RBD12 v2.0 - Roman Conquest!
- Thread starter Sirian
- Start date
Jaffa Tamarin
Monkey Cult
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2001
- Messages
- 570
I'm gone until Wednesday.
Ok, here's the skinny:
I checked into building a FP in Heliopolis... turns out it was tragically corrupt. Couldn't build FP there without a leader so I started the FP in Thebes. Notice we still have some resistors in Thebes so I send in a Knight to quell them.
Military:
War with Aztecs... umm, we're down to smoke and mirrors here, guys. Aztecs have size 7+ cities and I bet a ton of troops holed up in Tenochitlan. It's going to be tough to root them all out withut losing a ton of troops in the process, and I see we aren't building any reinforcements. Nevertheless I agree the infrastructure push is needed.
We quickly take the westernmost Aztec city with a couple knights wounded. I considered razing it but we need somewhere for our troops to heal up and we captured this town with an intact barracks. Some of our knights already on the island are wounded so I send them back to town to recuperate. I also capture Hispalis again with a spare Knight while I'm waiting for our troops to heal. During the capture of Hispalis we get a leader! Excellent, I send him back to Heliopolis where he makes an FP. Productivity on Egypt is boosted dramatically, and someday SE Azteca will be useful as well, once we've pacified the natives.
Thebes switches to market (I should probably have built a granary and temple first, but I didn't want to waste the FP shields.)
As soon as our guys heal up I get them the heck out of dodge; in fact at this point I decide not to leave any knights in a town unless they need to heal up. The possibilities for flips here are pretty bad as we've already seen, and I can't afford to have knights sitting around quelling resistors anyway. In fact this turned out to be a good plan as both the westernmost city and Hispalis flip during my turn and I have to recapture them
but at least our losses were minimal (in one case, zero).
Finally at the end of my turn we get to the assault on Tenochitlan. We almost don't have enough troops to take them out; there's a couple spears and about 4 or 5 pikes there, and we only have about 8 knights and a pair of legions to take them on with. We lose both legions and a knight or 2, but we manage to wear them down over the course of 2 turns and take the city, which we raze. No way we're holding that puppy... we get 5 workers out of the deal, and flip pressure on our remaining cities should be reduced, especially in SE Azteca since their new capital is in the NW. We also got a second leader out of the battle, who is now at Helipolis awaiting orders.
Our troops desperately need to heal up and we're out of throwaway and garrison troops. In order to finish off Azteca and Egypt we need to be cautious with our remaining troops and get some reinforcements over there ASAP. We want to ELIMINATE Aztecs and Egypt so that we stop this cursed flipping! We can always trade lux, resources, and cash for tech, so forget extortion for now. Our base at Calix___ has now built a barracks and needs to have a temple rushed to further reduce the flip possibility. It also needs to be starved down to 1.
Domestic:
Egypt has lots of food but not a lot of production. This is actually ok, since what we want are BIG CITIES to boost our income. We can then use the cash to rush-buy improvements. Thebes actually has a decent amount of production since there are several mountains around as well as lots of high-food irrigated grasslands. It still doesn't have a culture source but that can be remedied quickly enough -- it needs a granary and a temple. Elephantine will one day be in the same boat. West Egypt is all about food for growing big. I want to emphasize that cash spent rushing improvements in west Egypt is a very good idea, since those cities are low corruption and will pay back on any investments we make there many times over! We're currently making 118 gpt and this will grow as we keep rushing stuff close to our FP.
The Roman continent is shaping up pretty well, and we have constructed several aqueducts and markets. Some of our cities need harbours so they can get some coast tiles going for more food. I finally got around to founding the fishing village east of Rome. Soon we should be in a position where some of our main core cities can start concentrating on military for a while.
Diplomatic/Research:
We're quite a bit behind on tech; some of our rivals are nearly into the Industrial Age. I traded some of our spare lux for Chemistry, Economics (for Wall Street) and Navigation (for ocean travel/trade) but we're still quite a ways behind. We should seriously look into trying to catch up soonish so that once the AIs get into the Industrial Age we can take advantage of rails etc. Saltpeter seems to be in short supply with some of our rivals as well as our lux so that's something to barter as well, bearing in mind that we don't want to do too much of that if we're planning on targetting that particular AI civ anytime soon. Oh, and we're at peace with England again.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/rbd12-romans-850ad.zip
I checked into building a FP in Heliopolis... turns out it was tragically corrupt. Couldn't build FP there without a leader so I started the FP in Thebes. Notice we still have some resistors in Thebes so I send in a Knight to quell them.
Military:
War with Aztecs... umm, we're down to smoke and mirrors here, guys. Aztecs have size 7+ cities and I bet a ton of troops holed up in Tenochitlan. It's going to be tough to root them all out withut losing a ton of troops in the process, and I see we aren't building any reinforcements. Nevertheless I agree the infrastructure push is needed.
We quickly take the westernmost Aztec city with a couple knights wounded. I considered razing it but we need somewhere for our troops to heal up and we captured this town with an intact barracks. Some of our knights already on the island are wounded so I send them back to town to recuperate. I also capture Hispalis again with a spare Knight while I'm waiting for our troops to heal. During the capture of Hispalis we get a leader! Excellent, I send him back to Heliopolis where he makes an FP. Productivity on Egypt is boosted dramatically, and someday SE Azteca will be useful as well, once we've pacified the natives.
Thebes switches to market (I should probably have built a granary and temple first, but I didn't want to waste the FP shields.)As soon as our guys heal up I get them the heck out of dodge; in fact at this point I decide not to leave any knights in a town unless they need to heal up. The possibilities for flips here are pretty bad as we've already seen, and I can't afford to have knights sitting around quelling resistors anyway. In fact this turned out to be a good plan as both the westernmost city and Hispalis flip during my turn and I have to recapture them
but at least our losses were minimal (in one case, zero). Finally at the end of my turn we get to the assault on Tenochitlan. We almost don't have enough troops to take them out; there's a couple spears and about 4 or 5 pikes there, and we only have about 8 knights and a pair of legions to take them on with. We lose both legions and a knight or 2, but we manage to wear them down over the course of 2 turns and take the city, which we raze. No way we're holding that puppy...
we get 5 workers out of the deal, and flip pressure on our remaining cities should be reduced, especially in SE Azteca since their new capital is in the NW. We also got a second leader out of the battle, who is now at Helipolis awaiting orders.Our troops desperately need to heal up and we're out of throwaway and garrison troops. In order to finish off Azteca and Egypt we need to be cautious with our remaining troops and get some reinforcements over there ASAP. We want to ELIMINATE Aztecs and Egypt so that we stop this cursed flipping! We can always trade lux, resources, and cash for tech, so forget extortion for now. Our base at Calix___ has now built a barracks and needs to have a temple rushed to further reduce the flip possibility. It also needs to be starved down to 1.
Domestic:
Egypt has lots of food but not a lot of production. This is actually ok, since what we want are BIG CITIES to boost our income. We can then use the cash to rush-buy improvements. Thebes actually has a decent amount of production since there are several mountains around as well as lots of high-food irrigated grasslands. It still doesn't have a culture source but that can be remedied quickly enough -- it needs a granary and a temple. Elephantine will one day be in the same boat. West Egypt is all about food for growing big. I want to emphasize that cash spent rushing improvements in west Egypt is a very good idea, since those cities are low corruption and will pay back on any investments we make there many times over! We're currently making 118 gpt and this will grow as we keep rushing stuff close to our FP.
The Roman continent is shaping up pretty well, and we have constructed several aqueducts and markets. Some of our cities need harbours so they can get some coast tiles going for more food. I finally got around to founding the fishing village east of Rome. Soon we should be in a position where some of our main core cities can start concentrating on military for a while.
Diplomatic/Research:
We're quite a bit behind on tech; some of our rivals are nearly into the Industrial Age. I traded some of our spare lux for Chemistry, Economics (for Wall Street) and Navigation (for ocean travel/trade) but we're still quite a ways behind. We should seriously look into trying to catch up soonish so that once the AIs get into the Industrial Age we can take advantage of rails etc. Saltpeter seems to be in short supply with some of our rivals as well as our lux so that's something to barter as well, bearing in mind that we don't want to do too much of that if we're planning on targetting that particular AI civ anytime soon. Oh, and we're at peace with England again.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/rbd12-romans-850ad.zip
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2001
- Messages
- 19,865
(0) 850 AD - We review the world situation.
Egypt is down to just 1 city
Available techs - Music Theory, with the size of the landmass, I will pass.
Democracy, not much value in mostly war mode with a non-relgious civ.
Metallurgy - This one a WANT.
Physics - Need this to leave the Middle ages.
Veto - Switch Veii / Cumae to musketman - Why build an obsolote Legionary?
I am stuck finishing an incomplete turn.
All troops but 1 are healed, wake up the stack in Calix...
I HATE THIS GAME! - Turn zero is not completed and Texcoco flips back to the Aztecs.
(1) 860 AD - Smith's is rushed - you don't have to tell me twice about a wonder
I switch Neapolis to settler and RUSH it. I plan to raze these Aztec cities.
Cumae switched to settler.
Our Elite knight RAZES Texcoco - flip this.
(I) No surprise, Smith's is ours.
(2) 870 AD - I really hate to keep ANY Aztec cities, but I can't resist owning Leo's.
Instant Starvation in Tlatelolco.
(I) Spices have added $3/turn to keep importing them.
China is building Shakespeare
(3) 880 AD - We RAZE Teot - flip you Aztecs.
(I)WTH - Hispalis flips to the Aztecs - This is OBSCENCE - There were NO overlapping borders.
Iroquois start Bach.
(4) 890 AD - Hispalis created a Demonic spearman, and we lose a knight.
I may regret this, but I capture Xoch...
+2 workers, +1 catapult.
One city to go.
(I) English start Shakespeare.
(5) 900 AD - Resting the weary troops.
$150, Furs, Ivory get us Metallurgy from Babylon.
(I) Greece lands a lone swordsman by Veii - I hope this isn't a sign of trouble.
(6) 910 AD - Most of our galley are know Caravels.
Greece is builing Shakespeare.
(I) The silks supply goes - the frelling greeks declare war.
The lone Greek swordsman commits suicide at Veii.
Babylon can offer an MPP
(7) 920 AD - Viroconium is founded - we have another source of Ivory and SaltPeter.
Since we have 5 extra incense, I trade one to the Iroqoius from Music Theory, wm, $6.
Three luxuries and $125 prys Physics from China.
I rush the temple at Tlatelolco - border expansion will give us another fur.
I can't spot any cities that look like the will revolt due to the loss of Silks.
I can't wait for Play the World
(I)
(8) 930 AD - Hispalis is captured and...
(I) Iroquois start Shakespeare.
(9) 940 AD - Zzzzzzzz.
(10) 950 AD - Lugdunum is formed - I general hate building on a wheat square, but this is the square to cover the center of former Aztec land.
I can finally buy ToG gravity for a more reasonable price - Ivory, $285 gets it from England.
Summary - Finally, a turn that feels good - the Aztecs are DEAD
We are still behind in tech - The next player can decide on Magnetism for about $425.
We need more military.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/RBD-24-950AD.zip
I dont know where I got that name from??? [blush]
@Sirian - did you change the culture flip at all?
I know you said map only, but I have NEVER suffered with it this bad before.
Egypt is down to just 1 city
Available techs - Music Theory, with the size of the landmass, I will pass.
Democracy, not much value in mostly war mode with a non-relgious civ.
Metallurgy - This one a WANT.
Physics - Need this to leave the Middle ages.
Veto - Switch Veii / Cumae to musketman - Why build an obsolote Legionary?
I am stuck finishing an incomplete turn.
All troops but 1 are healed, wake up the stack in Calix...
I HATE THIS GAME! - Turn zero is not completed and Texcoco flips back to the Aztecs.
(1) 860 AD - Smith's is rushed - you don't have to tell me twice about a wonder
I switch Neapolis to settler and RUSH it. I plan to raze these Aztec cities.
Cumae switched to settler.
Our Elite knight RAZES Texcoco - flip this.
(I) No surprise, Smith's is ours.
(2) 870 AD - I really hate to keep ANY Aztec cities, but I can't resist owning Leo's.
Instant Starvation in Tlatelolco.
(I) Spices have added $3/turn to keep importing them.
China is building Shakespeare
(3) 880 AD - We RAZE Teot - flip you Aztecs.
(I)WTH - Hispalis flips to the Aztecs - This is OBSCENCE - There were NO overlapping borders.
Iroquois start Bach.
(4) 890 AD - Hispalis created a Demonic spearman, and we lose a knight.
I may regret this, but I capture Xoch...
+2 workers, +1 catapult.
One city to go.
(I) English start Shakespeare.
(5) 900 AD - Resting the weary troops.
$150, Furs, Ivory get us Metallurgy from Babylon.
(I) Greece lands a lone swordsman by Veii - I hope this isn't a sign of trouble.
(6) 910 AD - Most of our galley are know Caravels.
Greece is builing Shakespeare.
(I) The silks supply goes - the frelling greeks declare war.
The lone Greek swordsman commits suicide at Veii.
Babylon can offer an MPP(7) 920 AD - Viroconium is founded - we have another source of Ivory and SaltPeter.
Since we have 5 extra incense, I trade one to the Iroqoius from Music Theory, wm, $6.
Three luxuries and $125 prys Physics from China.
I rush the temple at Tlatelolco - border expansion will give us another fur.
I can't spot any cities that look like the will revolt due to the loss of Silks.
I can't wait for Play the World
(I)
(8) 930 AD - Hispalis is captured and...
(I) Iroquois start Shakespeare.
(9) 940 AD - Zzzzzzzz.
(10) 950 AD - Lugdunum is formed - I general hate building on a wheat square, but this is the square to cover the center of former Aztec land.
I can finally buy ToG gravity for a more reasonable price - Ivory, $285 gets it from England.
Summary - Finally, a turn that feels good - the Aztecs are DEAD
We are still behind in tech - The next player can decide on Magnetism for about $425.
We need more military.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/RBD-24-950AD.zip
I dont know where I got that name from??? [blush]
@Sirian - did you change the culture flip at all?
I know you said map only, but I have NEVER suffered with it this bad before.
Sullla
Patrician Roman Dictator
Nice job! With our closest and largest rivals out of the way, the speed of conquest should start to pick up now. 
We need to polish off Egypt as well, and then we can start concentrating on another civ... like, say the Greeks?
I always find it amusing when some AI civ paints a big bulls-eye on themselves...
EDIT: Incidentally, the Legion was because we still can use behind-the-lines MPs and garrison troops. They are not meant as front-line combatants anymoree but are still useful in a support role -- not to mention cheap. They also help boost our unit count so the AI thinks we have a strong military and is less likely to pull surprise attacks like the Greeks did. Moreover, other than muskets which cost twice as much to build, they are our best defenders until Rifles.
I always find it amusing when some AI civ paints a big bulls-eye on themselves...
EDIT: Incidentally, the Legion was because we still can use behind-the-lines MPs and garrison troops. They are not meant as front-line combatants anymoree but are still useful in a support role -- not to mention cheap. They also help boost our unit count so the AI thinks we have a strong military and is less likely to pull surprise attacks like the Greeks did. Moreover, other than muskets which cost twice as much to build, they are our best defenders until Rifles.
meldor
Deity
Don't stop now.....ship the troops to a new island and wipe it clean.....no sense in pausing for rest.
Well, Meldor, right now our troops aren't sufficient to take on a new island without some reinforcements first. Especially if our new target has cannons, cavalry, or (soon) rifles.
There will be a certain amount of time required to gather and redeploy our troops, however, in which interval we will have an opportunity to replenish our forces to some degree. We may also be able to modernize our army during that interval if Military Traditions and/or Nationalism becomes available. Whether that is enough, or needs to be augmented with an additional delay to build further reinforcements, remains to be seen.
There will be a certain amount of time required to gather and redeploy our troops, however, in which interval we will have an opportunity to replenish our forces to some degree. We may also be able to modernize our army during that interval if Military Traditions and/or Nationalism becomes available. Whether that is enough, or needs to be augmented with an additional delay to build further reinforcements, remains to be seen.
Sirian
Designer, Mohawk Games
None of the rules edited, LK. These are the standard rules.
As for why so many flips, it may have to do with the small map, or it may have to do with a combo of small map AND extra opponents for a map of that size.
Or... it could also be monumentally BAD luck, too. Those who understand statistics know that odd streaks happen, they just don't happen very often.
Speaking of which, are you thinking about trying your hand at the RBCiv Epics games? Is the Emperor difficulty leading you to shy away? That first game has been a lot of fun, Lee, so maybe if you find yourself on the road as you do and none of your SG's "up", I hope you'll give it a shot. If you don't have fun, you can bark at me and make me feel guilty for coaxing you.
RBCiv Epics - Tournament Homepage
- Sirian
As for why so many flips, it may have to do with the small map, or it may have to do with a combo of small map AND extra opponents for a map of that size.
Or... it could also be monumentally BAD luck, too. Those who understand statistics know that odd streaks happen, they just don't happen very often.
Speaking of which, are you thinking about trying your hand at the RBCiv Epics games? Is the Emperor difficulty leading you to shy away? That first game has been a lot of fun, Lee, so maybe if you find yourself on the road as you do and none of your SG's "up", I hope you'll give it a shot. If you don't have fun, you can bark at me and make me feel guilty for coaxing you.
RBCiv Epics - Tournament Homepage
- Sirian
950AD (0) - Everything looks good. I'm going to shuffle some troops around on the Aztec island and leave Lugdunum undefended so we can pull another knight to the invasion of greece. I decide to wait on Magnetism hoping the Iroqouis get it soon and we can trade them for it as we have two techs they lack.
960AD (1) - I rush a few knights for the invasion of greece. I think we can do it without waiting. I also upgrade all our catapults to cannnon. I sell economics to the Egyptians for 2gpt, 8 gold and their map. Might as well milk them.
970AD (2) - I'm sending a legion and knight ahead to scout out the greeks and disrupt their iron and horses if possible. This will also allow me to judge the size of their forces. Egypt and Greece sign a trade embargo against us.
980AD (3) - Our troops land on greece. They are using Hopilites for defense. We can take them. Greece sends a swordsman to attack our troops on a mountain and we defeat it without taking a hit.
990AD (4) - The greeks draft a rifleman so I guess they hadn't upgraded yet.
1000AD (5) - Our troops will pillage the greeks iron next turn. We trade furs and Theory of Gravity for Magnetism and 1 gold to the iroquois and advance to the industrial age. I trade china 18gpt and 511 gold for steam power as at max it would take us ten turns at a cost of 210 gpt. We have 5 coal! Everyone seems to have traded for it coal already or doesn't know the technology. We trade steam power to the english for 11gpt, democracy, 23gold and their world map making. We trade metallurgy for free artistry (why not) to the iroquois. England needs coal. We can trade for nationalism but I'm going to wait until more of the AI civs have it because those that don't are completely strapped for cash.
1010AD (6) - Lots of ship movement. Greeks will make peace if we want. Ha! I trade the english coal, 27gpt, and 5 gold for Nationalism. We start research industrialization at 40 turns by making a specialist in a pointless Aztec city. We upgrade 9 musketmen for 180 gold.
1020AD (7) - Ship movement. Building a killer attack again for Sulla...
1030AD (8) - Bunch of troops land near Thermophylae. Going to cannon bombard and if it goes while I'm going to take the city next turn.
1040AD (9) - Both Cannons hit taking 1 hp from a conscript rifleman and hopilite. I kill two hopilites defending Thermophylae and I'm going to try and take it even thought it has a rifleman defender. We capture Thermophylae with an elite knight going down to 1. Cannon's pay off BIG TIME because it reduced the rifleman to 1 health. I go ahead and keep the city, I'm only going to keep one legion in it. We head towards Athens. I trade nationalism to Iroquois for 3gpt, 15gold. China has industrialization.
1050AD (10) - Babs maybe heading towards our land with a frigate. I see greece actually move hopilites out of Athens! What an idiot. I have 4 cannons, 5 knights and a legionary poised to attack next turn. Hopefully Sulla is as lucky with the cannons as I. If we survive with little casualties then greece will fall in a couple of turns. Don't raze anything we should just take the cities intact. We can trade Gems, Incense, 680gold, WM, or Gems, Incense, 30gpt, 8 gold, WM (I would do GPT) for Industrilization to the Babs but I leave that to the next leader to decide. Worker in jungle was me hitting shift J rather than ctrl J..
Kill the Greeks
960AD (1) - I rush a few knights for the invasion of greece. I think we can do it without waiting. I also upgrade all our catapults to cannnon. I sell economics to the Egyptians for 2gpt, 8 gold and their map. Might as well milk them.
970AD (2) - I'm sending a legion and knight ahead to scout out the greeks and disrupt their iron and horses if possible. This will also allow me to judge the size of their forces. Egypt and Greece sign a trade embargo against us.
980AD (3) - Our troops land on greece. They are using Hopilites for defense. We can take them. Greece sends a swordsman to attack our troops on a mountain and we defeat it without taking a hit.
990AD (4) - The greeks draft a rifleman so I guess they hadn't upgraded yet.
1000AD (5) - Our troops will pillage the greeks iron next turn. We trade furs and Theory of Gravity for Magnetism and 1 gold to the iroquois and advance to the industrial age. I trade china 18gpt and 511 gold for steam power as at max it would take us ten turns at a cost of 210 gpt. We have 5 coal! Everyone seems to have traded for it coal already or doesn't know the technology. We trade steam power to the english for 11gpt, democracy, 23gold and their world map making. We trade metallurgy for free artistry (why not) to the iroquois. England needs coal. We can trade for nationalism but I'm going to wait until more of the AI civs have it because those that don't are completely strapped for cash.
1010AD (6) - Lots of ship movement. Greeks will make peace if we want. Ha! I trade the english coal, 27gpt, and 5 gold for Nationalism. We start research industrialization at 40 turns by making a specialist in a pointless Aztec city. We upgrade 9 musketmen for 180 gold.
1020AD (7) - Ship movement. Building a killer attack again for Sulla...
1030AD (8) - Bunch of troops land near Thermophylae. Going to cannon bombard and if it goes while I'm going to take the city next turn.
1040AD (9) - Both Cannons hit taking 1 hp from a conscript rifleman and hopilite. I kill two hopilites defending Thermophylae and I'm going to try and take it even thought it has a rifleman defender. We capture Thermophylae with an elite knight going down to 1. Cannon's pay off BIG TIME because it reduced the rifleman to 1 health. I go ahead and keep the city, I'm only going to keep one legion in it. We head towards Athens. I trade nationalism to Iroquois for 3gpt, 15gold. China has industrialization.
1050AD (10) - Babs maybe heading towards our land with a frigate. I see greece actually move hopilites out of Athens! What an idiot. I have 4 cannons, 5 knights and a legionary poised to attack next turn. Hopefully Sulla is as lucky with the cannons as I. If we survive with little casualties then greece will fall in a couple of turns. Don't raze anything we should just take the cities intact. We can trade Gems, Incense, 680gold, WM, or Gems, Incense, 30gpt, 8 gold, WM (I would do GPT) for Industrilization to the Babs but I leave that to the next leader to decide. Worker in jungle was me hitting shift J rather than ctrl J..
Kill the Greeks
Sullla
Patrician Roman Dictator
I've got it, but I've still got to finish RBCiv Epic#1 tonight. So don't expect this turn until sometime tomorrow.
So don't expect this turn until sometime tomorrow.
Sullla
Patrician Roman Dictator
(0) Ummm... yeah. Our best attacking unit at this time is still the knight. What happened to Cavalry? I immediately start research on military tradition; we can have it in 12 turns at +12 g/turn. I would much rather have cavalry than industrialization at this point. Speaking of which... I like having Wall Street, so I switch one or two cities over to banks so we get 5 of them. This will more than pay for itself. We will have 5 banks in 12 turns. I'm very surprised to see decent shields on Aztec island; I though that would all be completely corrupt. Well, it probably will become so as we exceed the optimum city limit drastically...
(1) For reasons I can't understand, the Greeks do NOT draft any rifles in their capitol (?) Maybe they don't have nationalism... no, they definitely do. Oh well, good for us. My recent string of terrible luck continues as we are unable to take Athens (sigh). I just am not cut out to be a warmonger. I get Industrialization from Hammurabi for 390g and two luxuries. That was by far the best deal out there. Another assault on Athens will take place next turn.
(2) Whatever the case before, the Greeks have upgraded to rifles now. 3 out of 4 cannons miss (of course... I stand by my resolve that pre-artillery bombardment is a waste of shields) but since I'm in a kinda silly mood I attack anyway. The result: our knights take no losses and we take the city.
Well, if that doesn't show that the combat system in Civ3 is heavily dependent on luck, nothing does. Our knights are beat up, but I decide to press the attack on Sparta instead of waiting and healing up first. I don't want to give them time to draft more rifles.
(3) Now this is too funny:
We are now at war with the mighty Zulus.
That ought to be difficult... Alex has not upgraded his hoplites in Sparta to rifles...and we get a great leader Maximus in the first battle! Nice! There were quite a few hoplites in Sparta, but the next to last knight we get produces this message:
Always my favorite to get. It was close there, as all 5 elite knights are at 1 or 2hp. Now the question is what to use the leader on? I have a choice between Magellan, Newton, Shakespeare, Bach's and Women's Suffrage. Let's see: Bach's only covers one continent so it's out, Newton and Shakespeare are laughable, and we would build Suffrage only for denial value to the AI civs. Call me crazy, but Magellan's is most useful to us in this scenario. Maximus heads back to the main island to build it (more secure area).
(4) We could really use another luxury, as our deal for spices just wore off, but at the moment it's too expensive to buy them. However, we will have silks as soon as Athens' borders expand. Unfortunately we can't rush it because the Greeks are still resisting us there (?) Fortunately, Sparta never went into resistance so I rush the temple there. We will have another luxury in 5 turns. Using the ship movement trick that is an exploit in the RB Epics, I get Maximus to Rome where he rushes Magellans. (This is the first, and probably only time I will ever get the chance to use this!) It's still going to take us some time to reach Zululand though.
(5) Uneventful; I upgraded 5 caravals to galleons though. With 5 movement thanks to Magellan's, we will be able to island-hop with ease. I can also pull back research without delaying a turn, so I do so.
(6) More movement.
(7) *Sigh* I guess I almost should have expected this:
Worst luck EVER on culture flips. I have never seen it this bad in all my other games of Civ3. Maybe it's the tiny map? We had Sparta for only 4 turns before it flipped. From now on, we really need to raze EVERYTHING. Sadly, we lost the two elite knights that were still healing in the city. And we also lost the 200g it cost to rush a temple in there. Grrr...
(8) Temple rushed in Athens to get the silks inside our borders. Let's hope ATHENS doesn't flip on us... Cannons will land and start bombarding Zimbabwe next turn.
(9) Zimbabwe is defended by pikes. There are also a lot of archers and Impis running around on the island... The AI really doesn't do well with a OCC. Let's see how Shaka deals with my task force of 6 cannons, 2 rifles, and 4 knights.
(10) Wacky - we lose 2 sources of iron in the same turn, and one pops back in. Shaka has responded by pulling most of his Impis back into Zimbabwe. We discover Military Tradition; all research turned OFF again. 3 out of 4 cannons hit against defending pikes. Unfortunately, there are at least 5 defenders in Zimbabwe... First two pikes die with no damage taken, the next two force our knights to retreat with no damage. I am pulling the hurt knights back to be upgraded to cavs.
Current orders: We're low on military. We need more cavalry above all, but I don't think we'll be able to overrun another civ anytime soon. Infantry are coming soon, and to take them out we will need lots of artillery (NOT cannon) support. In two turns, we will be able to build Wall Street, afterward keep treasury above 1000g. We are behind on tech but will be pulling lots of money now, so we can buy our way back into tech. Zimbabwe will fall as soon as we can get 4-5 cavs down there. Good luck!
The Game
(1) For reasons I can't understand, the Greeks do NOT draft any rifles in their capitol (?) Maybe they don't have nationalism... no, they definitely do. Oh well, good for us.
My recent string of terrible luck continues as we are unable to take Athens (sigh). I just am not cut out to be a warmonger. I get Industrialization from Hammurabi for 390g and two luxuries. That was by far the best deal out there. Another assault on Athens will take place next turn. (2) Whatever the case before, the Greeks have upgraded to rifles now. 3 out of 4 cannons miss (of course... I stand by my resolve that pre-artillery bombardment is a waste of shields) but since I'm in a kinda silly mood I attack anyway. The result: our knights take no losses and we take the city.
Well, if that doesn't show that the combat system in Civ3 is heavily dependent on luck, nothing does. Our knights are beat up, but I decide to press the attack on Sparta instead of waiting and healing up first. I don't want to give them time to draft more rifles. (3) Now this is too funny:
We are now at war with the mighty Zulus.
That ought to be difficult... Alex has not upgraded his hoplites in Sparta to rifles...and we get a great leader Maximus in the first battle! Nice! There were quite a few hoplites in Sparta, but the next to last knight we get produces this message: Always my favorite to get.
It was close there, as all 5 elite knights are at 1 or 2hp. Now the question is what to use the leader on? I have a choice between Magellan, Newton, Shakespeare, Bach's and Women's Suffrage. Let's see: Bach's only covers one continent so it's out, Newton and Shakespeare are laughable, and we would build Suffrage only for denial value to the AI civs. Call me crazy, but Magellan's is most useful to us in this scenario. Maximus heads back to the main island to build it (more secure area). (4) We could really use another luxury, as our deal for spices just wore off, but at the moment it's too expensive to buy them. However, we will have silks as soon as Athens' borders expand. Unfortunately we can't rush it because the Greeks are still resisting us there (?) Fortunately, Sparta never went into resistance so I rush the temple there. We will have another luxury in 5 turns. Using the ship movement trick that is an exploit in the RB Epics, I get Maximus to Rome where he rushes Magellans. (This is the first, and probably only time I will ever get the chance to use this!) It's still going to take us some time to reach Zululand though.
(5) Uneventful; I upgraded 5 caravals to galleons though. With 5 movement thanks to Magellan's, we will be able to island-hop with ease. I can also pull back research without delaying a turn, so I do so.
(6) More movement.
(7) *Sigh* I guess I almost should have expected this:
Worst luck EVER on culture flips. I have never seen it this bad in all my other games of Civ3. Maybe it's the tiny map? We had Sparta for only 4 turns before it flipped. From now on, we really need to raze EVERYTHING. Sadly, we lost the two elite knights that were still healing in the city. And we also lost the 200g it cost to rush a temple in there. Grrr...
(8) Temple rushed in Athens to get the silks inside our borders. Let's hope ATHENS doesn't flip on us... Cannons will land and start bombarding Zimbabwe next turn.
(9) Zimbabwe is defended by pikes. There are also a lot of archers and Impis running around on the island...
The AI really doesn't do well with a OCC. Let's see how Shaka deals with my task force of 6 cannons, 2 rifles, and 4 knights. (10) Wacky - we lose 2 sources of iron in the same turn, and one pops back in. Shaka has responded by pulling most of his Impis back into Zimbabwe. We discover Military Tradition; all research turned OFF again. 3 out of 4 cannons hit against defending pikes. Unfortunately, there are at least 5 defenders in Zimbabwe... First two pikes die with no damage taken, the next two force our knights to retreat with no damage. I am pulling the hurt knights back to be upgraded to cavs.
Current orders: We're low on military. We need more cavalry above all, but I don't think we'll be able to overrun another civ anytime soon. Infantry are coming soon, and to take them out we will need lots of artillery (NOT cannon) support. In two turns, we will be able to build Wall Street, afterward keep treasury above 1000g. We are behind on tech but will be pulling lots of money now, so we can buy our way back into tech. Zimbabwe will fall as soon as we can get 4-5 cavs down there. Good luck!
The Game
T-hawk
Transcend
Does everyone on the roster know the flipping formula? IIRC, the chance for City X, owned by Civ A, to flip to Civ B is:
Nationals of Civ B in City X (resisters count double) + Number of X's 21 tiles within the cultural borders of B - Number of A's garrison units in X (this term used to be later in the formula; it was changed in 1.16.)
Multiply by the ratio of distances (calculated by Pythagorean) to the civs' capitals (FP does NOT count). Multiply by the ratio of the civ-wide total cultures. x2 if City X is rioting. x0.5 if it's in WLTKD. x2 if City X had more historical culture for B than for A (which will be always true for war-zone cities.)
Multiply it by some constant factor, based on government, that hasn't been nailed down yet. It's around 1%.
What does NOT matter is the absolute cultural value of either City X or Civ B's infringing cities - only the borders matter. (So rushing a library after a temple does not help other than in reaching 100 culture sooner.) Courthouses don't affect it either, I think.
It's ALWAYS a random chance checked on each turn, which means that very improbable flips can happen, and seemingly sure-thing flips may never. The chance is checked on each turn, independently for each possible Civ B (any civ with a foreign national in the city or controlling one of the 21 tiles.)
Nationals of Civ B in City X (resisters count double) + Number of X's 21 tiles within the cultural borders of B - Number of A's garrison units in X (this term used to be later in the formula; it was changed in 1.16.)
Multiply by the ratio of distances (calculated by Pythagorean) to the civs' capitals (FP does NOT count). Multiply by the ratio of the civ-wide total cultures. x2 if City X is rioting. x0.5 if it's in WLTKD. x2 if City X had more historical culture for B than for A (which will be always true for war-zone cities.)
Multiply it by some constant factor, based on government, that hasn't been nailed down yet. It's around 1%.
What does NOT matter is the absolute cultural value of either City X or Civ B's infringing cities - only the borders matter. (So rushing a library after a temple does not help other than in reaching 100 culture sooner.) Courthouses don't affect it either, I think.
It's ALWAYS a random chance checked on each turn, which means that very improbable flips can happen, and seemingly sure-thing flips may never. The chance is checked on each turn, independently for each possible Civ B (any civ with a foreign national in the city or controlling one of the 21 tiles.)
That formula hasn't changed for this game. The only thing that has changed it:
- Tiny map
- more civs than usual
By that formula, a tiny map should actually favour us -- comparing 1st ring cities on tiny vs 1st ring cities on standard maps, the standard map 1st ring cities will be relatively closer to their respective capitals than they are on a tiny map, and our capital will be further away on a standard map. The only difference is because there are more civs, there are more enemy capitals in the game for any given city to be close to.
The real discrepancy here is probably the culture factor. Face it, as Romans our culture stinks... and we're going up against religious and scientific civs at every turn. While we're pretty much ignored everything but temples, and gotten those late, the other civs have probably been pumping out cheap temples and/or libraries at the earliest possible opportunities, expanding their borders and building up culture, since there's no war between them to slow their infrastructure buildouts. Moreover, we've been operating without garrison troops to pacify resisters and reduce flip chances (we'd need a TON of such anyway even in size 1 cities due to the all the enemy tiles in radius), which hasn't helped, and we can't easily import lux to make WLTKD a factor since we'd need harbours everywhere to do it. All this adds up to the deck being stacked way against us as far as flip odds go; hence, eminent flippage every time we conquer a city.
Check the histogram for total culture and see how we stack up! I bet it ain't pretty...
- Tiny map
- more civs than usual
By that formula, a tiny map should actually favour us -- comparing 1st ring cities on tiny vs 1st ring cities on standard maps, the standard map 1st ring cities will be relatively closer to their respective capitals than they are on a tiny map, and our capital will be further away on a standard map. The only difference is because there are more civs, there are more enemy capitals in the game for any given city to be close to.
The real discrepancy here is probably the culture factor. Face it, as Romans our culture stinks... and we're going up against religious and scientific civs at every turn. While we're pretty much ignored everything but temples, and gotten those late, the other civs have probably been pumping out cheap temples and/or libraries at the earliest possible opportunities, expanding their borders and building up culture, since there's no war between them to slow their infrastructure buildouts. Moreover, we've been operating without garrison troops to pacify resisters and reduce flip chances (we'd need a TON of such anyway even in size 1 cities due to the all the enemy tiles in radius), which hasn't helped, and we can't easily import lux to make WLTKD a factor since we'd need harbours everywhere to do it. All this adds up to the deck being stacked way against us as far as flip odds go; hence, eminent flippage every time we conquer a city.
Check the histogram for total culture and see how we stack up! I bet it ain't pretty...
Zed,
I was thinking the exact same thing regarding flips. I almost always build early temples so I don't have much flipping in my single player games.
Lee,
I am really opposed to razing cities because I think it just slows the game down. Even dealing with a few flips is better than rebuilding to size 6 and above cities if you can get them through conquest IMO. Just don't station troops in the cities that have high flip risks. The culture flip is WAY over-vilified and taking a city back is just another chance to promote a unit or get a great leader if you have a bunch of troops sitting outside of it.
Sullla,
I didn't research MT because it didn't seem to matter against the greeks. If my initial scouts had seen lots of riflemen then I probably would have pulled back the invasion as Zed suggested. Instead I took a chance focusing on no-research and gambling by the time we got the greeks MT would be available and THEN we modernize our army. Plus, if we upgraded to calvary before attacking Greece we would have lost a bunch of elite knights from the Aztec campaign and never have gotten that leader.
Question for you:
Why did you choose to pay a lump sum gold amount over GPT? I almost always choose GPT because it has much less impact to the AI as they work better using big sums of money at once to rush things rather than getting it in a trickle. Plus, if they break the deal we get a break. Humans deal with the trickle much better and that's why it kills the AI to use GPT. Am I missing something?
I was thinking the exact same thing regarding flips. I almost always build early temples so I don't have much flipping in my single player games.
Lee,
I am really opposed to razing cities because I think it just slows the game down. Even dealing with a few flips is better than rebuilding to size 6 and above cities if you can get them through conquest IMO. Just don't station troops in the cities that have high flip risks. The culture flip is WAY over-vilified and taking a city back is just another chance to promote a unit or get a great leader if you have a bunch of troops sitting outside of it.
Sullla,
I didn't research MT because it didn't seem to matter against the greeks. If my initial scouts had seen lots of riflemen then I probably would have pulled back the invasion as Zed suggested. Instead I took a chance focusing on no-research and gambling by the time we got the greeks MT would be available and THEN we modernize our army. Plus, if we upgraded to calvary before attacking Greece we would have lost a bunch of elite knights from the Aztec campaign and never have gotten that leader.
Question for you:
Why did you choose to pay a lump sum gold amount over GPT? I almost always choose GPT because it has much less impact to the AI as they work better using big sums of money at once to rush things rather than getting it in a trickle. Plus, if they break the deal we get a break. Humans deal with the trickle much better and that's why it kills the AI to use GPT. Am I missing something?
