep faith, united by dedication and favored of the earth. A great Ritual was conceived by Siriansan's successor, as the Prophet was laid to rest. A day of Thanksgiving and Song shall be held on Midsummer's Eve each year, and our people shall feast on the bounty of our land and revel in the richness of our culture and sing praise to the Mother and Her Wisest.

    Our people flourished in the rich lands of the Kyoto Valley. As our numbers multiplied, a war party from a neighboring people came into our lands. Many of our people feared, but the Verses guided us. Our leaders traded knowledge of the Wheel and two cartfuls of gold for knowledge of Masonry. This war party of people calling themselves "Egyptians" then wandered past our city to a minor tribe in the mountains overlooking our valley, and convinced them to pick up and serve Egypt as nomadic warriors. This frightened and disappointed some of our people, who knew of this tribe and had urged that we train our own war party to negotiate with them, but the current warlord insisted that we focus all our efforts on adhering to the Verses, which directed us to spread our people across the earth. For who needs to train so many warriors when the hand of the Great Mother Herself shields our people here in our sacred valley? And so it came to pass, to the marvel of all our people, that the Verses were true, and the hordes of Egyptian warriors passed peacefully through our lands and then returned south, without making war upon us, despite our seeming vulnerability. Surely only the Mother Herself could enact such a divine miracle.

    As rapidly as possible, our workers irrigated our richest farmlands, built roads to them in and out of Kyoto, while our prophets and shamen directed the outfitting of Nipponese settlers, who did venture south to the shores of the Mother's River, where our settlement of Osaka was founded. This established our border with mighty Egypt, near their capital city of Thebes, and we did secure more rich farmlands. Nearby there are large herds of horses which we may train to pull our chariots, if we can tame them. Truly the Verses have sustained us and the Mother's own Hand guides our leaders, for if the Egyptians had seized this land first, the horses would belong to them.

    "Now we must train our army", some said, but the shamen insisted that we needed no army. For did not the Egyptian warriors pass us by, turned away by the Great Mother? No one can harm us here in Kyoto. "Ah, but what of Osaka?" some said, and this did confound the Keepers of the Verse. There was great debate over whether the Mother's Protection shielded us only in our sacred homeland, or indeed everywhere our people should spread out to live. Though some called it blasphemy, our warlord decided that armed forces should be trained to defend Osaka, even as Kyoto continued to farm and grow, and prepare to send forth more settlers. At times our people grew so fruitful, we did have to spend some of our resources to pay for luxuries to keep them happy. Far better to open the Royal Treasury to satisfy our people, than to ever betray the Verses of Siriansan by removing workers from our fields to dance and frolick as entertainers, or harass our people with the collection of extra taxes.

    So it became the Law: all citizens of Kyoto shall work the fields, there will be no idle loafers. Our warlords are charged with maintaining order, and they may do so by whatever means are necessary, so long as all our people in Kyoto are allowed to work and to farm. Only the wisdom of the Verses and Traditions, and the good sense of our warlords, can determine how much, if any, of our taxes in any given era should go to luxuries, but there shall be no dissent at their spending, for the Law must be kept in Kyoto. Our leaders may decide whether to work more in the fields, forests, hills or mountains, as they see fit, but all in Kyoto must work. This is the covenant laid down on us by the Mother, whose rich blessings shall be ours if we keep her charge.

    As our shamen discovered the secrets of working clay into pottery, so our people set to unraveling the mysteries of metal working -- bronze. For even as we outfitted more settlers, and whilst no defense would ever be needed in Kyoto, our warlords did foresee a time when our people would grow so numerous, we would need armed forces in our sacred valley just to keep order among our OWN people! Yes, as incredible as that may sound, our people will one day grow that numerous. So sayeth the Verses. Yet shall we train our fighters in Kyoto with the lowly axe? With tools of stone? No! We shall shall know it is time to train armed forces when our knowledge of weaponry has improved enough to train warriors so mighty, they will be worthy of Her Approval. :ninja:

    So our settlers set forth to the west, founding Tokyo on the coast, on a great plain amidst roaring herds of elephants. Our shamen discovered the wonders of elephant tusk, and Tokyo was made rich with fine ivory.

    Our warlords approached the Keepers of the Verse, complaining of the amount of luxuries necessary to keep all our people content. The shamen did consult the Verses, and scanned the heavens for Signs from the Great Mother. When a brilliant shower of falling stars was seen, the Keepers directed the construction of a grand temple in Kyoto, which should become the site of the heart of our noble religion, where any Nippon citizen might be welcomed to devote themselves to the Mother. So it was decided.

    As Kyoto continued in its perfect safety, our army in Osaka was commissioned and set to exploring. The warlord there, jealous of the piety and superior airs of the shamen from Kyoto, decided that Osaka should build the first Temple of the Mother. And so he rounded up all his citizens and forced the men to construct a temple. Many Osakans perished in the brutal and dangerous task, and whips cracked night and day. The Temple was built, but the citizens threatened to riot, and so our army in Osaka was hurriedly called home to keep the peace. Citizens in Osaka grumbled about the brutality of their warlord, but they did hold great pride in being the first Nippon city with a grand Temple, and their piety in following the visions of Siriansan is said to be unrivaled.

    When the warlord in Kyoto heard of the plans of the Osakans, that they were going to complete their temple sooner through use of forced labor, he did draw up a plan to do the same. When the Keepers heard of these plans, a crisis befell our people as for the first time, a warlord was determined to be acting counter to the Verses. For was it not the Law of the Mother, as handed to us through the Covenent of Kyoto, that all in Kyoto must work the fields and forests? Bringing them home to force them to work on the temple instead, and to treat them harshly, that might be fit for the frontier, but not our sacred valley. The warlord was found guilty of Heresy, and he was skinned alive as a sacrifice to appease the Mother and assure her that her people had not broken her Law. For we in Kyoto must work the land. So it is sung in our songs, so it shall be. That no disasters befell us after this incident was taken as proof of the correct interpretion of the Verse by our shamen.

    Tokyo, too, longs to build a temple, but first they need an army. :ninja: Will the whip crack in Tokyo some day? Many believe it is inevitable, as they long to gain the status and cultural influence of the other great cities of our people, and yet their farmlands are not as rich. Their army shall be trained in the use of superior weaponry, for our people finally did learn the secrets of Bronze. There is even talk of irrigating the lands around Tokyo and plans for construction of a great Colossus of bronze, but whether these are True Visions is not yet known.

    The Verses of Siriansan have led us to great prosperity. We have three grand cities, two wondrous Temples to mark the glory of our Mother, and a mighty army stationed in Osaka. Our people carve many holy relics from the fine ivory of Tokyo, although we need roads to better cart these goods around our empire. Our scouts have reported that fine spices grow in the jungles to our north. Our shamen believe this is a Sign, that we should send forth settlers to this area to harvest this bounty in the name of the Great Mother. :queen:

    Our warlords hunger for more troops to command, and the Keepers of the Verse have finally given permission to train an army in Kyoto -- strictly for the purpose of keeping order, of course, since no enemy will ever dare attack the sacred valley.

    Our people prosper :love: and we have much hope for the future.


    - Sirian
     
  4. Sirian

    Sirian Civ Map Programmer

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    I've attached the initial save from the first turn. We got a brilliant starting location, with two wheat, a cattle, and on a lake! What a bounty. No gold bonus from river, so our early research will be a tad slowish, so some extra priority needs to be put on building roads near the capital, in all our good squares.

    I decided to take the risk of the Farmer's Gambit. We started on one of the wheat, and rather than waste this wheat by settling there, I moved a square. This also got the cattle into play immediately, and I started in on first irrigating the wheat, then building a road there. After four turns at 3 surplus food and 2 shield, I swapped to the irrigated wheat and got to 4 surplus food with 1 shield -- but only for a single turn at 1 shield, as when you grow, you DO get the extra shields from the extra population added to your project. So the shields went like this: 2 2 2 2 1 2, as we grew to size 2 on turn 7. I built the road next, then moved through the city onto the cattle square, irrigated that, then built a road there. It was nervous time as the Egyptians moved around us to steal the goody hut to the north. I was QUITE glad to see a conscript warrior pop out for them, rather than tech or gold. No big loss to us, then, and I felt vindicated. If the Egyptians had set their mind to it, they could have waltzed into our city and defeated us, as we had no army. I built a settler, then another, running max science the whole time on Pottery, and running luxuries at whatever was needed to get one into entertainment, whenever our city was size 3. (You can't pull this off on Emperor, you have to build a military unit first, as you go into unhappy people starting at size 2, not 3).

    So this is what we built in Kyoto: a settler, a settler, a temple. That's it, folks, no military. Big gamble, but our land looks small and there has been no hint of barbarians. By doing the growing part first, consolodation second, we massively improve our growth curve. Huge risk I wouldn't try if I weren't going first, because if it failed, I could start another game for us. If someone else had gone first, and I was coming later, I'd feel obligated to play it more cautiously.

    Anyhow, after 30 turns, this is where we stand:



    The red dot marks the likely site of our next city, unless that region is uninhabitable. Our city should try to get both spices in range, as there does not appear to be a lot of land up there. However, if there is more land, and the warlord in charge of the expedition so decides (after consulting the Verses, of course), another site may be chosen. We need to grab the spice area soon, lest the Egyptians boldly send someone up there to seize control of it. If the red dot area is a mountain or sea square, and all that lies beyond is more sea, then settle on the northern spice.

    The blue dot marks a preferred city site, unless there is more land up there than I believe. We should get some kind of city up there sooner rather than later, as it looks like decently fertile lands. Do build all future cities on the coastlines, please, as our first two are landlocked.

    The white dot marks a definite city location of moderate priority. The yellow dot marks a likely city site of lower priority, perhaps depending on what explorers find in the area of the green question marks -- and on what the Egyptians do. We cannot see their second city, so there must be more lands to the south, but on a small map, corruption is so large of a problem, we can't afford to be roaming too far. Better to secure all the land near us and get as many useful cities going as quickly as we can manage.

    Whether or not to try for an early wonder in Kyoto is up to future leaders. The city can grow beyond six and has a TON of food, so we could run luxuries as high as necessary. We CAN start the pyramids at any time, but judging by what I see so far, the Lighthouse may be the most useful wonder, and we can't build that in Kyoto. :( Tokyo could try for it, or the Colossus, but it would need a lot of land improvement in a hurry to pull that off. Kyoto could crank workers out like nobody's business if they built a granary, grew to size 7, and churned workers every 1 or 2 turns at the "100% food conservation" threshold growing from 6 to 7 over and over again. Lots of possibilities here. We could even, I suppose, get the horses going and try to build an army to overrun Egypt. I'm not too fond of endless whipping whipping whipping in permanent despotism, and the only fast growing city we have is our capital, which can build units faster than we can whip them if we let it grow, but I've done almost zero exploring and we need to know more about our situation before making any final decisions about the sort of game we may try to play here.

    Good luck, Carbon Copy. May your reign be prosperous and secure.

    I've attached the original save from 4000BC here, for any spectators who want to try their hand at this start and see what they can make of it.


    - Sirian
     

    Attached Files:

  5. Charis

    Charis Realms Beyond

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    Sirian, excellent start :)

    Before looking at where you founded I took a look at the 4000 save and thought where I would settle. I didn't realize that was a nice fresh water inland lake, and would have chosen a worse spot.

    I think we're off to a very rapid start, ***if*** we don't get
    simply wiped up by Barbarians or the Egyptians. Sorta have that
    "if things look rosy, look more closely, something is dreadfully wrong" feeling :p With Osaka our "border" town I would change the worker to Spearmen immediately. Looking at the mini-world map in the corner, Egypt may just have almost no room down there. **if** the land to the north, dark regions, are for us also sea, then we might be stuck on a smal island with room enough for only one civ. That civ shall be us!! I'm probably being paranoid, but that's about the only thing I can think of early on that would mean a big problem. If there is room up north, the spot NE of your red dot might be a little less 'packed'. Hmm.... do you in fact TRY to moderately densely pack your capitol suburbs to keep corruption down? I tend for more of a '5 apart' strat, which seals in on first expansion and overlaps zero squares, but then again I have more corruption probs. (Nevermind, I just reread your comments below and saw the 'small map corruption issue'. I would tend to settle out-to-in, going for green before yellow dots.

    Japan. Religious and militaristic. Cheap barracks and temples and extra leader chances. Throw in the fast Samurai with stronger defense than a Knight, and it's a good combo. A Samurai based golden age crusade would be fun.

    Should be an interesting game. Better get some weed :lol: Good luck to CC on this upcoming turn, it could be rather important even though early yet.
    Charis
     
  6. Carbon_Copy

    Carbon_Copy Elemental

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    :eek:
    wow, this game got off to a fast start. I'll do my best. If you don't see my writeup and file at some ungodly early hour, then it will arrive sometime early next evening (both times EST).
     
  7. Sirian

    Sirian Civ Map Programmer

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    Charis: the AI is simply not that aggressive early in the game. They WILL waltz into a completely undefended town from time to time after 3000 BC, and maybe the Aztecs (who have immediate access to their UU) would get bold, but that's about it. Now come Circa 1000BC may be another story, but that one warrior down in Osaka will deter the Egyptians for a bit longer, presuming we build units in the other towns. Barbarians, on the other hand, are madly aggressive, making a beeline for the nearest means of wreaking mischief on you, but we've passed the danger point of that problem -- and likely won't ever see any barbarians, as our land to the north doesn't reach far into the blackness (I could see partial shorelines that aren't completely clear in the compressed jpeg I posted).

    Far better to build the worker and improve the land, as that city is dragging in just one shield per and this situation needs to be corrected ASAP, otherwise it doesn't matter WHAT you build because it won't be finished on your turn anyway. :p In fact, the growth curve of a second worker (then barracks and units) will likely outpace the plan you outlined, the only question being how soon the Egyptians MIGHT attack. Well, with room for at least one of their settlers down in the green area, I'm confident they won't make war on Osaka during Carbon's turn. The AI, sadly, has only one modus operadi in the early game, and that's to expand expand expand. Come your turn... well, maybe by then a little larger army would be a good idea. :) Once the horsie goes online, their interest in taking Osaka from us will be increased.

    Kyoto could do all kinds of things, but unless it's building a wonder soon, one thing that should happen is to build cheap barracks before any more units (after the first one, which is needed soon just to deter aggressors). These first three units should be the ONLY nonveteran units we ever build, IMO. Nonvet units could squander our chance of an early leader, and there's just no reason at all with a Militaristic civ not to plan well enough to avoid building more than a couple early crappy untrained units.


    EDIT: one more thing I forgot: militaristic civs build all things military on the cheap: barracks, walls, HARBORS, airports, coastal forts, SAM batteries. Building walls in Osaka, at some earlyish point, even though they will go obsolete once the city grows the size 7, might help calm some of Charis's anxieties. :) At only ten shields and no maintenance, I prefer that to building an extra regular warrior. Build walls, and veteran spearmen that can be upgraded on a regular basis. Warriors dead end in the early middle ages.

    With so many of our cities going to be on the coast, and packed more than I would like (I prefer at most two squares of overlap per city, under normal conditions) simply because the choices are either to pack or to not build (and that's no choice)... it seems like those cheap harbors will play a vital role in our growth. I urge a rapid progression on toward mapmaking, for the harbors as well as an early chance to expand to any nearby islands before they are grabbed.

    Generally on small maps (especially TINY maps) it is wise to build fewer cities of higher quality, because the biggest corruption factor is number of cities, and the penalty for extra cities gets much worse on smaller maps. Thus, I'd rather minimize overlap and look longer term, whereas on huge maps, it hardly matters, and most of what you do to win or lose will ultimately happen before Sanitation on those huge maps, so even bad overlap in some cases just doesn't matter. Well, it matters on small maps, but if your capital is at the heart of a smallish island, like this, what choice do you have? You build cities as far apart as you can, but you don't waste land, because you don't have enough to afford to waste any, and it's usually better to have a square or two of overlap, and be one square closer to the capital, than not. Overlap of modest proportions doesn't become a draining factor until Sanitation, which is QUITE late in the game. Coastal half-cities may never become powerhouse production centers, but they can build a library and all that sea trade racks the economy up a notch. In effect, you use the sea as "extra land" when you don't have enough land to suit.


    - Sirian
     
  8. Ionpure

    Ionpure Chieftain

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    Nice start Sirian :)

    I checked the starting position too. Just one question: Is there any reason not to build the first city ON the starting position with wheat?

    - all resources within the city radius
    - you still get the wheat food bonus even if the resource is not displayed --> means one extra food right from the start
    - saves one turn

    Do I miss something :confused:

    Edit: OK, found Sirians comments on the starting position and rechecked it. I could grew to size 2 two turns earlier when I settled ON the wheat (saved one turn, one extra food) but lost one turn on my way for the first settler because of the lower production- cattle comes later into play. Both starting positions seem quite equal for me ... just seems to be a matter of personal preferences :p
     
  9. Sirian

    Sirian Civ Map Programmer

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    Yes, there absolutely is a reason not to build on wheat or cattle, unless there is no palatable alternative. The square will be forever stuck at three food, while otherwise it could be irrigated to four food and a railroad could take it to five. Building on wheat is not a complete waste, but usually there is a better alternative.

    If not for the oddities of despotism, it wouldn't matter. After a change of government to something, ANYthing better, there is no more reason to try to avoid building on wheat or cattle. Here's the math:

    No matter WHAT kind of terrain you build on, you get two food and one shield. (Wheat bonus would be added, but wheat is one of the few squares you can get to the magic 3+ food benefit from under despotism). It is thus desirable, in a sense, to build on deserts or on grassland without a shield, as you get either a free food or a free shield out of a location you otherwise would not. Building on hills can be desirable for the same reason: extra food, plus the defensive bonus doesn't hurt. Of course, this kind of bonus is not worth passing up a more ideal location, but it is something to keep in mind, especially if you have multiple options that otherwise seem like a tossup decision.

    So now we have three squares which, when irrigated, yield 4 food each. That's a LOT of food under despotism, and the faster your city grows, the more trade and shields the extra population brings in. Being on Fresh water means extra growth, too. If we built on the wheat, that wheat would have been limited to 3 food, lowering our despotism food supersurplus from 2 2 2 to 1 2 2, and robbing us of access to that cattle for the first several turns, which would have slowed our growth curve by MORE than the one turn lost in moving before settling. Our worker would have taken longer to irrigate, taken longer to reach Osaka, and Osaka itself might have been built in a less desirable spot, either losing access to the horses, or squeezing one of our potential city locations right off the map -- certainly giving up the contest with Thebes for some of the disputed lands -- and it just gets more complex from there in trying to evaluate. Of course, I didn't know all this at the time, but the position I moved to turned out to be MUCH better strategically, even than my initial reasons for moving there. That I got a free shield out of that grassland was just a bonus.

    Considering how close the shore to the west turned out to be, Tokyo would have been badly overlapped if I had plunked down right on that wheat. Do you realize that with its early rushed temple, Osaka could potentially catch up to Thebes in culture and take control of the dye? We need to get a library there asap and pour on the heat, unless Thebes completes an early wonder, thus assuring its dominance. Thebes has a palace, which was worth 1 culture per turn, but rose to 2 after 3000 bc. That's a total, by the end of my turn, of 40 culture. Osaka had 4 culture, after two turns of temple. So it's only 36 behind, and its temple will hit 1000year double-culture bonus in 1630BC! So it all depends on how quickly the Egyptians build their temple in Thebes (they, too, are religious), and how soon we improve Osaka, and whether or not either builds any wonders. I think we have a legit chance to take cultural control of the three disputed squares, including the dye. Of course, if Charis builds a spearman at one shield per turn, and another 2000 years pass without any more cultural improvements in Osaka, then Egypt will win that conflict. It's not really a major deal, and not worth taking any serious risks or costs to pursue, but there is a luxury hanging in the balance.


    - Sirian
     
  10. Ionpure

    Ionpure Chieftain

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    Yes your math is correct under the oddities of despotism, but there is still a kind of momentum since you could start with 6 food instead of 5 (7/6 when first wheat is irrigated). The momentum stays alive when the city grows to size 2 (cattle comes into play at this time if we build on wheat) - you get 9 food instead of 8 (11/10 when irrigated). Things change when you reach size 3 and after that there will be 1 food more (as you described, until the government is changed).

    Anyway - the worker will need a bit more time for irrigation (you can still irrigate the wheat next to the city right from the start). And of course the spot you chose really turned out to be MUCH strategically better.

    Very good start :)
     
  11. Sirian

    Sirian Civ Map Programmer

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    Getting closer, but you still overlooked one thing. If we build on the first wheat, the cattle does NOT come into play when we grow to size 2. Borders expand based on culture and would take ten turns. So we'd be stuck with a grassland or forest for several turns as our second production square, pending the growth in cultural control range, and there goes the surplus in food you're calculating. We'd probably be size 4 before the settler was built, or else slow the extra food to trade it for shields anyway. A forest would give us the shields we'd be missing but drop the food rate down to 4 surplus. To get the cattle online sooner, the worker would have to cross the grassland without building a road, then double back to get the road before moving on to Osaka, muchly delaying land improvement at Osaka, with implications that start to mount past my ability to enumerate entirely.

    Still, it IS a close call. Where it won't be as close is down the line, with the city at size 8+, all the grassland taken, and able to get one extra forest or mined hill in the mix and still maintain the highest available growth rates. Despotism lasts a long long time, and as vital to the growth curve as early efficiency is, it's not the only consideration. This is why it's never worthwhile to whip in your capital unless all you have is floodplains with no hope of decent shield output. It's more valuable to be larger sooner. The more corruption, the more useful forced labor -- also useful in cities in pitiful shield counts but lots of food, regardless of corruption. I'm not entirely sure if I can spell it all out, but even ignoring the larger picture of strategic positioning and looking just at those first 30 turns and the three cities involved, you could try playing it out different ways just as an exercise, and see where the total package stands in 2550, to see whether it really is a tossup or not. It's difficult to project ahead more than about ten turns, but there is the growth curve of all three cities, based on their land, proximity and likely results of workers, etc etc. The main strength of my move as compared to the other would be how soon irrigated plains and wheat come online at Osaka, and the position of Osaka itself. That still doesn't come into play on my original decision to move a square, but it would factor in your evaluation of any alternative results you achieve by way of trying other options.

    Efficiency options in the early game are perhaps the easiest to examine, and still there are a lot of variables to account for, including luck, and also including "intuitive" understanding of the terrain creation engine in seeing how it lays out terrain, to have a better sense from the lay of mountains, rivers, lakes, etc, as to what the LIKELY shape and quality of nearby lands may be. I say intuitive because I have developed such a sense but can in no way explain it yet, because I'm leaping across missing or incomplete data to conclusions of "probable" situations, knowing that more often than not, I'll do better thereby.

    I've actually tried the build-on-the-wheat option, you see, in my first game -- and concluded, as with many other things in that game, that my leftover impressions from Civ1 and Civ2 were largely faulty in regard to civ3. I won't build on wheat or cattle early in a game any more unless I'm convinced that all other options are markedly inferior in some regard.

    It's a Virgo thing, paying so much attention to minutiae. :) My friends just put up with it, and maybe let me know gently if I'm getting out of hand and annoying them with too much talk about it. :)


    - Sirian
     
  12. Carbon_Copy

    Carbon_Copy Elemental

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    Location:
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    I've been under some ridiculous time restraints. But here it is, my 20. No time to write any chronicles, so here's just my notes, almost verbatim

    2510 BC
    -Nothing

    2470 BC
    -Nothing

    2430 BC
    -Osaka cultural expansion, horsie now in our borders
    -Kyoto to size 4, luxuries increased to 20% to avoid rioting

    2390 BC
    -Kyoto finishes spearman, trains settler, luxuries backed down to zero
    -The worker by Osaka finishes irrigation, starts building a road

    2350 BC
    -Nothing

    2310 BC
    -2(!!) Barbs appear from the northwest, heading for Kyoto. Briefly consider changing production to a second spear, but decide to risk continuing with the settler.
    -Tokyo finishes a spearman, he is sent to the north to investigate

    2270 BC
    -3rd Barb seen heading towards Kyoto from NW
    -Osaka completes worker, begin moving him to irrigate the second wheat.
    -Road to Osaka finished, the worker sent to build a road to the horsie

    2230 BC
    -Civil Disorder in Kyoto (oops), luxuries to 10% to stop rioting, no laborers taken out of production
    -Irrigation/roads by Osaka started
    -Spearman in Kyoto kills both of the first two barbarians easily, becomes a veteran.
    -Palace expanded for the first time. I plant a lawn in front of our stone hut
    -The spearman from Tokyo spots the barb camp to the northwest

    2190 BC
    -3rd barb by Kyoto killed, spearman becomes elite :)
    -Settler in Kyoto finished, sent down to Osaka to eventually settle in yellow dot
    -The red dot is seen to be mountains with only those two spices as the only two habitable squares. A hill directly adjacent to the barbs is also spotted (along with another spice directly to the north of it), spearman will sit on that hill and farm the barbs while it's convenient.

    2150 BC
    -Road to the horsie is complete, we can now build chariots
    -2 egyptian warriors cross our border heading towards Osaka (!!), I contact them, but am only given the option of demanding their withdrawal or declaring war. Probably hopeless, but maybe they're after something besides Osaka. Probably not.
    -Kyoto dispatches elite spearman to Osaka, but won't get there until 1 turn after the Egyptians. I can't move my settler out of Osaka without leaving it completely undefended versus the warriors (Why was Osaka built on the far side of the river from Kyoto, anyhow?)

    2110 BC
    -Egypt declares war (big surprise)
    -Osaka captured (but not razed due to the temple, thank you Sirian-san!), but the settler is also captured (DAMN DAMN DAMN). Spearman from Kyoto will take another turn to reach Osaka due to its capture.

    2070 BC
    -Tokyo completes a spearman, begins another. I start to move him cross-country towards Osaka.
    -Only one of the two warriors is garrisoned in Osaka and he's injured, good news. The other one is currently one square NW of Osaka
    -Osaka retaken by elite spear, the settler-turned-2 workers are also recovered, but due to the river situation can't escape far enough to avoid recapture, so they are fortified.
    -Our two workers are teamed up to start building a road to Tokyo.

    2030 BC
    -Road to Tokyo started
    -Spearman finished in Kyoto, sent towards Osaka

    1990-1950 BC (forgot to mark what dates correspond to what events)
    -Alphabet learned. If we weren't currently at war, I'd start on Writing, but as it is, I started on Iron Working.
    -Kyoto's cultural influence expands
    -Osaka reinforced by the second spearman. Egyptian warrior remains 1 NW of Osaka.
    -The spearman from Tokyo arrives 1 square away from the warrior. Won't risk an attack, a defensive victory would be preferable.

    1910 BC
    -Great news, MORE BARBS!! This one comes out of the southwest and is headed for Osaka (exactly what Osaka needs right now)
    -Kyoto finishes a spearman, fortifies him, and begins on a chariot
    -Tokyo spearman decides to try to go around the warrior by Osaka and reach the town proper, as more egyptian units are starting to approach the town.

    1870 BC
    -Tokyo spear reaches Osaka
    -Workers finish a section of road, decide to build the final section of the road through the plains with the elephant instead of through the forest.

    1830 BC
    -One of our problems is temporarily solved, the approaching Egyptian warriors kill the approaching barbarian. One is slightly wounded, the second doesn't fight.
    -Third spearman fortified in Osaka

    1790 BC
    -The uninjured warrior from the earlier barb attack attacks osaka, gets killed by the elite spear. The injured one retreats over the border.

    1750 BC (last turn)
    -The warrior NW of Osaka is tempted by the two workers building the road to tokyo, moves NW
    -Kyoto finishes Chariot, places itself between the egyptian warrior and the two workers
    -The road to Tokyo is complete, the two workers retreat to Kyoto
    -Tokyo completes a spearman, fortifies it, starts another.
    -Toyed around with research rates. 90% has us at -1 gold, but we finish Iron Working in 6 turns compared to 9 at 70%


    Wow, what a hectic turn! I didn't get much done, but it is much worse that it could have been (especially when the barbs started popping up by Kyoto). I don't have much in the way of advice for the next Shogun except to figure out why the hell the Egyptians were so aggressive. They MUST be stuffed in there pretty tight to be so jumpy. Somewhere in that fighting they started the pyramids, but one can only wonder if they are very far along with them and what it will do to their military-producing capabilities. We should think about settling that land to the southwest first before the spice town, as there doesn't look to be a whole lot of land left on our rock and we could probably bottle the egyptians up pretty well with another well-fortified town along their border.

    Another cultural expansion by Osaka might also net us the luxury sitting right across their border, as well. Once the fighting settles down we should make a road to it in anticipation of it happening.

    Fight, team, fight! Goooo Nippon! :goodjob:
     
  13. Zed-F

    Zed-F Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2001
    Messages:
    1,776
    A war with Egypt isn't great news, but being militaristic, we may be able to turn it to our advantage. If we go a bit more offensive (judiciously) we may be able to get a Great Leader out of it and either get an army or Pyramids...

    edit: fix grammar problem...
     
  14. Charis

    Charis Realms Beyond

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    1,837
    Location:
    Midwest, USA
    Got it. (Will probably finish tonight in next couple of hours,
    if not, expect it tomorrow eve)

    Egypt declared war???? :eek:

    Gosh, that's too funny -- I was convinced after recent posts that I was being way too paranoid and that we were safe. Gotta get they're clear out of expansion room and see it as do-or-die. Well, it will I hope be die (for them)! ;) It's too bad -- had we been left alone we had a major jumpstart and the strongest beginning I've seen. That's why they call it a gambit, eh?

    I'll see what I can do...
    Charis
     
  15. Carbon_Copy

    Carbon_Copy Elemental

    Joined:
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    623
    Location:
    Indiana, USA
    We don't know which cities are where or how many there are on the egyptian part of our island. The city to the southeast of Osaka has a pretty big cultural border for an AI city (such that we can't see what it is w/o violating Egyptian territory), could it be that we plopped Osaka down directly next to Thebes? I'd get nervous, too, if my capital city suddenly turned into a border town.

    I smell weakness in Egypt's aggression (especially since their opening wave of aggression was two regular warriors and they haven't shown us anything besides regular warriors after that), and if we can assemble a strong enough force to hit that town to the southeast until it falls, we can probably wipe out all those uncouth gaijin soon after and Osaka will be avenged! :soldier:
     
  16. Charis

    Charis Realms Beyond

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    Location:
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    Who could have fortold the vile Egyptians would declare war on us??
    They have attacked the sacred valley!! The Emperor must go! A search
    was made, and in fact a seer, all thought crazy, had fortold this.
    They set out to search for the seer, they wanted him to lead in this time
    of crisis...

    1750 BC (0) - Charisgawa, the seer, is found and placed in power! His
    first thoughts were... "Thank heaven they recaptured Osaka immediately!"
    His second thoughts (after consulting Tokuhistogram) were "They will pay
    for attacking the sacred valley. NO ONE insults Japan this way. We will
    conquer them or die trying. This patch of land is ours, and it shall be
    ours alone! Spearman production? Nay! We're going on the offense, boys!

    Ah, the horses! Their special unit, available NOW, requires them. This
    must be why they are so fierce. We have the horses, and will keep them.
    In six turns, we get swordsmen, *triple* our offensive power, IF we have
    access to iron. This may be key, Charisgawa thinks. Well, we have 3-4 turns
    to decide if any production changes can be made, and if we can go forward
    with Settler.

    1725 BC (1) - Very first action is combat. The Spearman up North takes out the
    Barbarian and his entire camp, with 25 gold in the process, and veteran
    status. We cannot have two fronts, says Charisgawa. The second action is
    also combat, as the foolish Egyptian warrior takes on our mighty chariot.
    Without losing a single hp, we become veteran! (Wow, something to be said for
    a military civilization!)

    Stronger on defense than offense, the spearman of course fortify and wait.
    Right? No!! "That is conventional thinking! Conventional thinking is how
    we got in this mess! How can the Verses not protect those who defend the
    sacred valley?!" Two spearman attack, and losing 1 pt each, slay the warriors.
    Besides, it is rationalized, maybe they would ascend the hills and not
    attack directly?

    1700 BC (2) - Another warrior appears to the SW. The elite spearman climbs
    the hill to intercept. The other drives forward into the dye, and the
    Chariot ascends the hill, and finds... he's right next to Thebes, size 5!

    1675 BC (3) - Do they attack? No! The dogs start a war, but will not fight it!
    We shall show them how to wage war! "So sire, we press the attack??"
    "No, we fortify." "What??" Charisgawa slaps the general hard. "Think man,
    think. Let them come to us, fortified on the hill. Soon a Swordsman may
    join us. Or when they think we will not attack, THEN we shall attack!

    1650 BC (4) - The confused warriors attack, and die to the spearmen.
    The settler is dispatched up north, 5 squares from Kyoto, knight's move from
    the spice, and on the coast. We'll have some jungle clearing to do. There's
    enough room east for a fishing village at some point. Hmm... if they will
    not attack the chariot out of fear, let him scout the area! He finds the
    situation to the SE is grim for the Egyptians, coast line and odd land
    formation RIGHT below them. No room at ALL!

    1625 BC (5) - Movement and scouting, healing.

    1600 BC (6) - We learn Iron working, and study Warrior code. Woo! Two sources
    of Iron, one on the hill next to Osaka, the other in the mountains just
    above Kyoto. Production moved to Barracks, and might switch to Swordsmen
    if we complete roads quickly. SW of Osaka, we hit coast quicker than
    expected, AND a goodie hut.

    1575 BC (7) - Stone cold silence on the Egyptians turn. Hmmm, do they even
    have more than one Spearman in Thebes? What does the hut give us? Mysticism.
    Up north we found Edo, a nasty jungle area, but that can be remedied with
    time. SE, the chariot hits a tiny city with a spearman. The spearman is
    destroyed, but there's one more (at least) -- the city stands.

    1550 BC (8) - Great victory! After our Spearman at Edo takes out a Barbarian,
    the Chariot rider, Tokobengawahur, destroys the last defender at the site
    of Hieropolis. It is not sacred, and is razed to the ground. Tokoben is
    now our most 'elite' troop :p Wouldn't a leader be nice?! Two more workers.
    A settler pops out of Kyoto. Where to? (Which color dot?! :p) He's leaning
    toward the yellow or green dot, and heads to the Osaka area. From what I can
    see, their only two cities left might be Thebes and Memphis (SW of Thebes).

    Cleopatra, now softened up, is questioned. "You are ruthless and bloody,
    Tokugawa. What do you want with me?" (His advisors choke down a snicker)
    "We are ruthless and bloody??? We were happy to be peaceful, but you attacked
    the Sacred Valley. For this you must die." In the process he noted they
    were studying Warrior Code. Too bad, we may have otherwise had a chance to
    learn something before they go extinct.

    1525 BC (9) - Kenjisan, our spearman in Edo, got bold and attacked the Barbarian
    camp. He almost died in the process, but prevailed. We stick with settler
    production. The roads won't bring in the iron in time, and there is no 'rush'
    for Barracks.

    1500 BC (10) - Barracks is finished in Osaka, then another Charioteer is
    trained. Beating the Egyptians with a "sub-optimal" version of their
    special unit seems just and good. Tokoben finds a barbarian camp, and in
    his warlust, attacks it, hoping for glory. (Victory, but no leader)
    Another barbarian comes in from the west -- is it from a jutty or a land
    bridge to another continent?

    1475 BC (11) - Memphis sends an archer OUT of the city to stand next to me,
    instead of attacking. Truly there is dread of our great nation!!
    Hmmm... that's our elite spearman. Do we go with our weak offense against
    his weak defense? Or let his strong offense go against our strong defense.
    Charisgawa says "Attack!!! For the glory of Japan!" Indeed!!! It was for
    glory, for we get...

    A great leader, Tojo!! (This is the first milataristic civ I've played,
    and can't believe how much better the experience gain is. Or maybe this
    has been lucky?) Hmmm, he's not too safe this deep in enemy territory,
    I'm glad their so passive so far ;P

    The spearman on the hill on the iron, however, fortifies vs the approaching
    barbarian warrior. A spearman near Thebes parks on their cattle.

    1450 BC (12) - Cleopatra wants a meeting. She begs. Two words: "Sacred Valley."
    The barwarrior charges the spearman on the hill is slaughtered like a pig.
    No veteran-ness (ok, now I've come to expect it too much)
    Never did take Tokyo off Settler, so out popped another city-to-be-born.
    It is decreed that Temples must be built very soon in all cities to commemorate
    how we were watched over! Warrior Code finishes, now we get to study Writing.
    It should take about 12 turns. Tojo and the spearman backup a step, into
    neutral territory, to fortify and heal.

    1425 BC (13) - The road to the iron is complete, and Osaka switches to a Swordsman.
    The West edge where the Bar came from is now seen to be a tiny jutty. If it weren't
    just outside the reach of the game it would be the perfect spot for a fishing
    village. (Maybe there's fish there?) Our two captured workers are now on the
    run from a restless bar. It will run around the lake until Tokoben can help.

    1400 BC (14) - Move back next to Memphis, with Tojo's father spearman and Tokoben.
    An archer goes for the fortified spearman on the cattle, helping him
    become a veteran :p

    1375 BC (15) - Satsuma is founded in the spice village near the mountains of
    Kyoto. Not prime ground, but a good spot near Kyoto. Kagoshima is founded
    west of Thebes, NW of Memphis, SW of Osaka. (Green dot spot)
    Nara is founded not far NW of that (yellow dot). In a nerve wracking
    battle, Tokoben the Charioteer defeats a Memphis spearman (going down to 2 hp).

    1350 BC (16) - "Our people want to build the forbidden palace sire!"
    Gasp? Already? This is sad news to Charisgawa, for he forsees several more
    cities to be built by the sacred kingdom. The Eastern jutty camp is cleared
    for another 25 gold. No fish.

    1325 BC (17) - Our elite spearman easily defends vs a barbaric horseman and
    warrior, as they've stepped back to heal up.

    1300 BC (18) - Another horseman barbarian impales himself (although knocking
    3 hp off our spearman) Our leader Tojo, takes the chance now to make a
    break for it, toward Osaka. An army of Swordsmen is one choice,
    or hurrying something nice. I'll leave that to the next leader,
    perhaps with thoughts from others in game before committing ;P
    Saving for a long time is a bad choice, as we can't get a second leader
    at one time, and we have several elite units in frequent combat. (If
    nothing else, those bar invasions might spell more leaders before long)

    1275 BC (19) - Movement and healing.

    1250 BC (20) - Not much, Swordsman gets into position on hill over Thebes.
    After one last round of healing, Tokoben chariot and spearman can move
    into the forest next to Memphis and put and end to that city.

    With this, Charisgawa grows weary and says it is time for another to lead.
    He cautions the next leader not to be weak. Cleopatra shouts "Horse Riding for
    Peace!" Do not allow peace. They attacked the sacred, undefended valley.
    They must die. (If they first give us gold and Horse Riding... well... I
    leave that up to you.) With swordsmen production and a barracks in Osaka,
    and no Iron for them, victory is assured.

    Good luck! (especially to Zed, who is up next!)
    Charis
     
  17. Charis

    Charis Realms Beyond

    Joined:
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    Below is a pic of the Southern lands, when the great
    leader Tojo emerged. To the East in the picture you'll see a
    road and two workers. That was where Hieropolis was, and
    they're preparing the land for our future cities down there :)

    Charis
     
  18. Carbon_Copy

    Carbon_Copy Elemental

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    623
    Location:
    Indiana, USA
    Firstly, a big Kudos to the great warlord Charisgawa for his success versus the Egyptians.

    Now, as to what we should do with Tojo (raised from the first regular spearman we trained, IIRC), I don't think we're going to need (or want) an army right now. We're alone on this island now, for all intents and purposes. Memphis is scheduled to fall on the next turn, and we won't need an army to just take Thebes. We've just about explored the width and breadth of our rock (and once our vision radius encompasses it, barbarians will stop appearing), so it's high time we quit this joint and discovered what the rest of the world is up to.

    So which wonder should we rush? I think we should pick between the Great Library and the Lighthouse, leaning towards the Lighthouse. The Pyramids are still not built, but they won't be terribly useful to us except as culture (we have plenty of time to build granaries now, there's not much room left for expansion at home and it helps us not at all for overseas expansion if we were so inclined). The Hanging Gardens are also a choice, but the people of Nippon have access to no fewer than three distinct domestic luxuries (or will once Thebes is gone), and the effect of each grows once we build marketplaces. The Library will give us free tech (and denies it to the AI civs who would otherwise have it), but the Lighthouse will help us get off this island and into the greater world community (and who knows, with the current research line, it might still be possible to build one normally and rush the second, but we won't know for sure until we meet some more of our neighbors ;) ).

    Besides, if we're going to make an army, why bother with swordsmen? If we want an army, save him and build an army of Samurai. :ninja:
     
  19. Sirian

    Sirian Civ Map Programmer

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2001
    Messages:
    3,651
    Location:
    Pennsylvania, USA
    Let us sit by the campfire and sing the song of Shogun Carbon Copy, Warlord of Vengeance, Protector of the Empire. His wisdom in recognizing the betrayal of our treaty by the cowardly Egyptian Gaijen and moving to reinforce (then, out of necessity, to retake and avenge) Osaka, did show him to be the Second Prophet, long awaited, to bring balance to our great civilization and Reveal the Other Truth of the Mother to our people.

    For while we praise Her Name, let us also manifest Her Strength in human form upon the earth. We must strike down all who would blaspheme Her by making war upon her chosen people, which is an unholy act, and to prepare ourselves for such holy war by the training and arming of our strongest men in the arts of warfare. So it is sung, so let it be known.

    The Verses are again witnessed to be the Truth! For was it the vision of Siriansan that led us to trust the Egyptians too far? No! We had not even met these wicked people yet at the time of Siriansan's passing. Some of our later warlords, interpreting the Verses in their religious fervor to appease the Great Mother and expand our population, did not yet know the Other Truth, that the ways of Righteous War are as vital to our people as those of pious worship, gentle farming, and hard work. Their assurances of the safety of our people outside the sacred valley have been shown to be false visions by the Second Prophet!

    But surely the liberation of Osaka from its brief sufferance at the hands of wicked Egypt is manifest proof of the glory of the Second Prophet and his status as chosen of the Mother. And yea, though he did not compose poetic Verses for us to sing in his name, as did Siriansan, the music of his half of the Truth can be heard in the song of bronze, as the clash of axe on shield, and spear into flesh, sings to the hearts of all Nippon!

    Many have questioned our defeat at Osaka. Does blame lie upon warlords who urged peaceful tilling of our lands at the expense of military preparation? Does it lie in the failure of our outnumbered forces to hold off the sneak attack of the Egyptians? Or does blame lie not with us at all, but upon the head of Egypt, whose greed did lead them to covet our lands and make violence upon us? We must not trust the Gaijen! This is the lesson, as spelled out by the great warlord Charisgawa, whose songs of the Second Prophet shall be sung in our temples for all time! For it was Carbon Copy himself who led our elite warriors in the raid to liberate Osaka, whose military brilliance did save the day. Who but Nippon might recover from such a blow? Who might suffer wrongs so great, losses so terrible, yet only be angered to pour forth in rage from their sacred valley to instruct the treacherous Gaijen in the true meaning of warfare? Who is made stronger by defeat? Who prevails in the end? Who is favored of the Mother??? Nippon!

    By Verse and by Arms, the Sun rises on Nippon. :queen:

    Sleep now, and tomorrow we will sing of the glories of our war upon the Gaijen.
     
  20. Sirian

    Sirian Civ Map Programmer

    Joined:
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    3,651
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    I agree with Carbon that a wonder should be rushed. The advantage of a leader THIS early is simply too good to pass up, as 400 shields "for free" so early is staggering.

    Consider the Pyramids. Consider them for three vital reasons:

    Firstly, by small map standards, this is a large continent. We have room for what, nearly a dozen cities here? That is already beyond pushing the number easily sustainable on a small map, without tripping over into high corruption. So it's not as if we will find another large continent, fill it up, and not benefit from the Pyramids there.

    Secondly, the growth curve impact would be enormous, on an already strong game. All but two of our cities now are still extremely small, and we haven't built granaries in any of them. Even as we have made war, we've kept building settlers, we've got seven cities going and about to get an eighth, not counting ones we may capture. Mad population explosion! Even at 60 shields per (and remember the maintenance cost, also saved, thus speeding our research) and corruption plaguing future cities to the south, how many thousand years would pass before we had all those granaries built. Ten granaries is 600 shields. Using our leader NOW, we can get the benefit of that, without any maintenance cost, get it NOW and woo, the math of that compared to the minor details of my writeup about pros and cons of building on a wheat just pales.

    Thirdly, and perhaps most importantly, is the impact of denying the pyramids to the AI's. That's the best reason ever to build the pyramids, as more often than not, the civ who does rises to be the prime contender -- witness Persia in RBD1, built the Pyramids and was able to build TWO IMMORTALS PER TOWN extra instead of granaries (on average, not even counting growth curve benefits). And remember, the AI's usually all spend shields on building the pyramids, and one of them gets it, while others may get runner-up wonders. The benefits of denying the Pyramids to the AI shocked me in my large map expansionist game, prototype of the one I'm contemplating at RBD forum.

    The Pyramids are not the end all, and we don't know how the other four civs in the game are faring, but the choices are Pyramids, Oracle, Army, or sit and wait. We could build the Heroic Epic if we had a successful army, but we don't need the army militarily speaking, and it would take too long to build the Epic to benefit from it vs the Egyptians anyway. Maybe if there were other civs around to make war against, an army of three swords would be quite tempting (and unstoppable), but as this looks now, I would go Pyramids, and do it in Kyoto where they would be the most secure.

    There is even, I suppose, a chance of finding the rest of the civs once we get mapmaking, and go ahead and poprush horsies and swarm over them all and conquer the world in the ancient age or early middle ages. The Pyramids would certainly aid any despotic whipping fury -- unless we are comfy in building up our island, and don't want to end the game that quickly even if we have the chance. Moot point unless we can reach all the other civs without having to cross any ocean, though.

    Good luck, Zed. Your desire to play Japan on a small map, and assigning me to go first (with this rich starting spot and our ambitious gambit) has shaped all that has come since. We have faith in you! (Now if only your computer holds up... :eek: )


    - Sirian


    EDIT: Charis: players can only get leaders fighting the AI civs. Barbarians are a good way to get some early elite units, though, or upgrade regulars to veteran -- at the occasional cost of some losses, albeit.
     

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